Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Mike.

Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as
Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits
the most hostile environments.
"Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation.

-- Rachel
http://www.Gnarlodious.com/Cogent/Cogent.html


Entity Mike Lyle spoke thus:
Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Mike.

Obviously it is an American name. Only in America is everything with small
scale-like leafs called a "cedar". Wondering how Casuarina escaped ...
perhaps it smells wrong
PvR

Gnarlodious schreef
Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as
Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and
inhabits the most hostile environments.
"Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation.

-- Rachel

=========
Entity Mike Lyle spoke thus:
Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Mike.

Gnarlodious wrote in message news:b2394982c555783ecbf6e42c9f85661a@TeraNews.. .
Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as
Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits
the most hostile environments.
"Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation.

-- Rachel
http://www.Gnarlodious.com/Cogent/Cogent.html


Entity Mike Lyle spoke thus:
[...]
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Sorry: I can't have made myself clear. I was asking about the new name
I've met in the American source I quoted: "salt cedar".

("Tamarisk" is from Latin; though it's not known how it got there.
There may be an Arabic connection; but if so, it doesn't seem to be
reflected in modern Arabic.)

Any info on salt cedar?

Mike.

(Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com...
Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Mike.

The more common spelling is one word, "saltcedar". It's unrelated to
true cedars, but it has scalelike leaves resembling those of the
cedars. The name refers to its ability to survive on brackish water,
excreting the salt from its stems and leaves. Nothing attractive about
the name; it is one of the most noxious weeds in the western U.S.,
where it was imported as an ornamental and escaped; considerable
resources are expended on its control.

--
Chris Green

Dear All,
Just checked in Hareuveni. The Hebrew for Tamarisk is Eshel, similar
to the Arabic Athal. The Latin for Tamarisk is Tamarix, so I guess the
English comes from the Latin. But where the Latin comes from I have no
idea (yet!). Will think about it.
Best Wishes,
Martin

Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as
Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits
the most hostile environments.
"Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation.

-- Rachel

Mike Lyle schreef
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Sorry: I can't have made myself clear. I was asking about the new name
I've met in the American source I quoted: "salt cedar".

+ + +
Actually, there appears to be no such name at this link.
It is all over the net anyway.
+ + +

Any info on salt cedar?

Mike.

+ + +
I guess you will have to go over the American literature of the last 150?
years or so to find where it first appeared. The reason why looks easy.
PvR

Mike Lyle wrote:

Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

The Dictionary of American English (1938) gives two citations for "salt
cedar," one from 1881, the other 1895 (that one refers to the coast of
Texas and southern California).

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Donna Richoux wrote:

Mike Lyle wrote:

Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

The Dictionary of American English (1938) gives two citations for "salt
cedar," one from 1881, the other 1895 (that one refers to the coast of
Texas and southern California).

OED2 also has 1881 as the earliest citation (from Harper's Magazine).
Depending which government site you believe, tamarisk/saltcedar was
first imported to the US in either 1837 or the 1850s:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/1999/990708.htm
http://www.nps.gov/whsa/tamarisk.htm

(Christopher Green) wrote in message . com...
(Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com...
Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Mike.

The more common spelling is one word, "saltcedar". It's unrelated to
true cedars, but it has scalelike leaves resembling those of the
cedars. The name refers to its ability to survive on brackish water,
excreting the salt from its stems and leaves. Nothing attractive about
the name; it is one of the most noxious weeds in the western U.S.,
where it was imported as an ornamental and escaped; considerable
resources are expended on its control.

I don't know that the plant's invasiveness outside its proper habitat
makes the *name* unattractive! but of course it's a matter of taste,
and not really important here.

I was wondering if anybody had some dated examples which might help us
find out when the name was first used in print.

Mike.

"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message . ..
Mike Lyle schreef
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Sorry: I can't have made myself clear. I was asking about the new name
I've met in the American source I quoted: "salt cedar".

+ + +
Actually, there appears to be no such name at this link.
It is all over the net anyway.
+ + +

I'm very sorry: I copied the wrong link. Here's the right one:
http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/Biota/tamarisk.htm

[...]
I guess you will have to go over the American literature of the last 150?
years or so to find where it first appeared.[...]

I could do that, certainly. Meanwhile, I live in hope that somebody
reading this may have some information on its first printed use.

Mike.

(Mike Lyle) wrote (17 Jun 2003) in
om /
alt.usage.english:

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Mike.

It can't be that old, since COD10 has

salt cedar
· n. N. Amer. a European tamarisk with reddish-brown branches and
feathery grey foliage. [Tamarix gallica.]

NOAD has almost the same entry, adding that the family is Tamaricaceae.

'Tis strange that the baby Oxfords cited above have the American term
"salt cedar," but neither AHD4 nor MW10CD do.

The Britannica agrees that this term names not all 54 species of
tamarix: "The salt cedar, or French tamarisk (T. gallica), is planted on
seacoasts for shelter; it is cultivated in the United States from South
Carolina to California."

No, I can't tell you the history of this term.



--
Martin Ambuhl
now exiled to
Hurricane Bait, Texas

In Israel the shrub is known as Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of
vanilla while in bloom and inhabits the most hostile environments. "Tamar" is
actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation. BRBR

The word Tamarisk is from the Latin Tamarix. I have known people who cannot
pronounce Tamarisk (or asterisk either) and call it Tamarix no matter how it is
spelled.
In Hebrew the name is Eshel.
Tamar is actually the date fruit in Hebrew. The date palm tree is Tomer.
Incidentally, the Biblical passages which refer to milk and honey or other
fruits and honey, really mean dates, not bee honey.
The reason Tamarisk is called salt-cedar is because it is so tolerant of
brackish water. It will draw salty water up from its roots and transpire it
through the leaves, leaving a coating of salt crystals on the leaves. If you
stand under a large Tamarisk on a hot dry day, the moist air coming from the
leaves is cooling and refreshing. That is why Abraham planted a Tamarisk tree
in Beersheba.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

(Martin Hodson) wrote in message . com...
Dear All,
Just checked in Hareuveni. The Hebrew for Tamarisk is Eshel, similar

masoretic 'e:*sh*el

to the Arabic Athal. The Latin for Tamarisk is Tamarix, so I guess the

'a*th*l (the heb. and 1ar. words are cognate, PS */*th*/ Heb. *sh* ,
`Ar. *th* is a regular correspondance

English comes from the Latin. But where the Latin comes from I have no
idea (yet!). Will think about it.
Best Wishes,
Martin

Not absolutely sure, but it sounds Arabic. In Israel the shrub is known as
Tamarisk, where it has a strong smell of vanilla while in bloom and inhabits
the most hostile environments.
"Tamar" is actually a Date Palm, there may be some non-botanical relation.

this seems to be the Eric Partridge, "Origins", who sees a possible
relation to `ar. tamr , tamar (i.e. from some semitic langauge) "date
palm"


-- Rachel

(Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com...
(Christopher Green) wrote in message . com...
(Mike Lyle) wrote in message . com...
Note two-group posting: I hope nobody will mind.

European readers will be familiar with tamarisks as robustly
salt-tolerant but innocent seaside trees or shrubs; US readers, I find
from sci.botany, may know the various species as unstoppable invaders
in certain conditions. At
http://internet.cybermesa.com/~bludevil/P6160002.JPG
the attractive name "salt cedar" is given as an alternative.

Does anybody know the pedigree of the new, presumably American, name?
What is the oldest printed use we have? It's not in OED1, where
*tamarisk" is cited from 1400.

Mike.

The more common spelling is one word, "saltcedar". It's unrelated to
true cedars, but it has scalelike leaves resembling those of the
cedars. The name refers to its ability to survive on brackish water,
excreting the salt from its stems and leaves. Nothing attractive about
the name; it is one of the most noxious weeds in the western U.S.,
where it was imported as an ornamental and escaped; considerable
resources are expended on its control.

I don't know that the plant's invasiveness outside its proper habitat
makes the *name* unattractive! but of course it's a matter of taste,
and not really important here.

Maybe in the sense that "rat" can be said not to be an unattractive
name :-)

Saltcedar, or salt cedar (the one-word and two-word forms are often
interchanged in the same work), usually refers to T. ramosissima and
other tamarisks that are invasive and destructive in the western U.S.
For example, on Google, 19 of the first 20 hits on 'saltcedar or "salt
cedar"' describe the tree as invasive or a noxious weed, or give
information on eradication programs.

--
Chris Green