Reel McKoi wrote:

"Hal" wrote in message

It does sound suspiciously like it might contain the same stuff as a
numbered soluble fertilizer like 15-30-15, that I find at Walmart. I
don't know where these chemicals come from, or if they are in
combination with potassium but my understanding is they are simply
nitrates, phosphates and potassium.

Some come with trace elements. I'm experimenting with Miracle-Grow and
products like it right now. It's not toxic to fish that I can see. The
5-10-5 for gardens works well in the water I grow pond plants in. It
doesn't seem to bother the frogs but has no trace elements listed on the
bags. I think I'll add MG next time and see if there's a difference.

How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? Ack.
Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect
their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect.

--Altum

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Peter,

The lilies are on the bottom, on bare cement. They do catch fish
waste.

I am interested in how they will or won't bloom.,

Jim

Altum wrote:

How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish???

The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close, but
_much_ less toxic.

Ack.
Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect
their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect.

But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very
early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep. the lower they are the
more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid

drsolo wrote:

how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.

How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
non-dwarf hardy lilies.

the lower they are the
more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid

Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the
leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they
don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able
to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
ones.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 15:17:54 CST, Altum
wrote:

The stuff at Walmart generally contains ammonium nitrate. The first
number in the N-P-K fertilizer ratio isn't nitrate, but nitrogen.
Ammonium nitrate is the most common source of it for fertilizer. You
can get away with burying a fertilizer spike with some ammonium nitrate
deep in a pot, but of course you wouldn't want to add ammonium to a pond
with fish. If you find a brand without any ammonium, I'm all ears!

I can't, but didn't know there was such a thing either.

I must say (Because I feel pretty stupid right now.) that I've never
found an ammonia reading in my pond except once some years ago when
the pond crashed (Because I was busy with other things, not due to
fertilizer.) and I started over again. I've used fertilizers that I
didn't think of as containing ammonia, but in small amounts, and in
ignorance. Thanks for pointing that out.

What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?

I use the bulk chemicals because 1) they're wonderfully cheap and 2) I
can tailor the mix to my individual tanks and pond depending on my water
change schedule and fish load.

The nitrate and phosphate have the potassium counterion (K, potash)
because aquatic and pond plants need a lot of it. Potassium is the K in
the N-P-K number. The chemicals are set up avoid adding undesirable
sodium and chloride to the water. Some people don't even need potassium
sulfate when they use potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate. I find
my plants do better with some extra potash so I add the potassium sulfate.

.................................................. .............Cut to
Soft water and Calcium
BTW, people in sof****er areas also add calcium and magnesium to the
fertilizer. My water is hard so I don't worry about it. I doubt it's
too much of a problem in most ponds since everyone tends to add coral
and/or oyster shells to harden the water a little for koi and goldies
anyway.
........................End Cut

I saw mention of algae blooms with water column fertilizers. My 3
half-barrel pond has a LOT of plants and very few fish compared to a
typical formal koi pond - it's practically a veggie filter. LOL! If I
don't fertilize the water, the WH goes reddish, chlorotic, and straggly
and the algae grows like crazy. When I fertilize well, the WH gets lush
and green, the cannas bloom, and algae is much less troublesome.

I would expect a lot more algae bloom problems in systems with more fish
and fewer plants, since there are often traces of ammonia in the water
until it passes through the filter. Ammonia + iron + sunlight = instant
algae.

You have pointed out something I've missed and must be ignored in many
gardening circles, since breaking down ammonia has long been a source
of fertilizer, but it begs the question where do you obtain these bulk
chemicals. I've never looked for them and doubt my gardening center
carries them, but would appreciate your help as to where to look.

Your help is greatly appreciated,

Hal

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

brevity snip

But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very
early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.
===============================
This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are
feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond? I mean pump it out
and refill it so heavy mulm doesn't collect on the bottom. Is it just fish
waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn? Are there other
plants in your pond or just the lilies? The "fertilizer" fueling them has
to be coming from somewhere.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Apr 5, 10:36 am, Derek Broughton wrote:
drsolo wrote:
how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.

How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
non-dwarf hardy lilies.

the lower they are the
more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid

Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the
leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they
don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able
to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
ones.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

Our top lillies are 2" under the surface. The deep ones are 2' down.
We have betweens at about a foot. All have done well, but I see the
deeper ones (on cement) as doing better. The potted ones are in stone
or dirt. Overall, however, I don't think they are flowering as much
as they might. That is why I asked about fertilizing the on-cement
ones.

Jim

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:

drsolo wrote:

how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.

How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
non-dwarf hardy lilies.

the lower they are the
more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid

Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as the
leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface, they
don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they are able
to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
ones.

How deep is deep?

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

Hal wrote:
What is the difference in using a mix of bulk potassium nitrate,
potassium phosphate, potassium sulfate? Sounds like potassium comes
with everything and I wonder why, and if it works better?

Stephen Henning wrote:
Also consider:
ammonium nitrate
ammonium phosphate
ammonium sulfate

Altum wrote:
Umm... I was talking about fertilizing water in a pond where there are
live fish. You don't add ammonium to the water.
How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish??? Ack.
Even tiny amounts of ammonia in the water can stress fish and affect
their health and growth, whether or not you see an immediate toxic effect.

Ammonium compounds and Ammonia are two different things just as Salt
(sodium chloride), Sodium and Chlorine are very different things.
Ammonia is NH3 a very caustic gas that produces NH4OH a caustic alkali.
Ammonium compounds are salts frequently used as fertilzers.

Looking at water lily fertilizers we find that many contain ammonium
compounds. For example:

CrystalClear Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: 5.5% nitrogen from Ammonium
Phosphate.

Tetra FloraPride Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: Ammonium Heptamolybdate.

Most water lily fertilizers are designed to not contaminate the pond
with nitrates and phosphates. And the bacterial breakdown of urea
creates ammonia, so most fertilizers do actually use ammonium compounds.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than
18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it
is. Ingrid

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:58:25 CST, "drsolo" wrote:

in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more than
18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as it
is. Ingrid

I wonder though, if lily type has a lot to do with production? When I moved
my lilies from 6-8" from the surface down to 20" some (most) have performed
better, and others have not. Flowers seemed bigger.

I put in the lily pond because the koi pond was so shady, but now my
neighbor's trees (evergreen) have grown to the point of also causing a lot
shade there. Only way I can win is to move. :-( ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

drsolo wrote:

in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more
than
18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as
it is. Ingrid

I disagree, and my Ontario pond proves it. It's a little warmer than
Wisconsin, but not much.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

Reel McKoi wrote:


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

brevity snip

But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my very
early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.
===============================
This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are
feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond?
I mean pump it out and refill it

Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom that
pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance
is in the veggie filter.

Is it just fish
waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn?

The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the
dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and
I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of a
farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few
trees, so no leaf debris.

Are there other plants in your pond or just the lilies?

Not many. Anacharis, parrot feather and irises. A number of bog plants in
the bog.

The "fertilizer" fueling them has to be coming from somewhere.

Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients
from the water.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

Kurt wrote:

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:

drsolo wrote:

how deep are the lilies? they dont like it deep.

How deep would you consider deep? Five feet is not too deep for most
non-dwarf hardy lilies.

the lower they are the
more energy to get leaves and flowers to surface. also, blooms at the
warmer surface water, earlier and more. Ingrid

Not in my experience. I start all my lilies shallow, and sink them as
the leaves reach the surface. Once they have a few pads on the surface,
they don't have a problem getting enough energy to push more, and they
are able
to spread out. My deep lilies always produce more blooms than my shallow
ones.

How deep is deep?

LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's
where the best lilies are.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.