until you can tell the difference between a $10, $100, and $10,000 dollar
koi, get the $10 one. HOWEVER.... what is even more important is to find a
place sells healthy koi and you wont get one from petsmart for sure, and it
is unlikely you will get one from any old pond store. You need to find the
place that quarantines their koi for at least a couple weeks after getting
them in, and before they sell them to the public. of course you dont tell
them you are looking for quaratined koi, you ask them when they got the fish
in, or "when are you getting the fish in so I can be first in line to pick
the ones I want" and see if they bite on that.

Now, if what you want is a pond with koi, then that is really all you need
to know. If what you want is a koi pond, then you are going to have to
search on the net for discussions about the different types of koi, color,
desirable shape, etc. there are a lot of badly bred and raised koi out
there with bent backs, huge heads, etc. If your pond does well then
consider that you are going to be looking at that same gorgeous (or ugly)
koi for 50 years. Ingrid


"©anadian Ponder" " wrote in message
.com...
why can I buy koi at petsmart for under $10 and if I go to a pond store
they charge me over $50.

Does this have to do with pure breeds and mixed breeds ?

"drsolo" wrote in message
.com...
until you can tell the difference between a $10, $100, and $10,000 dollar
koi, get the $10 one. HOWEVER.... what is even more important is to find
a
place sells healthy koi and you wont get one from petsmart for sure, and
it
is unlikely you will get one from any old pond store.

In defense of PetsMart. I have bought healthy goldfish and kio (and otos and
plecos) from both their Nashville and Murfreesboro stores. I still have the
beautiful flame red koi from there. She was $2 about 6 years ago. The
others were sold off as I'm replacing them all with butterflies.

You need to find the
place that quarantines their koi for at least a couple weeks after getting
them in, and before they sell them to the public. of course you dont tell
them you are looking for quaratined koi, you ask them when they got the
fish
in, or "when are you getting the fish in so I can be first in line to pick
the ones I want" and see if they bite on that.

Not one place here has the space or facilities to quarantine fish.

Now, if what you want is a pond with koi, then that is really all you need
to know. If what you want is a koi pond, then you are going to have to
search on the net for discussions about the different types of koi, color,
desirable shape, etc. there are a lot of badly bred and raised koi out
there with bent backs, huge heads, etc. If your pond does well then
consider that you are going to be looking at that same gorgeous (or ugly)
koi for 50 years. Ingrid

Ugly fish can always be disposed of. Better to examine them carefully in
the bag before handing over your cash. Checking not only for ulcers and the
larger parasites, but the shape and proportions of the fish as well.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

drsolo wrote:
until you can tell the difference between a $10, $100, and $10,000 dollar
koi, get the $10 one. HOWEVER.... what is even more important is to find a
place sells healthy koi and you wont get one from petsmart for sure, and it
is unlikely you will get one from any old pond store.

Well said, Ingrid.....just wish we could get $10 Koi over here in the UK....


You need to find the
place that quarantines their koi for at least a couple weeks after getting
them in, and before they sell them to the public. of course you dont tell
them you are looking for quaratined koi, you ask them when they got the fish
in, or "when are you getting the fish in so I can be first in line to pick
the ones I want" and see if they bite on that.

The place I buy my fish already has posters all about where they get
their Koi and the fact that they come either from a certain place or are
QT'd there.....maybe MA should branch out into the US.....right now
those of us lucky enough get really good service and expertise.....


Now, if what you want is a pond with koi, then that is really all you need
to know. If what you want is a koi pond, then you are going to have to
search on the net for discussions about the different types of koi, color,
desirable shape, etc. there are a lot of badly bred and raised koi out
there with bent backs, huge heads, etc. If your pond does well then
consider that you are going to be looking at that same gorgeous (or ugly)
koi for 50 years.

I remember on rp someone posting some beautiful Koi pics - can't
remember if it was you, Jan or Roy but these were great looking fish but
at a price....until I really get into the keeping of Koi a nice healthy
looking fish, fed and kept correctly and thriving will suit me down to
the ground.....

Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
drsolo wrote:
until you can tell the difference between a $10, $100, and $10,000 dollar
koi, get the $10 one. HOWEVER.... what is even more important is to find
a
place sells healthy koi and you wont get one from petsmart for sure, and
it
is unlikely you will get one from any old pond store.

Well said, Ingrid.....just wish we could get $10 Koi over here in the
UK....


You need to find the
place that quarantines their koi for at least a couple weeks after
getting
them in, and before they sell them to the public. of course you dont
tell
them you are looking for quaratined koi, you ask them when they got the
fish
in, or "when are you getting the fish in so I can be first in line to
pick
the ones I want" and see if they bite on that.

The place I buy my fish already has posters all about where they get their
Koi and the fact that they come either from a certain place or are QT'd
there.....maybe MA should branch out into the US.....right now those of us
lucky enough get really good service and expertise.....


Now, if what you want is a pond with koi, then that is really all you
need
to know. If what you want is a koi pond, then you are going to have to
search on the net for discussions about the different types of koi,
color,
desirable shape, etc. there are a lot of badly bred and raised koi out
there with bent backs, huge heads, etc. If your pond does well then
consider that you are going to be looking at that same gorgeous (or ugly)
koi for 50 years.

I remember on rp someone posting some beautiful Koi pics - can't remember
if it was you, Jan or Roy but these were great looking fish but at a
price....until I really get into the keeping of Koi a nice healthy looking
fish, fed and kept correctly and thriving will suit me down to the
ground.....
======================
You said your yard was not that large. Since koi can reach quite a size you
may want to rethink turning so much of it into a pond. Even two adult koi
will need at least 1200 with good filtration and water changes. A 500g pond
would be suitable for a smaller yard. You can keep a nice group of real
pretty goldfish in something that size.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

I find it ironoiic that folks use a blue tub to view a fish in yet
some folks can do it in a plastic bag complete with printing on the
bag.Koi bought at a true koi farm or breeder if just general run of
themill fish or show quality, are always netted and viewin a blue
tub.....no way are koi viewed in a glass tank from the sides, or
through a plastic bag with labels and printing. Why bag a fish only to
reject it......it should be readily inspected long before the decision
to bag it is ebven brought up..... No there is no quality koi no
matter what colors they may have on them that are available at the
varioius pet store chains. ts just that they do not exist......pretty
perhaps to soome folks ugly to those that know koi and acceptable to
most, but they are far form being a quality koi., I owuld use them to
cycle a filter perhaps, but they will nver amount to much more than a
big fat koi pickedup at a chain store.....no matter what it ocsts.

As Ingrid said, until you can differentiate in cheap or high end koi
your best odds are stick with cheap. besides those fish need homes
too.But then what does one do with those so called pretty young fish
that grows up to be faded out ugly deformed monsters with bullhead
catfish heads and bent spines............pitch them in somoneelses
pond or toss em in the comppost...Its best to let em in Petco or
Petsmart and not have to deal with those problems inthe first
place....There just is not any such thing as a quality cheap koi or
any fish as far as that goes....and its more to the profile and fish
itself than its pretty colors or the water quality its kept in at the
store.....I looked and looked and looked and yhave yet to find a so
called flame red koi.......see there we are, we think we know koi and
try to fool folks yet were all just as ignorant in what a red koi
really is its certainly not flame red......so my observations stand.
There is a difference in those $5 and 50 dollar fish if yu know what
your looking at in most cases. Those that b uy and continue to buy
form places that do not QT koi are destined to be bitten one day and
it will happen.......the problems with not QT'oing koi are numerous
but then most view that as a waste of time..there is just too much
time and effort put into a proper pond to take chances with cheap fish
or any fish not properly QT'd. Now if yur just starting up a new pond
that may not be much of an issue if all koi are fromthe same
seller.......but its russian roulette placing koi that is not QT's for
at least 4-6 weeks prior to placing in an established populated
pond...


I could have saved a bunch of money when I stocked my pond, when I
was asked what qulaity of fish I was looking for.....big box store
vendor quality or decent possible show quality or top end.......it was
easy to see differences in them even to an inexperienced eye when
someone that knew what was what pointed them out, so the choice was a
no brainer for me.....and did not cost any more actually cost less
overall than if I bought em from the big box stores.


On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:11:26 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:


"drsolo" wrote in message
here.com...
until you can tell the difference between a $10, $100, and $10,000 dollar
koi, get the $10 one. HOWEVER.... what is even more important is to find
a
place sells healthy koi and you wont get one from petsmart for sure, and
it
is unlikely you will get one from any old pond store.

In defense of PetsMart. I have bought healthy goldfish and kio (and otos and
plecos) from both their Nashville and Murfreesboro stores. I still have the
beautiful flame red koi from there. She was $2 about 6 years ago. The
others were sold off as I'm replacing them all with butterflies.

You need to find the
place that quarantines their koi for at least a couple weeks after getting
them in, and before they sell them to the public. of course you dont tell
them you are looking for quaratined koi, you ask them when they got the
fish
in, or "when are you getting the fish in so I can be first in line to pick
the ones I want" and see if they bite on that.

Not one place here has the space or facilities to quarantine fish.

Now, if what you want is a pond with koi, then that is really all you need
to know. If what you want is a koi pond, then you are going to have to
search on the net for discussions about the different types of koi, color,
desirable shape, etc. there are a lot of badly bred and raised koi out
there with bent backs, huge heads, etc. If your pond does well then
consider that you are going to be looking at that same gorgeous (or ugly)
koi for 50 years. Ingrid

Ugly fish can always be disposed of. Better to examine them carefully in
the bag before handing over your cash. Checking not only for ulcers and the
larger parasites, but the shape and proportions of the fish as well.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Reel McKoi wrote:

You said your yard was not that large. Since koi can reach quite a size
you may want to rethink turning so much of it into a pond. Even two
adult koi will need at least 1200 with good filtration and water
changes. A 500g pond would be suitable for a smaller yard. You can
keep a nice group of real pretty goldfish in something that size.

Although I seem to recall telling you the size of my back garden (as we
call it in the UK) maybe a little bit of restating won't come amiss.....

The area I am thinking about and will be building my new pond is around
10 foot by around 8 foot which is at least 622 IMP galls if I only go
down 2 foot and I will be going deeper......my ultimate plan is to
convert the kiddy play area which is 16 foot by 20 foot (if not more)
into a Koi pond (which gives me almost 3200 IMP galls)......I rather
think that even both would be sufficient, however down to my lack of
experience I have already stated that the first pond will contain
shubunkins and goldfish and not Koi......

Oh, and that leaves a lot of garden for flowers, shrubs, veg and the
greenhouse plus lots of space to extend the house....don't make
assumptions....not all of us in the UK are space challenged....

Gill

Gill
There is no rocket science involved in keeping a koi......or a pond.
Its a no brainer. Keeping a smaller closed system such as a tankopf 20
gal is much harder and more of a headache. If you can provide decent
water, and odds are yu can if y do not decide to take short cuts and
stay on an established routine that is proven, and that info is out
there and also available here, buy what price fish yu can afford. I
bet some of those future marine fish are gonna cost a heck of a lot
more than most koi will, and are much more prone to kicking than a koi
is. Koi are pretty darn hardy and take a beating pretty good. Same
for goldies, they do not require a lot, just what they do need has to
be fairly decent.....and then there is even room for screwups.
Usuallay not the case with marine critters. Knowing a place has a
source for their koi and have them QT'd already before selling them is
already a big step most folks do not have, that, pay cheap prices at
chain stores.....and plop em in a tub for a week or two....and think
they have a qt'd koi of quality because its nice and bright and bold
in colors, when in all reality its a cull peddled off to a chain
store. Don't get me wrong, culls can be nice but there is a reason
fish are culled, and american bred fish are not as heavily culled as
japanese fish are.......Heck even those tanks of feeder comets have
some nice el cheapo comets in them as well so why would a vendor sell
them comets for 10 cents a piece when they also sell similar sized
fish for a buck or two.........because those fish are problematic and
a cull, and the american way is if it can be sold sell it and do not
worry about ethics involved in selling inferior fish.......


On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:34:06 CST, Gill Passman
wrote:

drsolo wrote:
until you can tell the difference between a $10, $100, and $10,000 dollar
koi, get the $10 one. HOWEVER.... what is even more important is to find a
place sells healthy koi and you wont get one from petsmart for sure, and it
is unlikely you will get one from any old pond store.

Well said, Ingrid.....just wish we could get $10 Koi over here in the UK....


You need to find the
place that quarantines their koi for at least a couple weeks after getting
them in, and before they sell them to the public. of course you dont tell
them you are looking for quaratined koi, you ask them when they got the fish
in, or "when are you getting the fish in so I can be first in line to pick
the ones I want" and see if they bite on that.

The place I buy my fish already has posters all about where they get
their Koi and the fact that they come either from a certain place or are
QT'd there.....maybe MA should branch out into the US.....right now
those of us lucky enough get really good service and expertise.....


Now, if what you want is a pond with koi, then that is really all you need
to know. If what you want is a koi pond, then you are going to have to
search on the net for discussions about the different types of koi, color,
desirable shape, etc. there are a lot of badly bred and raised koi out
there with bent backs, huge heads, etc. If your pond does well then
consider that you are going to be looking at that same gorgeous (or ugly)
koi for 50 years.

I remember on rp someone posting some beautiful Koi pics - can't
remember if it was you, Jan or Roy but these were great looking fish but
at a price....until I really get into the keeping of Koi a nice healthy
looking fish, fed and kept correctly and thriving will suit me down to
the ground.....

Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...


I find it ironoiic that folks use a blue tub to view a fish in yet
some folks can do it in a plastic bag complete with printing on the
bag.

Again you're talking high priced show fish and I'm talking pet fish. I'm
talking apples and you're talking onions. You cannot see the underside of a
koi when in a blue show tub. No pet stores here have blue tubs for people
to view the koi in before purchase.

Koi bought at a true koi farm or breeder if just general run of
themill fish or show quality, are always netted and viewin a blue
tub....

There are no koi farms here. I'm talking about Pond Stores and chain pet
shops.

.no way are koi viewed in a glass tank from the sides, or
through a plastic bag with labels and printing.

Printing is on one side of the bag if there is any printing at all.

Why bag a fish only to
reject it......it should be readily inspected long before the decision
to bag it is ebven brought up.....

I disagree. I've spotted ulcers on the underside of kio that were not
visible in the tanks they were in.

No there is no quality koi no
matter what colors they may have on them that are available at the
varioius pet store chains. ts just that they do not exist......pretty
perhaps to soome folks ugly to those that know koi and acceptable to
most, but they are far form being a quality koi., I owuld use them to
cycle a filter perhaps, but they will nver amount to much more than a
big fat koi pickedup at a chain store.....no matter what it ocsts.

I disagree. Some of my nicest koi are from pet stores.

As Ingrid said, until you can differentiate in cheap or high end koi
your best odds are stick with cheap. besides those fish need homes
too.But then what does one do with those so called pretty young fish
that grows up to be faded out ugly deformed monsters with bullhead
catfish heads and bent spines............pitch them in somoneelses
pond or toss em in the comppost...Its best to let em in Petco or
Petsmart and not have to deal with those problems inthe first
place....

Again I'm talking pond pets and you keep talking about show quality fish.
Few people would be willing to pay $1000 or more for a backyard pet,
especially where predators lurk.

There just is not any such thing as a quality cheap koi or
any fish as far as that goes....and its more to the profile and fish
itself than its pretty colors or the water quality its kept in at the
store.....I looked and looked and looked and yhave yet to find a so
called flame red koi......

You looked and looked and looked? I found mine at PetsMart for $2.00 a few
years ago.

.see there we are, we think we know koi and
try to fool folks yet were all just as ignorant in what a red koi
really is its certainly not flame red......so my observations stand.
There is a difference in those $5 and 50 dollar fish if yu know what
your looking at in most cases. Those that b uy and continue to buy
form places that do not QT koi are destined to be bitten one day and
it will happen......

No one quarantines koi here since no one has the facilities or space. So
that would mean no one in this area should buy pet koi.

.the problems with not QT'oing koi are numerous
but then most view that as a waste of time..there is just too much
time and effort put into a proper pond to take chances with cheap fish
or any fish not properly QT'd.

When QT fish are not available people will buy what they see in the local
stores. Most don't know much about QT and the diseases of pond fish.

Now if yur just starting up a new pond
that may not be much of an issue if all koi are fromthe same
seller.......but its russian roulette placing koi that is not QT's for
at least 4-6 weeks prior to placing in an established populated
pond...


I could have saved a bunch of money when I stocked my pond, when I
was asked what qulaity of fish I was looking for.....big box store
vendor quality or decent possible show quality or top end.......it was
easy to see differences in them even to an inexperienced eye when
someone that knew what was what pointed them out, so the choice was a
no brainer for me.....and did not cost any more actually cost less
overall than if I bought em from the big box stores.

Odd they would be cheaper than the big box stores. No matter where I get
fish I quarantine them for 21 days at the least and treat them all for
parasites. No problems for years now.........
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

There is a size for koi (and for goldfish) that seems to be a minimum for
good health. Koi should be at least 7 inches. If they are that size and
dont have a bent back, fused fins (for butterflys), ugly out of size
head.... then with good water and nutrition they generally wont develop
those. The colors arent stable, black especially fades in warmer water and
just generally over time. I know there are other unstable colors too. My
ugly fish have been ugly for quite a while, but they are part of the pond
and unless I move them to another of my ponds they arent going anywhere, I
certainly wouldnt kill them or hussle them off to a newbie death pond.
Ingrid

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
But then what does one do with those so called pretty young fish
that grows up to be faded out ugly deformed monsters with bullhead
catfish heads and bent spines
There just is not any such thing as a quality cheap koi or