Thesis: all fruits that are vegetables are berries
PvR

In article , [P
van Rijckevorsel] wrote...

Thesis: all fruits that are vegetables are berries
PvR

No. Okra is a woody capsule when ripe.

cheers

[P van Rijckevorsel] wrote...
Thesis: all fruits that are vegetables are berries
PvR

mel turner schreef
No. Okra is a woody capsule when ripe.

cheers

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Oh, well, it looked good for a few moments!
Come to think of it beans are not berries either.
PvR

In article ,
[i] wrote...
In article ,
[P van Rijckevorsel] wrote...

Thesis: all fruits that are vegetables are berries

Would "berries" include "pepos"? [Probably it should.]

PvR

No. Okra is a woody capsule when ripe.

And of course there are unripe pods of legumes [e.g, snow
peas, green beans] that are eaten as vegetables.

Others?

Maize has a "caryopsis", and "corn-on-the-cob" is universally
called a vegetable.

Is an avocado a regarded as a "vegetable" or an oily
nonsweet "fruit"? If a "vegetable", is it a drupe or a 1-seeded
berry? Drupe, as I recall. There reportedly is a thin stony
endocarp, not just a seed coat.

Olives are also drupes. Do they count as "vegetables"?

Plantains are probably "berries" as easily as cucumbers and
squash are.

Ok, another. What's a breadfruit? It's eaten as a vegetable and
is clearly not a berry, at any rate.

So, I think the thesis probably needs some modification.

cheers

mel turner schreef
Would "berries" include "pepos"? [Probably it should.]

+ + +
Yes
+ + +

Is an avocado a regarded as a "vegetable" or an oily
nonsweet "fruit"? If a "vegetable", is it a drupe or a 1-seeded
berry? Drupe, as I recall. There reportedly is a thin stony
endocarp, not just a seed coat.

+ + +
The lecture I attended had them as berries, but the lecturer was notably
unsure of his ground, making some other errors as well. Actually we were
worried also about Callicarpa. The local flora (the equivalent of Stewart
Robert Hinsley's Stace) describes them as berry-like drupes (which is
wonderful for education purposes).

Their being drupes is supported by
http://www.biosurvey.ou.edu/shrub/caam2.htm

one of the examples of a drupe with multiple stones in them, I suppose.
Hard to demonstrate (their being drupes) in the field anyway!
PvR

mel turner schreef
Is an avocado a regarded as a "vegetable" or an oily
nonsweet "fruit"? If a "vegetable", is it a drupe or a 1-seeded
berry? Drupe, as I recall. There reportedly is a thin stony
endocarp, not just a seed coat.

+ + +
I am not sure. I don't seem to have very many books at hand to go into the
matter. However "Fruits of the Guianan flora", by van Roosmalen, says berry.

Websites tend to avoid the question but this one is in favor of berry:
http://cal.nbc.upenn.edu/poison/plan...e/lectavoc.htm

It seems to me that there is regular on this NG who knows all about
avocados, and who might be willing to put in a definite word ;-)
PvR

Avocado is a one-seeded berry. The papery membrane surrounding the cotyledons
is seedcoat. In the Mexican (Persea americana ssp. drymifolia) and Guatemalan
(P. americana ssp. nubigena) races, there is a single seedcoat. In the West
Indian race (P. americana ssp. americana), the coat is separated into two
distinct layers. But I've never heard anyone suggest that the outer one is
endocarp.

MMMavocado schreef
Avocado is a one-seeded berry. The papery membrane surrounding the
cotyledons is seedcoat. In the Mexican (Persea americana ssp. drymifolia)
and Guatemalan (P. americana ssp. nubigena) races, there is a single
seedcoat. In the West Indian race (P. americana ssp. americana), the coat is
separated into two distinct layers. But I've never heard anyone suggest
that the outer one is endocarp.

+ + +
Thank you!
Well, Mel, it is official now ...
PvR

Avocado is a one-seeded berry.

How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries?
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Avocado is a one-seeded berry.

Iris Cohen schreef
How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries?

+ + +
He just explained that. In avocado the tissue arising out of the carpel that
is closest to the seed is fleshy. An avocado consists of exocarp, mesocarp
and seed.

In a drupe the seed is inside a 'stone' which means that the tissue arising
out of the carpel closest to the seed is quite hard. A drupe consists of
exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed.
PvR

And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry when
in fact it is not.

The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry.
Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to do
with the definition.
If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default.
So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in them?


P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message
...
Avocado is a one-seeded berry.

Iris Cohen schreef
How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries?

+ + +
He just explained that. In avocado the tissue arising out of the carpel
that
is closest to the seed is fleshy. An avocado consists of exocarp, mesocarp
and seed.

In a drupe the seed is inside a 'stone' which means that the tissue
arising
out of the carpel closest to the seed is quite hard. A drupe consists of
exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed.
PvR

Cereoid-UR12- schreef
And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry
when in fact it is not.

+ + +
A banana is berry by default, it is not worthwhile to come up with a
different term. Since plantains are eaten more or less as vegetables these
support the thesis!
+ + +

The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry.

+ + +
By "classical" you mean the ancient Romans? Or maybe the Greeks?
+ + +

Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to
do with the definition.

+ + +
That is only because you are using the "classical definition". If you were
to look at contemporary definitions you would find otherwise
+ + +

If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default.

+ + +
Nope. It is less and less surprising you are confused about bananas.
+ + +

So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in
them?

+ + +
Depends on the presence of an endocarp. Easy, isn't it?
PvR

The same way you are a schmendrick by default, Rinkytink.

It shows the true extent of your lack of enlightenment on the subject. It
does appear that you never do your own homework.

In Spjut, R.W. (1994) A SYSTEMATIC TREATMENT OF FRUIT TYPES. Memoires of the
N. Y. Bot. Gard. 70: 93, the fruit of a banana would be considered to be a
Pepo! The use of the term is not restricted to the Cucurbitaceae. The more
specific term that has been given is a Musidium.


P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message
...
Cereoid-UR12- schreef
And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry
when in fact it is not.

+ + +
A banana is berry by default, it is not worthwhile to come up with a
different term. Since plantains are eaten more or less as vegetables these
support the thesis!
+ + +

The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry.

+ + +
By "classical" you mean the ancient Romans? Or maybe the Greeks?
+ + +

Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to
do with the definition.

+ + +
That is only because you are using the "classical definition". If you were
to look at contemporary definitions you would find otherwise
+ + +

If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default.

+ + +
Nope. It is less and less surprising you are confused about bananas.
+ + +

So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in
them?

+ + +
Depends on the presence of an endocarp. Easy, isn't it?
PvR

In article ,
wrote...

MMMavocado schreef
Avocado is a one-seeded berry. The papery membrane surrounding the
cotyledons is seedcoat. In the Mexican (Persea americana ssp. drymifolia)
and Guatemalan (P. americana ssp. nubigena) races, there is a single
seedcoat. In the West Indian race (P. americana ssp. americana), the coat is
separated into two distinct layers. But I've never heard anyone suggest
that the outer one is endocarp.

+ + +
Thank you!
Well, Mel, it is official now ...

I wasn't quite completely convinced by the above, since I'd seen
some equally authoritative-sounding [for all that's worth!]
statements elsewhere that conflicted. [But see below for strong
support.]

I'd hesitated at first because I'd vaguely remembered reading somewhere
that avocados actually varied as to whether there was an appreciable
development of a hard endocarp [possibly the same differences pointed
to above?], and thus would vary as to whether the fruit would be
classified as a drupe or as a 1-seeded berry. I then checked briefly,
and initially didn't find anyone calling the fruit a berry, but did
find several calling it a drupe:

http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilson/pp/f97/fruits.htm or
http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...u98/fruits.htm

"II. Other fruits and fruit-like structures:
3. DRUPE: Single carpel, single-seeded, pericarp tissue
differentiated into THREE layers: EXOCARP, MESOCARP,
ENDOCARP:
Peach - exocarp with fuzz
Nectarine and Plum - exocarp without fuzz
Almond - exocarp/mesocarp removed, just PYRENE [=endocarp
and seed]
Avocado - endocarp VERY thin
Coconut - mesocarp fibrous ,[dispersal], testa thin,
endosperm both solid [meat] and liquid [milk]
Raspberry - an AGGREGATE (separate ovaries of one flower
joined together) of small drupes [druplets]"
[...]

"TAXA EXAMINED - FRUIT LAB
LOCAL NAME GENUS SPECIES FAMILY CLASS FRUIT TYPE Carpel#
[...]
Avocado Persea americana Lauraceae Dicot Drupe 1"

http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...g/laupage1.htm

"The Magnoliidae
Family Overview - The Laurales
Lauraceae - the Laurel Family

The typical fruit type for the family - a drupe - is encountered with
the avocado (Persea americana) - the exocarp is peeled, the mesocarp
is fleshy, and the endocarp is reduced to a thin, brown covering of
the avocado seed."

http://flora.huh.harvard.edu:8080/fl...taxon_id=10479

"5. Lauraceae Jussieu
Laurel Family
[..]

Fruits drupes, drupe borne on pedicel with or without persistent
tepals at base, or seated in ± deeplycup-shaped receptacle (cupule),
or enclosed in accrescent floral tube. Seed 1; endosperm absent."

[...]

"8. Persea Miller, Gard. Dict. Abr. ed. 4. 1754.
[...]

Drupe dark blue to black, nearly globose, borne on pedicel with tepals
persistent at base; cupule absent."

http://pas.byu.edu/AgHrt100/avocado.htm

"The fruit is a drupe, having a stony endocarp."

But the "berry" description is gaining strong support:

http://www.cas.muohio.edu/~meicenrd/...logy/dln11.htm

Lauraceae (Laurel Family)
[...]
"III. Fruit
A. 1-seeded berry or drupe"

http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/bot...sea/index.html

"This berry is truly unusual, not only because it is oily, not sweet,
but also because it never softens while still on the tree, where it
remains hard and continues to grow.

[...]

The peel or rind (exocarp) consists of an epidermis with a cuticle,
but in the warty fruits, the epidermis is replaced with cork from a
cork cambium. The warts or bumps are airy zones in the cork called
lenticels. Beneath this are several layers of cells, the innermost
ones being sclerenchyma. The thick, green mesocarp is composed of
millions of small parenchyma cells, some that are specialized for oil
storage and others that have smaller amounts of oils. The endocarp
consists of several layers of thin-walled cells. In the center, the
seed has a double seed coat, two cotyledons rich in starch, and a
relatively small embryo."

http://www.cabi-publishing.org/books...1993575Ch2.pdf

Seems like a nice botanical treatment of the avocado.

["p. 16" (= 2nd page of the link)]:

"Fruit small, globose to large fleshy, obovoid one-seeded berry in
subgenus _Persea_."

[p. 30]

"The avocado fruit is botanically a one-seeded berry (Fig. 2.3f),
and is very variable in size (50 g to nearly 2 kg), shape (round,
oval, pyriform), rind characteristics (thickness, surface features,
colour), flesh, and seed characteristics (size, tightness in cavity,
etc.). Cummings and Schroeder (1942) described basic fruit anatomy.

[...]

The innermost flesh is a rather indistinct endocarp, made up of a
few rows of smaller, more flattened parenchyma cells. It is botanically
incorrect to refer to the flesh as a mesocarp, as by definition the
flesh of a berry fruit comprises mesocarp plus endocarp."

[p 32]

"The role of previously unreported tissues in avocado fruit development
has been outlined by Steyn et al. (1993) they not that the vascularized
part of the seed coat is actually a pachychalaza, with the testa (the
contribution of the integuments) representing only a very small
non-vascularized portion."

refs cited above:

Cummings, K and Schroeder, C. A. 1942. Anatomy of the avocado fruit.
California Avocado SocietyYearbook 1942, 56-64.

Steyn, E. M. A., Robbertse, P. J., and D. Smith. 1993. An anatomical
study of ovary-to-cuke development in consistently low-producing trees
of the "Fuerte" avocado (Persea americana Mill.) with special reference
to seed abortion. Sexual Plant Reproduction 6: 87-97.

cheers

In article ,
wrote...

And yet you insist the pulpy (not fleshy) fruit of a banana is a berry when
in fact it is not.

Why isn't it?

Well, I've seen a wild banana species with more or less dehiscent,
self-peeling rinds, but other than that dehiscence, why not call
it a "berry"?

I've seen bananas called thus, e.g.:

http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/Wilso...99/fruits2.htm

[I do recall a bright student in class stumping an instructor with

"Apart from not belonging to Cucurbitaceae, why isn't a banana a
'pepo'?"

The instructor had to agree that there was little or no
difference from the general definition of "pepo" that he'd given
the class.]

The classical definition of a drupe is that it is a one seeded berry.

Where can one find this definition? It's unfamiliar to me.

As I understand the usual definitions, "berries" can be one-seeded,
and "drupes" can be several-seeded, either with one several-seeded
stone or with several separate stones in one fruit.

See the "berries" of Ilex for an example of the latter form
of drupe:

http://biodiversity.uno.edu/delta/an...w/aquifoli.htm

"Fruit fleshy; indehiscent; a drupe. The drupes with separable
pyrenes (as many pyrenes as locules)."

Having a woody stone endocarp surrounding the seed has nothing at all to do
with the definition.

Not your "classical definition" perhaps, but it has everything to
do with the only botanical definition of "drupe" I'm familiar with.

If the fruit has two seeds, it automatically becomes a berry by default.

Unless there is a stony endocarp, in which case it's a drupe.

So what about those plants that have fleshy fruit with 1 to 3 seeds in them?

Berries or drupes, most likely, depending on whether there are
hard stony endocarps present.

P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message
...
Avocado is a one-seeded berry.

Iris Cohen schreef
How does it differ from a drupe, like peaches and cherries?

+ + +
He just explained that. In avocado the tissue arising out of the carpel
that
is closest to the seed is fleshy. An avocado consists of exocarp, mesocarp
and seed.

The question seems to be, is there a thin hard endocarp present
in avocados or not? Is the apparent seed coat really just a seed
coat? Accounts I've seen differ, but

http://www.cabi-publishing.org/books...1993575Ch2.pdf

seems to definitively say "it's a berry".

In a drupe the seed is inside a 'stone' which means that the tissue
arising
out of the carpel closest to the seed is quite hard. A drupe consists of
exocarp, mesocarp, endocarp and seed.

Well, technically, all fruits will consist of these three pericarp
layers, but they obviously differ in their patterns of histological
differentiation. Drupes have fleshy mesocarps and stony endocarps.

cheers