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#46
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How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Hal wrote:
On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:22:42 CST, Derek Broughton wrote: You do have a liner? Yes. EPDM. I've tried bare root lilies before, and I haven't given up completely, just keep changing plans, because the last one didn't work. This year I have a converted hot tub with three lilies, two bare root. I had shubunkin in the tub, but couldn't keep the water quality up, so I removed the fish and began adding fertilizer to feed the bare root lilies. Ingrid is right, enough fertilizer turns the water green. Sometimes, that just means too much nitrogen. Increasing potassium and phosphorus for the rooted plants helps them compete with the algae. And note, that if you're not getting enough flowers, but the lilies are otherwise growing well, you probably have an excess of nitrogen, too. Goldfish can thrive in pretty poor water, so when you say you "couldn't keep the water quality up", it suggests to me that fertilizer (at least nitrogen) isn't your problem. I used to have a bath-tub pond by my front door. Every spring, I'd pull plants off the bottom of the big pond and replant the tub pond. One year I must have either included a goldfish egg or small fry with the plants. I never saw him until I dug up the pond in the fall. There had never been more than two inches of water above the soil in that tub (it was being used mostly for Lotus), and the goldfish was 8" long when I found him. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
#47
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How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Reel McKoi wrote:
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold winters. What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places like Wally World? They're various varieties of Odorata lilies - like you could pick up at Lowe's if we had Lowe's :-) Note, these are _old_ lilies - I routinely trim them to about 10" long in Spring, and sometimes they get so massive they drag their weights and float to the surface during the summer, then I have to divide them again. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
#48
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How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Altum wrote:
Derek Broughton wrote: Altum wrote: Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia. Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a proton and becomes ammonia. "most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not convinced your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but it doesn't seem valid to me. What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach That would be Henderson-Hasselbalch... equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium and pond chemistry. For those who don't know what Altum meant, there should be equal amounts of Ammonia & Ammonium in a pond with a pH of 9.2. That's _really_ high for a garden pond and the first thing I'd want to do is get it down. Since getting a pond down to about 8.4 is really pretty simple, and the ratio of ammonium:ammonia is about 10:1 at that pH, I'd suggest it's not as serious a situation as he says. See http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...hf/index.php#2 for a nice graph (slightly different from our situation because of salt water, but close enough). Now, if we're going to revise the argument and point out that it doesn't matter that _all_ of the ammonium won't instantly become ammonia, but that any amount of ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM), I'd pretty much have to agree and point out that that's one reason why planting in clay soils is usually recommended. If you're going to fertilize lilies, you should plant in a clay soil, and use solid fertilizers in the soil. Not much will migrate out of the clay before being used by the plant. However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
#49
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How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote: Derek Broughton wrote: Altum wrote: Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia. Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a proton and becomes ammonia. "most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not convinced your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but it doesn't seem valid to me. What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach That would be Henderson-Hasselbalch... ROFLMAO. Nice catch. But you see what I'm getting at - it doesn't matter what form the ammonia/ammonium is in when you add it to buffered water. If you add ANY form of ammonium salt or ammonia to typical alkaline pond water, some of it will end up as toxic NH3, with the ratio set by the pKa. There is no functional difference in a pond buffered with 100 ppm of carbonates between adding 0.1 ppm of ammonium salts or 0.1 ppm of household ammonia (mostly NH3). People shouldn't read a fertilizer label and think it's safe to put an ammonium salt into the _water column_ because it's not ammonia. equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium and pond chemistry. For those who don't know what Altum meant, there should be equal amounts of Ammonia & Ammonium in a pond with a pH of 9.2. That's _really_ high for a garden pond and the first thing I'd want to do is get it down. Since getting a pond down to about 8.4 is really pretty simple, and the ratio of ammonium:ammonia is about 10:1 at that pH, I'd suggest it's not as serious a situation as he says. I dunno. I've kept systems at pH 8.4 and if there is enough free NH4+/NH3 to show up on a typical test kit as the system cycles, it's enough that the fish will be flashing and jumpy. Koi and goldies are very tolerant of water conditions, but we all want to keep them in the best possible conditions. See http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...hf/index.php#2 for a nice graph (slightly different from our situation because of salt water, but close enough). Now, if we're going to revise the argument and point out that it doesn't matter that _all_ of the ammonium won't instantly become ammonia, but that any amount of ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM), I'd pretty much have to agree and point out that that's one reason why planting in clay soils is usually recommended. If you're going to fertilize lilies, you should plant in a clay soil, and use solid fertilizers in the soil. Not much will migrate out of the clay before being used by the plant. I'm a strong believer that any unnecessary ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM). Even the 10:1 ratio of ammonium to ammonia at pH 8.2 can cause long-term stress and problems at levels that are difficult to register on a test kit. But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies. I have many plants that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH, water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3 and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers. (And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting the fish.) Liquid Miracle-Gro was mentioned as a possibility for bare-root lilies and I stated that any fertilizer considered for fish pond water, not soil, must be completely ammonia-free. However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish. It can, but we're back to the Bad Thing(TM). -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
#50
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How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:35:15 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote: I used to have a bath-tub pond by my front door. Every spring, I'd pull plants off the bottom of the big pond and replant the tub pond. One year I must have either included a goldfish egg or small fry with the plants. I never saw him until I dug up the pond in the fall. There had never been more than two inches of water above the soil in that tub (it was being used mostly for Lotus), and the goldfish was 8" long when I found him. Goldfish are amazing. I find the biggest one's in my filter barrels. I didn't like the temperature swings in the converted hot tub. No heater, just sunshine, but the temperature rose to what I thought was drastic speeds and so warm the fish never surfaced. Algae growth was sometimes rapid and amazing, kept me busy cleaning the bucket filter and I never felt it was adequate. I kept a pump going from a mid section shelf for oxygen, but because they didn't surface, decided that was just cruel to fish and put them into another pond. They immediately changed, the next day they were up expecting food when I walked up, so I think I made a good choice by turning the hot tub into a plant pond. It is a bit small for all the plants I have in it, but I'll work that out as the summer progresses. Regards, Hal |
#51
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How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Altum wrote:
But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies. OK, we're pretty much on the same page. I have many plants that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH, water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3 and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers. YES! That really seems to be key. I'm not at all convinced that the nitrogen demands outstrip what's available - I have no trouble getting bare-root lilies to thrive in an unfertilized pond (with very little feeding of the fish), but it may well be necessary to add potassium. (And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting the fish.) Frankly, I don't think they breed like rabbits at all. At the least, it's generally hard for rabbits to breed underwater... Liquid Miracle-Gro was mentioned as a possibility for bare-root lilies and I stated that any fertilizer considered for fish pond water, not soil, must be completely ammonia-free. And I'm with you there. I missed the reference to liquid Miracle-Gro - I was responding to specific mention of ammonium-X fertilizers which are all available in solids. However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish. It can, but we're back to the Bad Thing(TM). I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're topping up your pond with treated tap water you need to be _really_ careful, but I'm certain it can be done without producing measurable ammonia/nitrite levels. -- derek - Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated moderators. |
#52
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How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote: But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies. OK, we're pretty much on the same page. I have many plants that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH, water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3 and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers. YES! That really seems to be key. I'm not at all convinced that the nitrogen demands outstrip what's available - I have no trouble getting bare-root lilies to thrive in an unfertilized pond (with very little feeding of the fish), but it may well be necessary to add potassium. I'm only speaking of my own setup in regards to nitrogen shortage. I'm sure it's not a problem for anyone with a lot of big koi or goldfish. In fact, my three half-barrels of WH, lilies, cannas, and dwarf papyrus could probably veggie filter a koi pond very nicely. If I don't fertilize some KNO3, I get zero nitrate on the test kit and the floating plants don't grow well. Old leaves die and new ones are smaller and yellowed. The half-dozen white clouds, 2 rosy reds, and a few small goldfish I keep to eat skeeters just don't keep up with three barrels full of plants in the summer sun. (And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting the fish.) Frankly, I don't think they breed like rabbits at all. At the least, it's generally hard for rabbits to breed underwater... LOL! Their breeding displays are a little flashier than rabbits... snip I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're topping up your pond with treated tap water you need to be _really_ careful, but I'm certain it can be done without producing measurable ammonia/nitrite levels. Certainly. Top-offs are a judgement call. I add a squirt of AmQuel myself, but my tap water is nasty and my water garden is small enough that it's affordable. -- My other fish and pond forum is: http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com |
#53
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UPDATE How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
Earlier in April I reported taking a large
hardy water lily out of its pot, dividing it, and leaving it out of the pot. (The other half went into another small pond.) I had put a stick fertilizer in among the mess of roots but otherwise it's a free- floating water lily. Leaves kept growing, and now I have a flower bloom. Apparently this particular hardy water lily doesn't require soil to function. Gail near San Antonio TX USA |
#54
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UPDATE How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Gail Futoran" wrote in message ... Leaves kept growing, and now I have a flower bloom. Apparently this particular hardy water lily doesn't require soil to function. ======================= I'm experimenting with one tied to a rock as Derek does. So far only a few puny leaves. All the others are already blooming or have buds. I suppose if I want flowers I'll have to pull it up and pot it with a chunk of fertilizer. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
#55
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UPDATE How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?
"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
... "Gail Futoran" wrote in message ... Leaves kept growing, and now I have a flower bloom. Apparently this particular hardy water lily doesn't require soil to function. ======================= I'm experimenting with one tied to a rock as Derek does. So far only a few puny leaves. All the others are already blooming or have buds. I suppose if I want flowers I'll have to pull it up and pot it with a chunk of fertilizer. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 Zone 6. Middle TN USA ISP: Hughes.net ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö Mine's about 4 years old with very large roots. Maybe younger plants are better off potted in soil. Gail |
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