I think some form of water lily in an Egyptian tomb was induced to grow. It
looked just like modern ones.


"Miss Chanandler Bong" wrote in message
om...
Are seeds alive or not? Seeds have been
found in the desert and that are 4000 years
old, but when put in moist soil, they grow.

So where does the life come from? Is it generated
when conditions are right? Or was the seed alive
but dormant? Do the conditions make life? Can't
find answers - I don't think anyone knows.

You really should see a doctor about your frequent black-outs and incoherent
messages.

You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are always
meeting new people. You probably already know that or have already forgotten
it by now.


"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message
...
I keep hoping for a breakthrough: someday you will manage to add up one
plus
one (or not).
PvR

Cereus-validus schreef
Too bad you are totally incapable of giving a straight answer to a
question, van Rwijnckpfevpnorselvichov.

So this is your way of saying you don't know?

Or is it you are having another senior moment and you have completely
forgotten what you were talking about?

You really should see a doctor about your frequent black-outs and incoherent
messages.

You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are always
meeting new people. You probably already know that or have already forgotten
it by now.


"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message
...
I keep hoping for a breakthrough: someday you will manage to add up one
plus
one (or not).
PvR

Cereus-validus schreef
Too bad you are totally incapable of giving a straight answer to a
question, van Rwijnckpfevpnorselvichov.

So this is your way of saying you don't know?

Or is it you are having another senior moment and you have completely
forgotten what you were talking about?

You really should see a doctor about your frequent black-outs and incoherent
messages.

You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are always
meeting new people. You probably already know that or have already forgotten
it by now.


"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message
...
I keep hoping for a breakthrough: someday you will manage to add up one
plus
one (or not).
PvR

Cereus-validus schreef
Too bad you are totally incapable of giving a straight answer to a
question, van Rwijnckpfevpnorselvichov.

So this is your way of saying you don't know?

Or is it you are having another senior moment and you have completely
forgotten what you were talking about?

Cereus-validus schreef
You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are always
meeting new people.

+ + +
Voice of experience speaking?

Cereus-validus schreef
You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are always
meeting new people.

+ + +
Voice of experience speaking?

Cereus-validus schreef
You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are always
meeting new people.

+ + +
Voice of experience speaking?

You got your tizzle all in a fizzle, you big drizzle?


"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message
...
Cereus-validus schreef
You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are
always
meeting new people.

+ + +
Voice of experience speaking?

You got your tizzle all in a fizzle, you big drizzle?


"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message
...
Cereus-validus schreef
You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are
always
meeting new people.

+ + +
Voice of experience speaking?

You got your tizzle all in a fizzle, you big drizzle?


"P van Rijckevorsel" wrote in message
...
Cereus-validus schreef
You know, the best thing about getting Alzheimer's is that you are
always
meeting new people.

+ + +
Voice of experience speaking?

I think the key to the characteristics of life concept is that the
organism as a species must meet them at some point in its collective
life cycle. They aren't all present in all individual organisms in a
species at all times. Some individual organisms will never reproduce
but some must or the species will not survive.

With a knowledgeable teacher, the criteria for life can get students
to develop some critical thinking skills. Even if it is, as you say,
"a parlor game, a fun and thought provoking exercise." Science and
biology classes need to have a little fun in them.

The characteristics of life concept in textbooks might be considered
one example of the tendency to try and generalize too much. Living
organisms are so diverse, simple generalizations are often difficult
or impossible. Biology textbooks often say all plants are
photosynthetic, but there are a few hundred parasitic species that
lack chlorophyll.

Seed dormancy and seed quiescence seem to be scientific terms. The
standard college textbook on Plant Propagation by H.T. Hartmann et al.
uses them; at least the edition I have does. They are useful terms
even if there are several different causes of seed dormancy.

Most flower and vegetable seeds and many tropical tree seeds are not
dormant even when sitting in a seed packet on a shelf. They germinate
promptly when given appropriate environmental conditions. If you don't
use the term quiescent for such seeds, how do you make the distinction
between seeds that lack dormancy and those that are dormant?

In contrast, the majority of temperate tree seeds usually exhibit
dormancy and need special treatment before they will germinate. Apple
and peach seeds require weeks or months of cold, moist conditions
before dormancy is overcome and they are able to germinate.
Honeylocust and Kentucky coffeetree require that the seed coat be
partly digested with acid or abraded mechanically before germination
can occur.

I only used the term suspended animation because it is a familiar term
in science fiction movies so students may relate to it. How should we
describe a seed during a thousand-year "sleep."?

I don't think that most of biology can be summarized by relatively few
theories like chemistry and physics because of the diversity of living
organisms. I have seen some attempts at putting biological knowledge
into a series of theories but the theories become so numerous and so
unwieldy that I'm not sure it really helps. I like the approach used
in Taiz and Zeiger's Plant Physiology text, where the chapter
subheadings are statements of important concepts.

I think Ambrose Bierce had the right idea in his Devil's Dictionary
definition for education - "That which discloses to the wise and
disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding."


David R. Hershey


Aaron wrote in message . ..
Hello David,

I think trying to set criteria for life is like playing a parlor game,
a fun and thought provoking excercise. I don't think the concept is
predictive as a scientific theory ought to be

We are discovering examples of living organisms that are able to shut
down metabolism completely when conditions dictate and resume
metabolism when conditions permit. .

The plant seeds are one instance. There are some fish and frogs that
can freeze solid so all circulation stops and all electrical activity
stops, yet they revive as the temperature rises. Tardigrades is
another example of an animal that goes into extreme metabolic shutdown
and will revive from that state after being subjected to outrageous
and extreme conditions.. We have a bona fide report of tuns being
hydrated and resuming activity after being in the dehydrated state for
120 years. (Brusca, R. C. & G. J. Brusca. 1990. Invertebrates.
Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, Massachusetts. )

Several of the five, six or seven criteria for life are metabolic
processes. . When metabolism shuts down, do these organisms die? I
don't think so, but I also don't think we should play semantic games
with terms like quiescent, dormant and suspended animation. These
terms are not scientific and do not elucidate conditions. If the
organism had died we would observe decomposition of the structure such
that metabolism would never return. IMO, there exists a coding in the
structure of living organisms that needs to be recognized for life to
continue when metabolism shuts down..
.
How do you see the "criteria for life" as being consistent with these
phenomena? I realize there is a catch-all criteria "response to the
environment," however historically that principle has referred to
different properties than raised here.

Aaron

Aaron

On 31 Mar 2004 16:11:54 -0800, (David Hershey) wrote:

"Miss Chanandler Bong" wrote in message . com...
Are seeds alive or not? Seeds have been
found in the desert and that are 4000 years
old, but when put in moist soil, they grow.

So where does the life come from? Is it generated
when conditions are right? Or was the seed alive
but dormant? Do the conditions make life? Can't
find answers - I don't think anyone knows.

A seed that germinates after 1,000 years would have been alive for
those 1,000 years but in a type of suspended animation. It may or may
not have been dormant. A dormant seed will not germinate even when
environmental conditions for germination are optimal. Many seeds are
not actually dormant, but merely quiescent. Quiescent seeds will
germinate promptly when exposed to environmental conditions optimal
for germination. Most flower, vegetable and lawn grass seeds are
quiescent rather than dormant.

Aaron posted some links about the Beal seed longevity experiment.
Fritz Went started a similar experiment in 1947 with seeds sealed in a
vacuum. He intended the experiment to last 360 years.

http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/b...tracts/1.shtml

Biology textbooks often list from four to seven characteristics of
life. They might be of use in your determination if seeds are alive.

http://128.252.223.112/posts/archive...6518.Bt.r.html
http://128.252.223.112/posts/archive...2472.Bt.r.html

Seeds are often very tough. For long term storage, seeds are routinely
kept at liquid nitrogen temperatures. NASA put thousands of tomato
seeds into orbit for over 5.5 years. The seeds germinated well when
returned to earth.

http://www.worldandi.com/specialrepo...er/Sa20717.htm

I think the key to the characteristics of life concept is that the
organism as a species must meet them at some point in its collective
life cycle. They aren't all present in all individual organisms in a
species at all times. Some individual organisms will never reproduce
but some must or the species will not survive.

With a knowledgeable teacher, the criteria for life can get students
to develop some critical thinking skills. Even if it is, as you say,
"a parlor game, a fun and thought provoking exercise." Science and
biology classes need to have a little fun in them.

The characteristics of life concept in textbooks might be considered
one example of the tendency to try and generalize too much. Living
organisms are so diverse, simple generalizations are often difficult
or impossible. Biology textbooks often say all plants are
photosynthetic, but there are a few hundred parasitic species that
lack chlorophyll.

Seed dormancy and seed quiescence seem to be scientific terms. The
standard college textbook on Plant Propagation by H.T. Hartmann et al.
uses them; at least the edition I have does. They are useful terms
even if there are several different causes of seed dormancy.

Most flower and vegetable seeds and many tropical tree seeds are not
dormant even when sitting in a seed packet on a shelf. They germinate
promptly when given appropriate environmental conditions. If you don't
use the term quiescent for such seeds, how do you make the distinction
between seeds that lack dormancy and those that are dormant?

In contrast, the majority of temperate tree seeds usually exhibit
dormancy and need special treatment before they will germinate. Apple
and peach seeds require weeks or months of cold, moist conditions
before dormancy is overcome and they are able to germinate.
Honeylocust and Kentucky coffeetree require that the seed coat be
partly digested with acid or abraded mechanically before germination
can occur.

I only used the term suspended animation because it is a familiar term
in science fiction movies so students may relate to it. How should we
describe a seed during a thousand-year "sleep."?

I don't think that most of biology can be summarized by relatively few
theories like chemistry and physics because of the diversity of living
organisms. I have seen some attempts at putting biological knowledge
into a series of theories but the theories become so numerous and so
unwieldy that I'm not sure it really helps. I like the approach used
in Taiz and Zeiger's Plant Physiology text, where the chapter
subheadings are statements of important concepts.

I think Ambrose Bierce had the right idea in his Devil's Dictionary
definition for education - "That which discloses to the wise and
disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding."


David R. Hershey


Aaron wrote in message . ..
Hello David,

I think trying to set criteria for life is like playing a parlor game,
a fun and thought provoking excercise. I don't think the concept is
predictive as a scientific theory ought to be

We are discovering examples of living organisms that are able to shut
down metabolism completely when conditions dictate and resume
metabolism when conditions permit. .

The plant seeds are one instance. There are some fish and frogs that
can freeze solid so all circulation stops and all electrical activity
stops, yet they revive as the temperature rises. Tardigrades is
another example of an animal that goes into extreme metabolic shutdown
and will revive from that state after being subjected to outrageous
and extreme conditions.. We have a bona fide report of tuns being
hydrated and resuming activity after being in the dehydrated state for
120 years. (Brusca, R. C. & G. J. Brusca. 1990. Invertebrates.
Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, Massachusetts. )

Several of the five, six or seven criteria for life are metabolic
processes. . When metabolism shuts down, do these organisms die? I
don't think so, but I also don't think we should play semantic games
with terms like quiescent, dormant and suspended animation. These
terms are not scientific and do not elucidate conditions. If the
organism had died we would observe decomposition of the structure such
that metabolism would never return. IMO, there exists a coding in the
structure of living organisms that needs to be recognized for life to
continue when metabolism shuts down..
.
How do you see the "criteria for life" as being consistent with these
phenomena? I realize there is a catch-all criteria "response to the
environment," however historically that principle has referred to
different properties than raised here.

Aaron

Aaron

On 31 Mar 2004 16:11:54 -0800, (David Hershey) wrote:

"Miss Chanandler Bong" wrote in message . com...
Are seeds alive or not? Seeds have been
found in the desert and that are 4000 years
old, but when put in moist soil, they grow.

So where does the life come from? Is it generated
when conditions are right? Or was the seed alive
but dormant? Do the conditions make life? Can't
find answers - I don't think anyone knows.

A seed that germinates after 1,000 years would have been alive for
those 1,000 years but in a type of suspended animation. It may or may
not have been dormant. A dormant seed will not germinate even when
environmental conditions for germination are optimal. Many seeds are
not actually dormant, but merely quiescent. Quiescent seeds will
germinate promptly when exposed to environmental conditions optimal
for germination. Most flower, vegetable and lawn grass seeds are
quiescent rather than dormant.

Aaron posted some links about the Beal seed longevity experiment.
Fritz Went started a similar experiment in 1947 with seeds sealed in a
vacuum. He intended the experiment to last 360 years.

http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/b...tracts/1.shtml

Biology textbooks often list from four to seven characteristics of
life. They might be of use in your determination if seeds are alive.

http://128.252.223.112/posts/archive...6518.Bt.r.html
http://128.252.223.112/posts/archive...2472.Bt.r.html

Seeds are often very tough. For long term storage, seeds are routinely
kept at liquid nitrogen temperatures. NASA put thousands of tomato
seeds into orbit for over 5.5 years. The seeds germinated well when
returned to earth.

http://www.worldandi.com/specialrepo...er/Sa20717.htm

I think the key to the characteristics of life concept is that the
organism as a species must meet them at some point in its collective
life cycle. They aren't all present in all individual organisms in a
species at all times. Some individual organisms will never reproduce
but some must or the species will not survive.

With a knowledgeable teacher, the criteria for life can get students
to develop some critical thinking skills. Even if it is, as you say,
"a parlor game, a fun and thought provoking exercise." Science and
biology classes need to have a little fun in them.

The characteristics of life concept in textbooks might be considered
one example of the tendency to try and generalize too much. Living
organisms are so diverse, simple generalizations are often difficult
or impossible. Biology textbooks often say all plants are
photosynthetic, but there are a few hundred parasitic species that
lack chlorophyll.

Seed dormancy and seed quiescence seem to be scientific terms. The
standard college textbook on Plant Propagation by H.T. Hartmann et al.
uses them; at least the edition I have does. They are useful terms
even if there are several different causes of seed dormancy.

Most flower and vegetable seeds and many tropical tree seeds are not
dormant even when sitting in a seed packet on a shelf. They germinate
promptly when given appropriate environmental conditions. If you don't
use the term quiescent for such seeds, how do you make the distinction
between seeds that lack dormancy and those that are dormant?

In contrast, the majority of temperate tree seeds usually exhibit
dormancy and need special treatment before they will germinate. Apple
and peach seeds require weeks or months of cold, moist conditions
before dormancy is overcome and they are able to germinate.
Honeylocust and Kentucky coffeetree require that the seed coat be
partly digested with acid or abraded mechanically before germination
can occur.

I only used the term suspended animation because it is a familiar term
in science fiction movies so students may relate to it. How should we
describe a seed during a thousand-year "sleep."?

I don't think that most of biology can be summarized by relatively few
theories like chemistry and physics because of the diversity of living
organisms. I have seen some attempts at putting biological knowledge
into a series of theories but the theories become so numerous and so
unwieldy that I'm not sure it really helps. I like the approach used
in Taiz and Zeiger's Plant Physiology text, where the chapter
subheadings are statements of important concepts.

I think Ambrose Bierce had the right idea in his Devil's Dictionary
definition for education - "That which discloses to the wise and
disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding."


David R. Hershey


Aaron wrote in message . ..
Hello David,

I think trying to set criteria for life is like playing a parlor game,
a fun and thought provoking excercise. I don't think the concept is
predictive as a scientific theory ought to be

We are discovering examples of living organisms that are able to shut
down metabolism completely when conditions dictate and resume
metabolism when conditions permit. .

The plant seeds are one instance. There are some fish and frogs that
can freeze solid so all circulation stops and all electrical activity
stops, yet they revive as the temperature rises. Tardigrades is
another example of an animal that goes into extreme metabolic shutdown
and will revive from that state after being subjected to outrageous
and extreme conditions.. We have a bona fide report of tuns being
hydrated and resuming activity after being in the dehydrated state for
120 years. (Brusca, R. C. & G. J. Brusca. 1990. Invertebrates.
Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, Massachusetts. )

Several of the five, six or seven criteria for life are metabolic
processes. . When metabolism shuts down, do these organisms die? I
don't think so, but I also don't think we should play semantic games
with terms like quiescent, dormant and suspended animation. These
terms are not scientific and do not elucidate conditions. If the
organism had died we would observe decomposition of the structure such
that metabolism would never return. IMO, there exists a coding in the
structure of living organisms that needs to be recognized for life to
continue when metabolism shuts down..
.
How do you see the "criteria for life" as being consistent with these
phenomena? I realize there is a catch-all criteria "response to the
environment," however historically that principle has referred to
different properties than raised here.

Aaron

Aaron

On 31 Mar 2004 16:11:54 -0800, (David Hershey) wrote:

"Miss Chanandler Bong" wrote in message . com...
Are seeds alive or not? Seeds have been
found in the desert and that are 4000 years
old, but when put in moist soil, they grow.

So where does the life come from? Is it generated
when conditions are right? Or was the seed alive
but dormant? Do the conditions make life? Can't
find answers - I don't think anyone knows.

A seed that germinates after 1,000 years would have been alive for
those 1,000 years but in a type of suspended animation. It may or may
not have been dormant. A dormant seed will not germinate even when
environmental conditions for germination are optimal. Many seeds are
not actually dormant, but merely quiescent. Quiescent seeds will
germinate promptly when exposed to environmental conditions optimal
for germination. Most flower, vegetable and lawn grass seeds are
quiescent rather than dormant.

Aaron posted some links about the Beal seed longevity experiment.
Fritz Went started a similar experiment in 1947 with seeds sealed in a
vacuum. He intended the experiment to last 360 years.

http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/b...tracts/1.shtml

Biology textbooks often list from four to seven characteristics of
life. They might be of use in your determination if seeds are alive.

http://128.252.223.112/posts/archive...6518.Bt.r.html
http://128.252.223.112/posts/archive...2472.Bt.r.html

Seeds are often very tough. For long term storage, seeds are routinely
kept at liquid nitrogen temperatures. NASA put thousands of tomato
seeds into orbit for over 5.5 years. The seeds germinated well when
returned to earth.

http://www.worldandi.com/specialrepo...er/Sa20717.htm

David Hershey schreef
Seed dormancy and seed quiescence seem to be scientific terms.

+ + +
They certainly appear to enjoy wide circulation, e.g:
http://www.steve.gb.com/science/seeds.html
PvR

David Hershey schreef
Seed dormancy and seed quiescence seem to be scientific terms.

+ + +
They certainly appear to enjoy wide circulation, e.g:
http://www.steve.gb.com/science/seeds.html
PvR