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Old 05-04-2007, 06:15 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

Altum, I hope you don't mind that I cut a paragraph from your post in
another thread to start this one. I'm sorry if this is bad manners,
but the thread had already wandered and I didn't want to stray more.

BTW, people in sof****er areas also add calcium and magnesium to the
fertilizer. My water is hard so I don't worry about it. I doubt it's
too much of a problem in most ponds since everyone tends to add coral
and/or oyster shells to harden the water a little for koi and goldies
anyway.


Well, I have a soft water problem and use ground limestone to
replenish the calcium carbonate in the water to keep the KH up high
enough to keep the pH from crashing. Problem is the calcium won't
dissolve to raise the KH when the pH is higher than 7.8 and mine stays
about 7.8 or up to 8.2 most of the time. The same with shells, coral
and most other forms of calcium carbonate. Consequently I have a KH
of 1 degree, (Converts to 17.8 ppm.) a good bit of the time after a
rain. Most of the calcium that I have tried seems to raise the GH and
the KH remains low, seldom going over 2 or maybe 3 degrees. I have
reached 50 ppm, but seldom see 100 ppm in my pond. Years ago I read
about a pH pill made from plaster of paris on Doc Johnson's site and I
had some success with plaster of paris containing calcium sulfate, but
now most brands of plaster contain silica and I know nothing about
that, but fear it would be harmful since breathing silica isn't good
for people. I found one brand of plaster for hobbyist that states it
is non toxic on the label and I assume if it contained silica would be
required to carry the breathing warning. I've mixed a few cupcake
sized pills, but haven't used them yet.

What form of calcium would you recommend, and where can I get it?
My GH usually reads acceptable, so I am not as concerned about
magnesium, although I don't know how much is in the water or what
gives me the GH, but I have some Epsom Salts and I suppose that will
suffice if I need to add it.

Regards,

Hal

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Old 05-04-2007, 08:15 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

with limestone there is no need to add much of anything else. your water is
hard enough altho never use copper in there.

those pH pills can kill the fish when dropped into very soft, very acidic
water. for some reason the pH swings up and down and doest stabilize.
stability is what you are after. Jo Ann has big honker koi in acidic water
treated only with organic dolomitic limestone. Ingrid


I have
reached 50 ppm, but seldom see 100 ppm in my pond


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Old 05-04-2007, 11:53 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

Hal wrote:
Altum, I hope you don't mind that I cut a paragraph from your post in
another thread to start this one. I'm sorry if this is bad manners,
but the thread had already wandered and I didn't want to stray more.

BTW, people in sof****er areas also add calcium and magnesium to the
fertilizer. My water is hard so I don't worry about it. I doubt it's
too much of a problem in most ponds since everyone tends to add coral
and/or oyster shells to harden the water a little for koi and goldies
anyway.


Well, I have a soft water problem and use ground limestone to
replenish the calcium carbonate in the water to keep the KH up high
enough to keep the pH from crashing. Problem is the calcium won't
dissolve to raise the KH when the pH is higher than 7.8 and mine stays
about 7.8 or up to 8.2 most of the time. The same with shells, coral
and most other forms of calcium carbonate. Consequently I have a KH
of 1 degree, (Converts to 17.8 ppm.) a good bit of the time after a
rain. Most of the calcium that I have tried seems to raise the GH and
the KH remains low, seldom going over 2 or maybe 3 degrees. I have
reached 50 ppm, but seldom see 100 ppm in my pond. Years ago I read
about a pH pill made from plaster of paris on Doc Johnson's site and I
had some success with plaster of paris containing calcium sulfate, but
now most brands of plaster contain silica and I know nothing about
that, but fear it would be harmful since breathing silica isn't good
for people. I found one brand of plaster for hobbyist that states it
is non toxic on the label and I assume if it contained silica would be
required to carry the breathing warning. I've mixed a few cupcake
sized pills, but haven't used them yet.

What form of calcium would you recommend, and where can I get it?
My GH usually reads acceptable, so I am not as concerned about
magnesium, although I don't know how much is in the water or what
gives me the GH, but I have some Epsom Salts and I suppose that will
suffice if I need to add it.


GH = the total amount of both calcium and magnesium, so if your GH is
acceptable and you're using natural limestone or oyster shells you have
enough of both. You can increase only the KH very easily by adding some
baking soda. Use 1 tbsp per 100 gallons to raise KH by about 2 degrees.

Your low KH reading is a little unusual. If you raise the pH of typical
tap water to 7.8-8.2 with calcium carbonate, it goes well above KH 2-3.
Do you have cement, cement blocks or any form of lime in the pond
that's pulling the pH up?

--
My other fish and pond forum is:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

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Old 06-04-2007, 05:00 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 15:53:55 CST, Altum
wrote:

GH = the total amount of both calcium and magnesium, so if your GH is
acceptable and you're using natural limestone or oyster shells you have
enough of both. You can increase only the KH very easily by adding some
baking soda. Use 1 tbsp per 100 gallons to raise KH by about 2 degrees.

I seem to recall reading that calcium in the water was measured as GH
and the calcium carbonate was what raised the KH. Led me to believe
the calcium carbonate and bicarbonate worked, but calcium was
different for some reason???

I've used baking soda, but it is so temporary and that is risky for
me. It interferes with the dissolving of the calcium carbonate by
raising the pH with bicarbonates and becomes an endless cycle of
adding baking soda weekly.

Your low KH reading is a little unusual. If you raise the pH of typical
tap water to 7.8-8.2 with calcium carbonate, it goes well above KH 2-3.
Do you have cement, cement blocks or any form of lime in the pond
that's pulling the pH up?


No cement, or anything with lime, except a sock of ground limestone in
the water flow. I use garden soil for lilies and plastic pots, with
plastic half barrels for the fish to hide under and filter materials
(mostly plastic, some wood frames) and a pump. Three different liner
types, molded plastic, rubber and Permalon. PVC pipes and one acrylic
tube that runs above the waterline from the molded pond to the
Permalon lined pond.

I've read fish farmers (Catfish, bass and bream) in this area are
advised to lime the bottom of ponds if their KH is not up to 20 ppm,
but for koi, the AKCA, article by Norm Meck, recommends a minimum of
50 ppm on KH.
I don't usually meet that recommendation, but would like to.

Cut follows:
In an established pond, the ideal
Alkalinity measurement should be around 100 ppm. Readings from 50 to
200 are acceptable.
Cut from:
http://www.akca.org/kht/H2oQual.pdf

Someone at a Koi Society meeting advised adding the calcium used in
swimming pools, but I couldn't find out which lime they were using in
the calcium preparations for pool maintenance, so I haven't tried
that. Soda ash was used to bring up the pH in pools where I worked
some years ago, but I seem to recall there was a reason not to use
that in koi ponds.

Regards,

Hal

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Old 06-04-2007, 05:00 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

A fish farmer in Ft Valley (Within a 20mi radius) raises his fish in
clay ponds with a pH of 6, now that is acid. I tried to explain that
my pH is always at 7.8 or slightly higher with a KH of one degree or
close to 20 ppm. The pH being higher than neutral and the KH being so
close to 0 where a pH crash is most probable, is the reason I use the
pill. It seems a reasonable risk. What I would like is to raise the
KH a bit so I don't have to sweat a heavy rainstorm that might deplete
the small amount of carbonates that keeps the pH stable. We have
heavy rainstorms almost every time Florida, and many times the gulf
has a hurricane. (Location: Middle Georgia.)

I tried baking soda and it is so temporary that it is a real pain to
keep it up. There is also the probability that I will get distracted
and miss a week.

Regards,

Hal

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 12:15:31 CST, "drsolo" wrote:

with limestone there is no need to add much of anything else. your water is
hard enough altho never use copper in there.

those pH pills can kill the fish when dropped into very soft, very acidic
water. for some reason the pH swings up and down and doest stabilize.
stability is what you are after. Jo Ann has big honker koi in acidic water
treated only with organic dolomitic limestone. Ingrid


I have
reached 50 ppm, but seldom see 100 ppm in my pond




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Old 06-04-2007, 07:45 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 09:00:56 CST, Hal wrote:

A fish farmer in Ft Valley (Within a 20mi radius) raises his fish in
clay ponds with a pH of 6, now that is acid. I tried to explain that
my pH is always at 7.8 or slightly higher with a KH of one degree or
close to 20 ppm. The pH being higher than neutral and the KH being so
close to 0 where a pH crash is most probable, is the reason I use the
pill. It seems a reasonable risk. What I would like is to raise the
KH a bit so I don't have to sweat a heavy rainstorm that might deplete
the small amount of carbonates that keeps the pH stable. We have
heavy rainstorms almost every time Florida, and many times the gulf
has a hurricane. (Location: Middle Georgia.)

I tried baking soda and it is so temporary that it is a real pain to
keep it up. There is also the probability that I will get distracted
and miss a week.
Hal


Hal, what is your pH, KH out of the tap? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 07-04-2007, 01:38 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

get some limestone pavers and put them in your pond. they will dissolve
slowly and add calcium to the pond. Ingrid

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Old 07-04-2007, 05:52 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

"drsolo" wrote:

get some limestone pavers and put them in your pond. they will dissolve
slowly and add calcium to the pond. Ingrid


If you have a liner, you need to be careful with the pavers since they
are heavy and have sharp edges. The most gentler way is with limestone
river rock. They are rounded but more difficult to clean around.
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Old 07-04-2007, 06:41 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium

On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 17:38:27 CST, "drsolo" wrote:

get some limestone pavers and put them in your pond. they will dissolve
slowly and add calcium to the pond. Ingrid


Thanks,

Hal

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Old 07-04-2007, 06:42 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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On Fri, 6 Apr 2007 11:45:56 CST, ~ jan wrote:

Hal, what is your pH, KH out of the tap? ~ jan


This morning about 10 AM.
pH 7.4, KH Pale 2 degrees, GH 4 degrees
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Test Kit

The water comes out of the ground close to pure here, but lime/calcium
of some sort is added to keep from eating up all the metal pipes.

Regards,

Hal



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On Sat, 7 Apr 2007 10:42:06 CST, Hal wrote:

This morning (out of the tap) about 10 AM.
pH 7.4, KH Pale 2 degrees, GH 4 degrees
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Test Kit
Hal


I don't know if this will work for you, or if you'd even want to do it....
The leading KHA in our club is recommending people set up a continuous drip
& over flow system. He had been giving talks (and classes) on how to use a
whole house carbon based dechlor. system for this. How to keep an eye on it
for when the carbon is used up, etc. It is really interesting for the pond
person who really likes to tinker with their pond. In his case he was
always adding BS and various other stuff. Supposedly doing a flow thru
system ends the need for a lot of chemical and med treatments. It
definitely has helped him and has added about $15/month to his water usage.
Pond size, of course is going to determine where one fall$, his is about
4,000 gallons.

I'm keeping with my once/week changes, which seem to have worked for
me water chemistry-wise. But if your tap water is good and the chemistry is
always wonky, perhaps a flow thru would work? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 08-04-2007, 11:21 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Soft water and calcium - Water Changes

On Sat, 7 Apr 2007 14:25:32 CST, ~ jan wrote:

I'm keeping with my once/week changes, which seem to have worked for
me water chemistry-wise. But if your tap water is good and the chemistry is
always wonky, perhaps a flow thru would work? ~ jan


Thanks, I found an article on that:
http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/..._term=overflow

I dismissed it as too much work, but I'll take another look.

Regards,

Hal

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