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Old 05-04-2007, 09:49 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote:

How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish???


The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close, but
_much_ less toxic.


Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.

NH4+ -- NH3 + H+

Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.

--
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http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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Old 05-04-2007, 11:01 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Hal wrote:

You have pointed out something I've missed and must be ignored in many
gardening circles, since breaking down ammonia has long been a source
of fertilizer, but it begs the question where do you obtain these bulk
chemicals. I've never looked for them and doubt my gardening center
carries them, but would appreciate your help as to where to look.


Ammonium nitrate is an awesome fertilizer for anything but a body of
water containing fish - that's why most gardeners don't look any
further. Even with fish, your biofilter SHOULD convert trace amounts of
ammonium you add. It's just so darned toxic until it's converted that I
prefer to avoid it entirely.

I buy pound quantities of bulk fertilizers from
http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/. My pond is 3 half-barrels (only
about 90 gallons), so a pound of each chemical has lasted me for two
years and I've still got some left. The salts are so cheap that
shipping them often costs more than the chemicals.

For potassium nitrate (KNO3) locally, look for stump remover at the
hardware store. If you've got a local chemical supplier, you can get
all the salts there. You may get an interesting expression if you ask
for bulk potassium nitrate - it's common name is saltpetre and it makes
nice explosives and fireworks. ;-) Check hydroponic suppliers for good
iron/trace element fertilizers. Some also have the bulk salts.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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Old 05-04-2007, 11:31 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Reel McKoi wrote:


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

brevity snip

But I tend to agree with you, anyway. I haven't fertilized since my
very
early water-gardening days, and I get more blooms than ever.

===============================
This fascinates me and has since you first mentioned it. Your lilies are
feeding on something. How often do you clean your pond?
I mean pump it out and refill it


Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom
that
pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance
is in the veggie filter.


The bottom of my rubber lined ponds have a very gradual slope where I was
told mulm, if any, would collect. But that's not the case. In the
troublesome pond (which is actually 880g) the mulm collects all over the
bottom and shelves. The pump, at the lowest point and in a prefilter of 2
black plant baskets clam-shelled together, only sucks in what's real close
and pumps it to the filter. The mulm around it is left undisturbed. We
have to drain them down every year to remove the fry. Since we have only a
few inches of water left, we hose down the sides and use a shop vac to get
the last of the dark green odorless "glop" mulm from the bottom. This glop
makes excellent fertalizer for the flowers around the pond.

Is it just fish
waste feeding the lilies or is there runoff from the lawn?


The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the
dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and
I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of
a
farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few
trees, so no leaf debris.

Are there other plants in your pond or just the lilies?


Not many. Anacharis, parrot feather and irises. A number of bog plants
in
the bog.

The "fertilizer" fueling them has to be coming from somewhere.


Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients
from the water.


How do you remove the unwanted fry? Sorry but I don't remember why kind of
fish you're keeping.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

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Old 05-04-2007, 11:31 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Stephen Henning wrote:

Ammonium compounds and Ammonia are two different things just as Salt
(sodium chloride), Sodium and Chlorine are very different things.
Ammonia is NH3 a very caustic gas that produces NH4OH a caustic alkali.
Ammonium compounds are salts frequently used as fertilzers.


They're only different until you dissolve them in water. Then there is
a pH dependent chemical equilibrium between ammonia and ammonium.

NH4+ (ammonium) -- NH3 (ammonia) + H+ (protons)

At the 7.5-8.0 pH ranges typical of koi ponds, the ammonia, ammonium, or
whatever you want to call it is partly in the toxic NH3 form.

Looking at water lily fertilizers we find that many contain ammonium
compounds. For example:

CrystalClear Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: 5.5% nitrogen from Ammonium
Phosphate.

Tetra FloraPride Aquatic Plant Fertilizer: Ammonium Heptamolybdate.

Most water lily fertilizers are designed to not contaminate the pond
with nitrates and phosphates. And the bacterial breakdown of urea
creates ammonia, so most fertilizers do actually use ammonium compounds.


Just because you can buy something at a pet or garden store doesn't mean
it's good for fish. Most fishkeepers underestimate the extraordinary
toxicity of ammonia to aquatic life. Pure nitrate, on the other hand,
is easily tolerated by fish in the ranges appreciated by plants.

Also, this thread started with bare-root lilies. If the pond isn't
"contaminated" with nitrates and phosphates, the lilies will starve.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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Old 05-04-2007, 11:32 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?


"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's
where the best lilies are.

=========================
Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to
water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold
winters.

What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they
native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places
like Wally World?
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö



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Old 05-04-2007, 11:32 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Altum wrote:

Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.

NH4+ -- NH3 + H+

Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.


Actually it becomes ammonium hydroxide. It may never become ammonia.
Ammonium hydroxide is alkaline by definition. The fact that the
ammonium is in salt form keeps the ammonium hydroxide from becoming very
strong. That is what chemists call buffering. If what you said was
true, all bottles of household ammonium hydroxide would explode since
ammonium hydroxide is alkaline water and ammonia is a gas.

Successful water lily food manufacturers use ammonium compounds:

The Once-A-Year Aquatic-Spikes from AgSafe (a div. of AgriTab Corp.,
Clearfield UT) contain:

Ureaform, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate,
Calcium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Sucrate, Magnesium Sucrate,
Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sucrate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sucrate,
and Zinc Sulfate in a time release format. The are safe for fish and
other aquatic life. The nitrogen in their formulation is 70% ammonium
based and 30% nitrate based.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

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Old 06-04-2007, 01:13 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Stephen Henning wrote:
Altum wrote:

Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.

NH4+ -- NH3 + H+

Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.


Actually it becomes ammonium hydroxide. It may never become ammonia.
Ammonium hydroxide is alkaline by definition. The fact that the
ammonium is in salt form keeps the ammonium hydroxide from becoming very
strong. That is what chemists call buffering. If what you said was
true, all bottles of household ammonium hydroxide would explode since
ammonium hydroxide is alkaline water and ammonia is a gas.


ROFLMAO! Last time I checked, plenty of gasses (like say...oxygen?) were
soluble in water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_hydroxide

Note that only 0.42% of a 1M solution of household aqueous ammonia is in
the NH4+ form as ammonium hydroxide. The rest is dissolved,
fish-killing NH3.

Now, if you want to talk buffering, ammonium ion (NH4+) is the conjugate
acid of the Lewis Base, ammonia. That's what you're adding as
fertilizer, not ammonium hydroxide. The pKa of ammonium ion is 9.24.
Ponds should be buffered with over 100 ppm of carbonates holding the pH
steady so the ammonium salt has a minimal effect. Instead, it's
protonation state is set by the pond pH. That means at a typical pond
pH of 8, close to 10% of any form of NH3 or NH4+ that you add to the
water as fertilizer, fish waste, or urea breakdown goes to the horribly
toxic NH3 form. Then your biofilter has to handle it before it poisons
the fish.

Successful water lily food manufacturers use ammonium compounds:

The Once-A-Year Aquatic-Spikes from AgSafe (a div. of AgriTab Corp.,
Clearfield UT) contain:

Ureaform, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate,
Calcium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Sucrate, Magnesium Sucrate,
Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sucrate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sucrate,
and Zinc Sulfate in a time release format. The are safe for fish and
other aquatic life. The nitrogen in their formulation is 70% ammonium
based and 30% nitrate based.


Yeah, and you put them IN A POT, buried deep, and hope the plant uses
all the ammonium before it makes it out into the water column. If it
doesn't, you hope the large water volume in your pond dilutes the
ammonia/ammonium enough so it doesn't cause an algae bloom and hurt your
fish before it gets changed into nice, safe nitrate by the biofilter.

Again, we were talking about unpotted lilies growing on concrete. You
can add ammonium to your pond and see what happens. I'm sticking to
nitrate.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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Old 06-04-2007, 05:17 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
LOL. I thought I'd said :-) That pond is 5' at the deep end, and that's
where the best lilies are.

=========================
Maybe it's the summer heat here but my lilies do best at 18" (pot top to
water surface). I'm in zone 6. Long hot summers and short but often cold
winters.

What kind of water lilies are they to thrive in such deep water? Are they
native to where you live or the ones you can pick up at Lowe's and places
like Wally World?
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
ISP: Hughes.net
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö


  #39   Report Post  
Old 06-04-2007, 06:45 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default How do I fertilize lilies growing on cement?

Altum wrote:

Again, we were talking about unpotted lilies growing on concrete. You
can add ammonium to your pond and see what happens. I'm sticking to
nitrate.


Wait a minute. I just pointed out that ammonium compounds are used in
plant spikes which is a product that is used in potted plants. I never
advocated adding any nitrogen to the water. In fact I make a great
effort to put in enough plants to remove most nitrogen from the water.
As you mention, in plant spikes, ammonium, urea, and nitrate fertilizers
are all used, but not in the water.

The only major nutrient that should be added to the water is potash, not
phosphates or nitrates or ammonium compounds. That is why it is not
practical to expect to have a nice pond and also have unpotted lilies to
bloom prolifically. As I mentioned, my unfertilized, unpotted lilies
bloomed, but not as much as a few potted lilies.

With unpotted lilies healthy water lilies probably is a sign that the
water not ideal for fish. What make the lilies look good would not be
good for the fish. That is a good reason to pot the lilies which is
what I did in my pond.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

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Old 06-04-2007, 05:01 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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~ jan wrote:

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 11:58:25 CST, "drsolo" wrote:

in the frozen tundra of zone 5 (going on 6 due to global warming) more
than
18" -24" is too deep. it takes too much energy and too long to bloom as
it
is. Ingrid


I wonder though, if lily type has a lot to do with production? When I
moved my lilies from 6-8" from the surface down to 20" some (most) have
performed better, and others have not. Flowers seemed bigger.


I'm sure you're right.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.



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On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 13:22:42 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

The pond was built by digging a hole, and building up the sides with the
dirt from the hole, so there's no possibility of runoff from the lawn (and
I don't fertilize, anyway). There's some blown dirt - its on the edge of a
farm, and come spring the ice is usually pretty dirty. However, very few
trees, so no leaf debris.


You do have a liner?

I've tried bare root lilies before, and I haven't given up completely,
just keep changing plans, because the last one didn't work. This year
I have a converted hot tub with three lilies, two bare root.

I had shubunkin in the tub, but couldn't keep the water quality up,
so I removed the fish and began adding fertilizer to feed the bare
root lilies. Ingrid is right, enough fertilizer turns the water
green.

Regards,

Hal

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On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:45:30 CST, Stephen Henning
wrote:

With unpotted lilies healthy water lilies probably is a sign that the
water not ideal for fish. What make the lilies look good would not be
good for the fish. That is a good reason to pot the lilies which is
what I did in my pond.


Good! That makes me feel like I got one thing right this year.

Regards,

Hal

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Old 06-04-2007, 07:12 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Reel McKoi wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

Ye gods! I wouldn't dream of doing that. There's a pump on the bottom
that
pumps the mulm up into the veggie filter. Pretty well all the maintenance
is in the veggie filter.


The bottom of my rubber lined ponds have a very gradual slope where I was
told mulm, if any, would collect. But that's not the case. In the
troublesome pond (which is actually 880g) the mulm collects all over the
bottom and shelves. The pump, at the lowest point and in a prefilter of 2
black plant baskets clam-shelled together, only sucks in what's real close
and pumps it to the filter. The mulm around it is left undisturbed.


I use a large bore pump, capable of moving 7/8" solids (obviously, fish fry
too), and don't bother with a prefilter. Sure, mulm collects in folds and
flat spot in the rest of the pond. I don't worry about it. It all flows
downhill eventually.

Fish, and bare-root lilies to maximize their ability to extract nutrients
from the water.


How do you remove the unwanted fry? Sorry but I don't remember why kind
of fish you're keeping.


I've never seen evidence of koi fry, and the goldfish don't get too
prolific. I very rarely feed them - I'm sure there's a lot of
cannibalization, and a few going through the pump. That said, at any given
time it's home to a at least a few hundred goldfish and a half-dozen koi.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

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Old 06-04-2007, 07:12 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Altum wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote:

How can something that contains ammonia not be toxic to fish???


The fertilizers mentioned contain ammonium, not ammonia. Really close,
but _much_ less toxic.


Ammonium is just the protonated salt form of ammonia.


Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.

Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.


"most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not convinced
your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but it doesn't
seem valid to me.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

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Derek Broughton wrote:
Altum wrote:


Yes, but it's _still_ much less toxic than ammonia.
Put it in alkaline water (as in most ponds) and it promptly loses a
proton and becomes ammonia.


"most ponds"? I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it. I'm not convinced
your chemistry is right, either - mine's way in the past, but it doesn't
seem valid to me.


What part of "pKa of ammonium = 9.2" is unclear? You can verify that
number anywhere. If you have forgotten what a pKa is, you may want to
go back to a chemistry text and review the Henderson-Hasselbach
equations and buffering chemistry. Knowing about the pH-dependent
equilibrium between less NH4+ and NH3 is fairly fundamental to aquarium
and pond chemistry.

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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