We are the downtrodden and dispossesed, the self-torturing, the
disenfranchised convicts, drug and alcohol addicts, the unemployed and
unemployable.

I don't know who Walter is, but you have a valid point. I don't disagree.
However, this is a botany newsgroup. If you really want to do something about
your situation, you might contact the American Horticultural Therapy
Association, http://www.ahta.org/.
Gardening and other plant related activities have a proven record of changing
the lives of hitherto hopeless people.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

All he needs is a pair of rose-colored glasses.

I don't know about Australia, but the problems he mentioned are extremely
serious in this country. One out of four African-Americans between about 15 and
45 is involved with the criminal justice system. Bush's much-touted No Child
Left Behind law is only half funded.
About 30 years ago there was a tremendous push to get mental patients out of
the large state hospitals and back into the community. The only trouble was
that nowhere near enough money or authority was put into seeing that the
patients received adequate care and supervision. The result is that our
homeless shelters and prisons are full of mentally ill people who are not
receiving proper care.
What has that to do with botany or AHTA? I will never forget 20 years ago when
I was involved in a prison literacy program, I worked with some young men who
were learning disabled, most of them from the slums. One day I brought in some
spring flowers, and labeled them in English and Spanish. One of the men, about
21, told me he had NEVER BEFORE SEEN A REAL FLOWER. Some of the state prison
systems, notably in Florida, have had some very successful horticulture
programs.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

that number of African-American males of that age have a criminal record
involving violent crime and have made themselves unhirable for life because
they mistakenly thought it would be cool to be "gangstas". Who's fault is that?


Let's not play the blame game. There is enough fault in both the black
community and the country as a whole to go around. I was just pointing out one
of the facts in the "us versus them" dilemma that the original writer was
describing. The community has a choice. You can continue to blame "them," drug
users, minorities, mentally ill, the homeless, etc., or you can choose to do
some little thing to bridge the gap.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Never mentioned any specific race, sweetie. The racism is all in your mind.

What was said was true regardless of which ever race you are trying to
attribute it to.

There is no doubt that these lost youth are the product of a long history of
abuse in the home, by their presumed peers and in prison. You can't undo all
the brainwashing by simply putting a smiley face on and handing them a
bouquet of flowers. They lack respect for any authority figure and potential
threat. That is what you are.

Go ahead and name five "black" botanists, Iris.


Iris Cohen wrote in message
...
Now I think that this discussion is getting very silly and descending to
racist
stereotypes. Exactly the "us vs. them" mentality that the original writer
decried. Interesting that we haven't heard from any black botanists.
The tragedy of Lee Boyd Malvo is a good example of the problem. He would
have
made a productive citizen if the right mentor had established a
relationship
with him at an early age. Instead, he got hooked up with a demon who
turned him
into a monster. And the demon himself probably had a similar history. And
it
has nothing directly to do with color. Remember, the majority of hopeless
cases
the writer was talking about are white.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Never mentioned any specific race, sweetie. The racism is all in your mind.

What was said was true regardless of which ever race you are trying to
attribute it to.

There is no doubt that these lost youth are the product of a long history of
abuse in the home, by their presumed peers and in prison. You can't undo all
the brainwashing by simply putting a smiley face on and handing them a
bouquet of flowers. They lack respect for any authority figure and potential
threat. That is what you are.

Go ahead and name five "black" botanists, Iris.


Iris Cohen wrote in message
...
Now I think that this discussion is getting very silly and descending to
racist
stereotypes. Exactly the "us vs. them" mentality that the original writer
decried. Interesting that we haven't heard from any black botanists.
The tragedy of Lee Boyd Malvo is a good example of the problem. He would
have
made a productive citizen if the right mentor had established a
relationship
with him at an early age. Instead, he got hooked up with a demon who
turned him
into a monster. And the demon himself probably had a similar history. And
it
has nothing directly to do with color. Remember, the majority of hopeless
cases
the writer was talking about are white.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

The point is that these sociopaths have absolutely no respect for women, no
matter how well-meaning they are. She did not go into a tough neighborhood,
she had brought the punks into a recently yuppiefied section to do labor in
construction to develop a skill.

Obviously not in a well-planned manner, & not with a recruitment program to
choose those who would benefit. The plan was bound to fizzle.

That was something that was completely lost on their addled simplistic
criminal brains. They had written themselves off as hopeless their entire
lives.

Exactly. In order for this to happen, their parents, teachers, friends, and
community had to write them off first. With some exceptions, people are not
born with a "write-me-off" gene.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

In article ,
[Iris Cohen] wrote...

We are the downtrodden and dispossesed, the self-torturing, the
disenfranchised convicts, drug and alcohol addicts, the unemployed and
unemployable.

I don't know who Walter is, but you have a valid point. I don't disagree.
However, this is a botany newsgroup. If you really want to do something about
your situation, you might contact the American Horticultural Therapy
Association, http://www.ahta.org/.
Gardening and other plant related activities have a proven record of changing
the lives of hitherto hopeless people.

This was some sort of weird automated spam. The same message was sent
to a very large number of newsgroups, all on the same day: [each with
different odd messages addressed to different names in the "subject:"
line -- "zebediah, do you live in a gentrified neighborhood? "]

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%...e=UTF-8&scorin
g=r&filter=0

or

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=au...ing=r&filter=0

found about 100 screens of identical hits. Hope it's not someone's
successful trial run, but that's likely...

cheers

A few years ago, there was a well-meaning, naive white woman just like you,
Iris, that thought she was helping such "disadvantaged youth" by giving them
jobs helping to renovate abandoned houses in the inner city. They raped and
murdered her in one of the old houses, robbing her of her money, taking her
credit cards and stealing her car for a joyride. So much for trying to
rehabilitate the criminally insane and trying to "bridge the gap". Welcome
to the real world.


Iris Cohen wrote in message
...
that number of African-American males of that age have a criminal
record
involving violent crime and have made themselves unhirable for life
because
they mistakenly thought it would be cool to be "gangstas". Who's fault is
that?


Let's not play the blame game. There is enough fault in both the black
community and the country as a whole to go around. I was just pointing out
one
of the facts in the "us versus them" dilemma that the original writer was
describing. The community has a choice. You can continue to blame "them,"
drug
users, minorities, mentally ill, the homeless, etc., or you can choose to
do
some little thing to bridge the gap.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Why not back to Africa, from whence they came?

OK, I'll say it........
It's time to license people to have children, for two reasons:
1/ The world is not underpopulated.
2/ The abysmal level of care shown to children by many parents.

In the good old days 'marriage' was such a license because of the three
things necessary for the raising of children, vis:

1/ Money,
2/ More money,
3/ Still more money.

Every hardworking taxpayer has a right to demand his money is spent
efficiently, and also...
Marriage is a business - not a love-fest.




"Cereoid-UR12-" wrote in message
om...
Maybe we should send them all to Australia?

They should feel at home there.

BTW, its not that "One out of four African-Americans between about 15 and
45
is involved with the criminal justice system", its that number of
African-American males of that age have a criminal record involving
violent
crime and have made themselves unhirable for life because they mistakenly
thought it would be cool to be "gangastas". Who's fault is that?


Iris Cohen wrote in message
...
All he needs is a pair of rose-colored glasses.

I don't know about Australia, but the problems he mentioned are
extremely
serious in this country. One out of four African-Americans between about
15 and
45 is involved with the criminal justice system. Bush's much-touted No
Child
Left Behind law is only half funded.
About 30 years ago there was a tremendous push to get mental patients
out
of
the large state hospitals and back into the community. The only trouble
was
that nowhere near enough money or authority was put into seeing that the
patients received adequate care and supervision. The result is that our
homeless shelters and prisons are full of mentally ill people who are
not
receiving proper care.
What has that to do with botany or AHTA? I will never forget 20 years
ago
when
I was involved in a prison literacy program, I worked with some young
men
who
were learning disabled, most of them from the slums. One day I brought
in
some
spring flowers, and labeled them in English and Spanish. One of the men,
about
21, told me he had NEVER BEFORE SEEN A REAL FLOWER. Some of the state
prison
systems, notably in Florida, have had some very successful horticulture
programs.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the
oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

A few years ago, there was a well-meaning, naive white woman just like you,
Iris, that thought she was helping such "disadvantaged youth" by giving them
jobs helping to renovate abandoned houses in the inner city. They raped and
murdered her in one of the old houses, robbing her of her money, taking her
credit cards and stealing her car for a joyride. So much for trying to
rehabilitate the criminally insane and trying to "bridge the gap". Welcome
to the real world.


Iris Cohen wrote in message
...
that number of African-American males of that age have a criminal
record
involving violent crime and have made themselves unhirable for life
because
they mistakenly thought it would be cool to be "gangstas". Who's fault is
that?


Let's not play the blame game. There is enough fault in both the black
community and the country as a whole to go around. I was just pointing out
one
of the facts in the "us versus them" dilemma that the original writer was
describing. The community has a choice. You can continue to blame "them,"
drug
users, minorities, mentally ill, the homeless, etc., or you can choose to
do
some little thing to bridge the gap.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Why not back to Africa, from whence they came?

If you follow that logically, every Caucasian wrongdoer in Australia would be
deported to Europe.

It's time to license people to have children, for two reasons:
1/ The world is not underpopulated.
2/ The abysmal level of care shown to children by many parents.

It might not be a bad idea, but impossible to enforce. Look at the disapproval
China has been getting from some quarters, just for trying to limit their
population growth.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Why not back to Africa, from whence they came?

OK, I'll say it........
It's time to license people to have children, for two reasons:
1/ The world is not underpopulated.
2/ The abysmal level of care shown to children by many parents.

In the good old days 'marriage' was such a license because of the three
things necessary for the raising of children, vis:

1/ Money,
2/ More money,
3/ Still more money.

Every hardworking taxpayer has a right to demand his money is spent
efficiently, and also...
Marriage is a business - not a love-fest.




"Cereoid-UR12-" wrote in message
om...
Maybe we should send them all to Australia?

They should feel at home there.

BTW, its not that "One out of four African-Americans between about 15 and
45
is involved with the criminal justice system", its that number of
African-American males of that age have a criminal record involving
violent
crime and have made themselves unhirable for life because they mistakenly
thought it would be cool to be "gangastas". Who's fault is that?


Iris Cohen wrote in message
...
All he needs is a pair of rose-colored glasses.

I don't know about Australia, but the problems he mentioned are
extremely
serious in this country. One out of four African-Americans between about
15 and
45 is involved with the criminal justice system. Bush's much-touted No
Child
Left Behind law is only half funded.
About 30 years ago there was a tremendous push to get mental patients
out
of
the large state hospitals and back into the community. The only trouble
was
that nowhere near enough money or authority was put into seeing that the
patients received adequate care and supervision. The result is that our
homeless shelters and prisons are full of mentally ill people who are
not
receiving proper care.
What has that to do with botany or AHTA? I will never forget 20 years
ago
when
I was involved in a prison literacy program, I worked with some young
men
who
were learning disabled, most of them from the slums. One day I brought
in
some
spring flowers, and labeled them in English and Spanish. One of the men,
about
21, told me he had NEVER BEFORE SEEN A REAL FLOWER. Some of the state
prison
systems, notably in Florida, have had some very successful horticulture
programs.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the
oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Why not back to Africa, from whence they came?

If you follow that logically, every Caucasian wrongdoer in Australia would be
deported to Europe.

It's time to license people to have children, for two reasons:
1/ The world is not underpopulated.
2/ The abysmal level of care shown to children by many parents.

It might not be a bad idea, but impossible to enforce. Look at the disapproval
China has been getting from some quarters, just for trying to limit their
population growth.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

A few years ago, there was a well-meaning, naive white woman just like you,

murdered her

Such tragedies do happen. I assure you I am not nearly so naive. Projects in
the inner city, or anywhere else, need to be properly organized & supervised.
People who want to help should do so within the framework of existing
structure. That is why I suggest that they do so through the Salvation Army,
scouting, community centers, Habitat for Humanity, etc. Of course people who go
into a tough neighborhood alone are asking for trouble. Some of these same
undersocialized young men, reached young enough and in an appropriate setting,
are salvageable. Don't write them all off.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

A few years ago, there was a well-meaning, naive white woman just like you,

murdered her

Such tragedies do happen. I assure you I am not nearly so naive. Projects in
the inner city, or anywhere else, need to be properly organized & supervised.
People who want to help should do so within the framework of existing
structure. That is why I suggest that they do so through the Salvation Army,
scouting, community centers, Habitat for Humanity, etc. Of course people who go
into a tough neighborhood alone are asking for trouble. Some of these same
undersocialized young men, reached young enough and in an appropriate setting,
are salvageable. Don't write them all off.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)