"Cereus-validus..." wrote in
om:

"Iris Cohen" wrote in message
...
Don't non-flowering plants count? BRBR

Don't be silly. The spermatophytes or Magnoliophyta are generally
referred to
as the "higher plants" colloquially, just as the vertebrates are
referred to as
the higher animals. It is not a value judgement. All I meant was
that you would
not find seed-bearing epiphytes in the Pacific Northwest because
the climate is
too cold.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody
Allen




"All I meant was that you would not find seed-bearing epiphytes in
the Pacific Northwest because the climate is too cold."

I would disagree with that assertion. Its is more likely that few
if any epiphytic flowering plants are found in the Pacific
Northwest because of the lack of potential progenitors in the
region.


So with all the variety of epiphytic genera, families, orders, etc.
in the tropics, many of which must at some time had not had any
progenitors of the habit, and considering all the tropical islands
and continents with epiphytic taxa, you claim that it is a problem
with progenitors instead of some other factor. There is quite a lot
of variety within the temperate rain forest, but still a lack of
epiphytes. There are plenty of plants in the same families or genera
that produce tropical epiphytes there, for example Orchids, or
Gingers. The Hawaiian islands managed to produce a variety of
epiphytes, and they certainly started out with no progenitors of
anything.

Sean

The Hawaiian Islands are a bad example because all the epiphytic plants now
growing there were introduced by man as cultivated plants.

There are no epiphytic gingers.



"Sean Houtman" wrote in message
news:1106390052.aeaa4fa7b605105f67568eb630ccc25a@t eranews...
"Cereus-validus..." wrote in
om:

"Iris Cohen" wrote in message
...
Don't non-flowering plants count? BRBR

Don't be silly. The spermatophytes or Magnoliophyta are generally
referred to
as the "higher plants" colloquially, just as the vertebrates are
referred to as
the higher animals. It is not a value judgement. All I meant was
that you would
not find seed-bearing epiphytes in the Pacific Northwest because
the climate is
too cold.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody
Allen




"All I meant was that you would not find seed-bearing epiphytes in
the Pacific Northwest because the climate is too cold."

I would disagree with that assertion. Its is more likely that few
if any epiphytic flowering plants are found in the Pacific
Northwest because of the lack of potential progenitors in the
region.


So with all the variety of epiphytic genera, families, orders, etc.
in the tropics, many of which must at some time had not had any
progenitors of the habit, and considering all the tropical islands
and continents with epiphytic taxa, you claim that it is a problem
with progenitors instead of some other factor. There is quite a lot
of variety within the temperate rain forest, but still a lack of
epiphytes. There are plenty of plants in the same families or genera
that produce tropical epiphytes there, for example Orchids, or
Gingers. The Hawaiian islands managed to produce a variety of
epiphytes, and they certainly started out with no progenitors of
anything.

Sean

There are no epiphytic gingers.

A quick search turned up a number of epiphytic species of Hedychium and
Cautleya in Asia.


"Cereus-validus..." wrote in message
om...
The Hawaiian Islands are a bad example because all the epiphytic plants
now growing there were introduced by man as cultivated plants.

There are no epiphytic gingers.



"Sean Houtman" wrote in message
news:1106390052.aeaa4fa7b605105f67568eb630ccc25a@t eranews...
"Cereus-validus..." wrote in
om:

"Iris Cohen" wrote in message
...
Don't non-flowering plants count? BRBR

Don't be silly. The spermatophytes or Magnoliophyta are generally
referred to
as the "higher plants" colloquially, just as the vertebrates are
referred to as
the higher animals. It is not a value judgement. All I meant was
that you would
not find seed-bearing epiphytes in the Pacific Northwest because
the climate is
too cold.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody
Allen




"All I meant was that you would not find seed-bearing epiphytes in
the Pacific Northwest because the climate is too cold."

I would disagree with that assertion. Its is more likely that few
if any epiphytic flowering plants are found in the Pacific
Northwest because of the lack of potential progenitors in the
region.


So with all the variety of epiphytic genera, families, orders, etc.
in the tropics, many of which must at some time had not had any
progenitors of the habit, and considering all the tropical islands
and continents with epiphytic taxa, you claim that it is a problem
with progenitors instead of some other factor. There is quite a lot
of variety within the temperate rain forest, but still a lack of
epiphytes. There are plenty of plants in the same families or genera
that produce tropical epiphytes there, for example Orchids, or
Gingers. The Hawaiian islands managed to produce a variety of
epiphytes, and they certainly started out with no progenitors of
anything.

Sean

It is more likely that few if any epiphytic flowering plants are found in
the Pacific Northwest because of the lack of potential progenitors in the
region.

The Pacific Northwest is lousy with orchid growers & other gardeners. If there
were any chance of success, I'm sure they would have experimented with tying
epiphytes to trees long ago, the way they do in Hawaii & Florida. I have never
heard of it being tried there, even with Epidendrum conopseum.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen

I'm not talking about escaped plants from cultivation. I was referring to
the possibility of epiphytic species evolving naturally from other species
already found in the area of the Pacific Northwest. The isolation of the
Olympic forest prevents any epiphytic flowering species from the far away
Southeastern US or Mexico from ever possibly migrating there. Any endemic
epiphytic flowering species would be unique to the region.


"Iris Cohen" wrote in message
...
It is more likely that few if any epiphytic flowering plants are found
in
the Pacific Northwest because of the lack of potential progenitors in the
region.

The Pacific Northwest is lousy with orchid growers & other gardeners. If
there
were any chance of success, I'm sure they would have experimented with
tying
epiphytes to trees long ago, the way they do in Hawaii & Florida. I have
never
heard of it being tried there, even with Epidendrum conopseum.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen

In article ,
Cereus-validus... wrote:
I'm not talking about escaped plants from cultivation. I was referring to
the possibility of epiphytic species evolving naturally from other species
already found in the area of the Pacific Northwest. The isolation of the
Olympic forest prevents any epiphytic flowering species from the far away
Southeastern US or Mexico from ever possibly migrating there. Any endemic
epiphytic flowering species would be unique to the region.

There are many species in the coastal flora of British Columbia that
also occur naturally in Kamchatka, Sakhalin and adjacent north Pacific
coastal areas. There are also a number of genera with closely related
species in similar areas on both sides of the north Pacific. The
distribution is an indication of climates during the interglacials,
when the two areas had a contiguous ecosystem.

I don't know how far down the west coast the temperate rainforest
extended during the glacials and interglacials, but during the last
glacial, most of the western US was much wetter than it is now. Even
10-20,000 years ago, most of the western US deserts were open forest
and grassland, with plentiful shallow lakes.

So not only was there a clear path for species to move from other parts
of North America, but also from temperate Asia. Of course, as Sean has
pointed out, epiphytes could readily have developed locally. I spent a
summer on the west coast of Vancouver Island long ago, and saw tree
branches densely covered with growing moss into which ferns and
flowering plants had rooted. I don't know if any of them were true
epiphytes, but it was certainly a great opportunity for a terrestrial
plant to evolve epiphytism. For that matter, I sometimes see
terrestrial flowering plants growing naturally in tree crotches here in
Toronto, a cold continental climate with a natural flora of deciduous
to mixed forest.

Btw, does anyone know if there are mistletoes native to the temperate
Pacific rainforest? These parasites are certainly common in moist
temperate areas in northern Europe. Or do parasitic plants that grow
on trees count as epiphytes?

Parasites do not count as epiphytes.


wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
Cereus-validus... wrote:
I'm not talking about escaped plants from cultivation. I was referring to
the possibility of epiphytic species evolving naturally from other species
already found in the area of the Pacific Northwest. The isolation of the
Olympic forest prevents any epiphytic flowering species from the far away
Southeastern US or Mexico from ever possibly migrating there. Any endemic
epiphytic flowering species would be unique to the region.

There are many species in the coastal flora of British Columbia that
also occur naturally in Kamchatka, Sakhalin and adjacent north Pacific
coastal areas. There are also a number of genera with closely related
species in similar areas on both sides of the north Pacific. The
distribution is an indication of climates during the interglacials,
when the two areas had a contiguous ecosystem.

I don't know how far down the west coast the temperate rainforest
extended during the glacials and interglacials, but during the last
glacial, most of the western US was much wetter than it is now. Even
10-20,000 years ago, most of the western US deserts were open forest
and grassland, with plentiful shallow lakes.

So not only was there a clear path for species to move from other parts
of North America, but also from temperate Asia. Of course, as Sean has
pointed out, epiphytes could readily have developed locally. I spent a
summer on the west coast of Vancouver Island long ago, and saw tree
branches densely covered with growing moss into which ferns and
flowering plants had rooted. I don't know if any of them were true
epiphytes, but it was certainly a great opportunity for a terrestrial
plant to evolve epiphytism. For that matter, I sometimes see
terrestrial flowering plants growing naturally in tree crotches here in
Toronto, a cold continental climate with a natural flora of deciduous
to mixed forest.

Btw, does anyone know if there are mistletoes native to the temperate
Pacific rainforest? These parasites are certainly common in moist
temperate areas in northern Europe. Or do parasitic plants that grow
on trees count as epiphytes?

wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
Cereus-validus... wrote:
I'm not talking about escaped plants from cultivation. I was referring to
the possibility of epiphytic species evolving naturally from other
species
already found in the area of the Pacific Northwest. The isolation of the
Olympic forest prevents any epiphytic flowering species from the far away
Southeastern US or Mexico from ever possibly migrating there. Any endemic
epiphytic flowering species would be unique to the region.

There are many species in the coastal flora of British Columbia that
also occur naturally in Kamchatka, Sakhalin and adjacent north Pacific
coastal areas. There are also a number of genera with closely related
species in similar areas on both sides of the north Pacific. The
distribution is an indication of climates during the interglacials,
when the two areas had a contiguous ecosystem.

I don't know how far down the west coast the temperate rainforest
extended during the glacials and interglacials, but during the last
glacial, most of the western US was much wetter than it is now. Even
10-20,000 years ago, most of the western US deserts were open forest
and grassland, with plentiful shallow lakes.

So not only was there a clear path for species to move from other parts
of North America, but also from temperate Asia. Of course, as Sean has
pointed out, epiphytes could readily have developed locally. I spent a
summer on the west coast of Vancouver Island long ago, and saw tree
branches densely covered with growing moss into which ferns and
flowering plants had rooted. I don't know if any of them were true
epiphytes, but it was certainly a great opportunity for a terrestrial
plant to evolve epiphytism. For that matter, I sometimes see
terrestrial flowering plants growing naturally in tree crotches here in
Toronto, a cold continental climate with a natural flora of deciduous
to mixed forest.

Btw, does anyone know if there are mistletoes native to the temperate
Pacific rainforest? These parasites are certainly common in moist
temperate areas in northern Europe. Or do parasitic plants that grow
on trees count as epiphytes?


On the south temperate coast of Australia mistletoe is common on Eucalypts.
Every back yard seems to have one.

Here is your call.

There are very few epiphytes in desert climates, they exist, but
they are rare. Wet climates produce many more species and numbers
of epiphytes.

Sean


This makes sense, because epiphytes require rain and moisture from
the air. Lacking roots can be a problem therefore.

Unless there are epiphitic cacti, growing on other cacti.
Which in turn support yet another smaller epiphitic cactus.... and
so on ad infinitum.

This humble writer challenges
Cereus.Epiphytum.XeroCactumHangAboutum to give a pictorial
example.........




He doesn't seem to be responding to his call, maybe there isn't
anyone home.

Most of the epiphytic cacti grow in the tropics, in rainforest or
near rainforest conditions.

Sean

wrote in
:

Btw, does anyone know if there are mistletoes native to the
temperate Pacific rainforest? These parasites are certainly
common in moist temperate areas in northern Europe. Or do
parasitic plants that grow on trees count as epiphytes?


There should be several kinds there, but parasites don't count as
epiphytes. The difference is that epiphytes use the host as
substrate only, using them for support, and not directly gaining
nutrients or water from them. Parasites often require a particular
species as a host, and take either water and minerals, or all of
their requirements from the host.

(A quick web search indicates that several species of Phoradendron
and Arceuthobium occur in the Pacific NW.)

Sean

"Sean Houtman" wrote in message
news:1106562454.aa32450145c33c8bff90cc81dfb4f186@t eranews...

Here is your call.

There are very few epiphytes in desert climates, they exist, but
they are rare. Wet climates produce many more species and numbers
of epiphytes.

Sean


This makes sense, because epiphytes require rain and moisture from
the air. Lacking roots can be a problem therefore.

Unless there are epiphitic cacti, growing on other cacti.
Which in turn support yet another smaller epiphitic cactus.... and
so on ad infinitum.

This humble writer challenges
Cereus.Epiphytum.XeroCactumHangAboutum to give a pictorial
example.........




He doesn't seem to be responding to his call, maybe there isn't
anyone home.

Most of the epiphytic cacti grow in the tropics, in rainforest or
near rainforest conditions.

Sean


Maybe Cereus.SeriouslyBonkum has repaired to the nearest desert to seek one
out.
We may not see him for a while.

He doesn't seem to be responding to his call, maybe there isn't anyone home.


He is now making fun of ignoramuses in rec.gardens.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"A tree never hits an automobile except in self defense." - Woody Allen