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Old 06-04-2007, 08:35 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Hal wrote:

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:22:42 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

You do have a liner?


Yes. EPDM.

I've tried bare root lilies before, and I haven't given up completely,
just keep changing plans, because the last one didn't work. This year
I have a converted hot tub with three lilies, two bare root.

I had shubunkin in the tub, but couldn't keep the water quality up,
so I removed the fish and began adding fertilizer to feed the bare
root lilies. Ingrid is right, enough fertilizer turns the water
green.


Sometimes, that just means too much nitrogen. Increasing potassium and
phosphorus for the rooted plants helps them compete with the algae. And
note, that if you're not getting enough flowers, but the lilies are
otherwise growing well, you probably have an excess of nitrogen, too.

Goldfish can thrive in pretty poor water, so when you say you "couldn't keep
the water quality up", it suggests to me that fertilizer (at least
nitrogen) isn't your problem.

I used to have a bath-tub pond by my front door. Every spring, I'd pull
plants off the bottom of the big pond and replant the tub pond. One year I
must have either included a goldfish egg or small fry with the plants. I
never saw him until I dug up the pond in the fall. There had never been
more than two inches of water above the soil in that tub (it was being used
mostly for Lotus), and the goldfish was 8" long when I found him.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

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Old 06-04-2007, 08:35 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Reel McKoi wrote:


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to
water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold
winters.

What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they
native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places
like Wally World?


They're various varieties of Odorata lilies - like you could pick up at
Lowe's if we had Lowe's :-)

Note, these are _old_ lilies - I routinely trim them to about 10" long in
Spring, and sometimes they get so massive they drag their weights and float
to the surface during the summer, then I have to divide them again.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

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Old 06-04-2007, 10:21 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Altum wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote:


Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.
Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.


"most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not
convinced your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but
it doesn't seem valid to me.


What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that
number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to
go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach


That would be Henderson-Hasselbalch...

equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent
equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium
and pond chemistry.


For those who don't know what Altum meant, there should be equal amounts of
Ammonia & Ammonium in a pond with a pH of 9.2. That's _really_ high for a
garden pond and the first thing I'd want to do is get it down. Since
getting a pond down to about 8.4 is really pretty simple, and the ratio of
ammonium:ammonia is about 10:1 at that pH, I'd suggest it's not as serious
a situation as he says.

See http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...hf/index.php#2 for a nice
graph (slightly different from our situation because of salt water, but
close enough).

Now, if we're going to revise the argument and point out that it doesn't
matter that _all_ of the ammonium won't instantly become ammonia, but that
any amount of ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM), I'd pretty much have to agree
and point out that that's one reason why planting in clay soils is usually
recommended. If you're going to fertilize lilies, you should plant in a
clay soil, and use solid fertilizers in the soil. Not much will migrate
out of the clay before being used by the plant.

However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly
converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some
amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to
continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

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Old 06-04-2007, 11:43 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote:
Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.
Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.
"most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not
convinced your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but
it doesn't seem valid to me.

What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that
number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to
go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach


That would be Henderson-Hasselbalch...


ROFLMAO. Nice catch. But you see what I'm getting at - it doesn't
matter what form the ammonia/ammonium is in when you add it to buffered
water. If you add ANY form of ammonium salt or ammonia to typical
alkaline pond water, some of it will end up as toxic NH3, with the ratio
set by the pKa. There is no functional difference in a pond buffered
with 100 ppm of carbonates between adding 0.1 ppm of ammonium salts or
0.1 ppm of household ammonia (mostly NH3). People shouldn't read a
fertilizer label and think it's safe to put an ammonium salt into the
_water column_ because it's not ammonia.

equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent
equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium
and pond chemistry.


For those who don't know what Altum meant, there should be equal amounts of
Ammonia & Ammonium in a pond with a pH of 9.2. That's _really_ high for a
garden pond and the first thing I'd want to do is get it down. Since
getting a pond down to about 8.4 is really pretty simple, and the ratio of
ammonium:ammonia is about 10:1 at that pH, I'd suggest it's not as serious
a situation as he says.


I dunno. I've kept systems at pH 8.4 and if there is enough free
NH4+/NH3 to show up on a typical test kit as the system cycles, it's
enough that the fish will be flashing and jumpy. Koi and goldies are
very tolerant of water conditions, but we all want to keep them in the
best possible conditions.

See http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...hf/index.php#2 for a nice
graph (slightly different from our situation because of salt water, but
close enough).

Now, if we're going to revise the argument and point out that it doesn't
matter that _all_ of the ammonium won't instantly become ammonia, but that
any amount of ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM), I'd pretty much have to agree
and point out that that's one reason why planting in clay soils is usually
recommended. If you're going to fertilize lilies, you should plant in a
clay soil, and use solid fertilizers in the soil. Not much will migrate
out of the clay before being used by the plant.


I'm a strong believer that any unnecessary ammonia is a Bad Thing (TM).
Even the 10:1 ratio of ammonium to ammonia at pH 8.2 can cause
long-term stress and problems at levels that are difficult to register
on a test kit.

But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies. I have many plants
that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH,
water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged
swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the
plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3
and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers.
(And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting
the fish.)

Liquid Miracle-Gro was mentioned as a possibility for bare-root lilies
and I stated that any fertilizer considered for fish pond water, not
soil, must be completely ammonia-free.

However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly
converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some
amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to
continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish.


It can, but we're back to the Bad Thing(TM).

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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Old 07-04-2007, 06:41 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:35:15 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

I used to have a bath-tub pond by my front door. Every spring, I'd pull
plants off the bottom of the big pond and replant the tub pond. One year I
must have either included a goldfish egg or small fry with the plants. I
never saw him until I dug up the pond in the fall. There had never been
more than two inches of water above the soil in that tub (it was being used
mostly for Lotus), and the goldfish was 8" long when I found him.


Goldfish are amazing. I find the biggest one's in my filter barrels.

I didn't like the temperature swings in the converted hot tub. No
heater, just sunshine, but the temperature rose to what I thought was
drastic speeds and so warm the fish never surfaced. Algae growth was
sometimes rapid and amazing, kept me busy cleaning the bucket filter
and I never felt it was adequate. I kept a pump going from a mid
section shelf for oxygen, but because they didn't surface, decided
that was just cruel to fish and put them into another pond. They
immediately changed, the next day they were up expecting food when I
walked up, so I think I made a good choice by turning the hot tub into
a plant pond.

It is a bit small for all the plants I have in it, but I'll work that
out as the summer progresses.

Regards,

Hal



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Old 07-04-2007, 10:14 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Altum wrote:

But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies.


OK, we're pretty much on the same page.

I have many plants
that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH,
water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged
swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the
plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3
and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers.


YES! That really seems to be key. I'm not at all convinced that the
nitrogen demands outstrip what's available - I have no trouble getting
bare-root lilies to thrive in an unfertilized pond (with very little
feeding of the fish), but it may well be necessary to add potassium.

(And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting
the fish.)


Frankly, I don't think they breed like rabbits at all. At the least, it's
generally hard for rabbits to breed underwater...

Liquid Miracle-Gro was mentioned as a possibility for bare-root lilies
and I stated that any fertilizer considered for fish pond water, not
soil, must be completely ammonia-free.


And I'm with you there. I missed the reference to liquid Miracle-Gro - I
was responding to specific mention of ammonium-X fertilizers which are all
available in solids.

However, it's all complicated by the fact that bacteria are constantly
converting ammonia to nitrite & nitrate, and _any_ pond can remove some
amount of ammonia from the water - which is why so many people manage to
continually top up their ponds with tap water without killing the fish.


It can, but we're back to the Bad Thing(TM).


I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're topping up your pond
with treated tap water you need to be _really_ careful, but I'm certain it
can be done without producing measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

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Old 07-04-2007, 11:51 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote:

But this whole thing started with bare-root lilies.


OK, we're pretty much on the same page.

I have many plants
that take their sustenance from the water column in outdoor setups (WH,
water lettuce, elodea, watercress in the spillways, and even submerged
swordplants and grasses). The nitrogen and phosphate demand of the
plants far outstrips what the fish and foods provide. Add a little KNO3
and KH2PO4 to the water and I get healthy plants with lots of flowers.


YES! That really seems to be key. I'm not at all convinced that the
nitrogen demands outstrip what's available - I have no trouble getting
bare-root lilies to thrive in an unfertilized pond (with very little
feeding of the fish), but it may well be necessary to add potassium.


I'm only speaking of my own setup in regards to nitrogen shortage. I'm
sure it's not a problem for anyone with a lot of big koi or goldfish.
In fact, my three half-barrels of WH, lilies, cannas, and dwarf papyrus
could probably veggie filter a koi pond very nicely. If I don't
fertilize some KNO3, I get zero nitrate on the test kit and the floating
plants don't grow well. Old leaves die and new ones are smaller and
yellowed. The half-dozen white clouds, 2 rosy reds, and a few small
goldfish I keep to eat skeeters just don't keep up with three barrels
full of plants in the summer sun.

(And my bluefin killies breed like rabbits so I'm certainly not hurting
the fish.)


Frankly, I don't think they breed like rabbits at all. At the least, it's
generally hard for rabbits to breed underwater...


LOL! Their breeding displays are a little flashier than rabbits...

snip

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're topping up your pond
with treated tap water you need to be _really_ careful, but I'm certain it
can be done without producing measurable ammonia/nitrite levels.


Certainly. Top-offs are a judgement call. I add a squirt of AmQuel
myself, but my tap water is nasty and my water garden is small enough
that it's affordable.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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Old 25-04-2007, 07:52 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default UPDATE How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Earlier in April I reported taking a large
hardy water lily out of its pot, dividing it,
and leaving it out of the pot. (The other
half went into another small pond.) I
had put a stick fertilizer in among the
mess of roots but otherwise it's a free-
floating water lily.

Leaves kept growing, and now I have a
flower bloom. Apparently this particular
hardy water lily doesn't require soil to
function.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA

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Default UPDATE How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?


"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
Leaves kept growing, and now I have a
flower bloom. Apparently this particular
hardy water lily doesn't require soil to
function.

=======================
I'm experimenting with one tied to a rock as Derek does. So far only a few
puny leaves. All the others are already blooming or have buds. I suppose
if I want flowers I'll have to pull it up and pot it with a chunk of
fertilizer.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

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Old 26-04-2007, 05:31 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default UPDATE How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Gail Futoran" wrote in message
...
Leaves kept growing, and now I have a
flower bloom. Apparently this particular
hardy water lily doesn't require soil to
function.

=======================
I'm experimenting with one tied to a rock as Derek does. So far
only a few puny leaves. All the others are already blooming or have
buds. I suppose if I want flowers I'll have to pull it up and pot
it with a chunk of fertilizer.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö


Mine's about 4 years old with very
large roots. Maybe younger plants
are better off potted in soil.

Gail

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