Since pulling out two large iris plants the pond has taken on a very
cloudy consistency. They must have been planted in soil, which is very
rich in clay in our part of the UK.
I was advised in here to use Alum as a flocculant/coagulant, so I've
bought a tub of what I imagine contains Alum form the pond shop. I'll
see whether it works this weekend.

As an alternative, I was thinking about precipitating the positive clay
particles using an electrical charge. In theory they should lose
solubility once the charge has been removed, but applying that charge is
the tricky bit. Has any one seen a filtration system that charges the
water in a controlled and fish safe manner. I'm picturing a large tank
with slow moving water and a couple of electrodes at 12volts potential
difference. Nothing dangerous, and well away from the fish.


--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

"DavidM" wrote in message
...
Since pulling out two large iris plants the pond has taken on a very
cloudy consistency. They must have been planted in soil, which is very
rich in clay in our part of the UK.
I was advised in here to use Alum as a flocculant/coagulant, so I've
bought a tub of what I imagine contains Alum form the pond shop. I'll see
whether it works this weekend.

As an alternative, I was thinking about precipitating the positive clay
particles using an electrical charge. In theory they should lose
solubility once the charge has been removed, but applying that charge is
the tricky bit. Has any one seen a filtration system that charges the
water in a controlled and fish safe manner. I'm picturing a large tank
with slow moving water and a couple of electrodes at 12volts potential
difference. Nothing dangerous, and well away from the fish.


--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

Or if you wait long enough, they will settle you out on their own, costing
you a whopping sum of zero.

George

* George wrote, On 12/04/2007 04:57:

Since pulling out two large iris plants the pond has taken on a very
cloudy consistency. They must have been planted in soil, which is very
rich in clay in our part of the UK.
I was advised in here to use Alum as a flocculant/coagulant, so I've
bought a tub of what I imagine contains Alum form the pond shop. I'll see
whether it works this weekend.

Or if you wait long enough, they will settle you out on their own, costing
you a whopping sum of zero.

No they wont. The clay particles are positively charged making them
hydrophilic, they are carried in suspension so wont settle out. Larger
particles caught up in the flow will fall out of solution in a vortex,
but these wont.
My pond was nice and crystal clear for years, this cloudiness appeared
14 months ago. It would have settled out by now had it been just small
particles.


--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

DavidM wrote:
No they wont. The clay particles are positively charged making them
hydrophilic, they are carried in suspension so wont settle out. Larger
particles caught up in the flow will fall out of solution in a vortex,
but these wont.
My pond was nice and crystal clear for years, this cloudiness appeared
14 months ago. It would have settled out by now had it been just small
particles.


Hmmm.
I wonder if this is why every pond in my area (east Texas) is dark and
cloudy, instead of the clear water we see to the west of us (in the hill
country of Texas). Here we have LOTS of clay in our soil; there the soil
is very rocky.


Please let me know how this works for you - it might be the solution I have
been seeking for a way to clear up the water in ponds here.


--

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
(also MSN IM) Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes

"DavidM" wrote in message
...
* George wrote, On 12/04/2007 04:57:

Since pulling out two large iris plants the pond has taken on a very
cloudy consistency. They must have been planted in soil, which is very
rich in clay in our part of the UK.
I was advised in here to use Alum as a flocculant/coagulant, so I've
bought a tub of what I imagine contains Alum form the pond shop. I'll
see whether it works this weekend.

Or if you wait long enough, they will settle you out on their own,
costing you a whopping sum of zero.

No they wont. The clay particles are positively charged making them
hydrophilic, they are carried in suspension so wont settle out. Larger
particles caught up in the flow will fall out of solution in a vortex,
but these wont.
My pond was nice and crystal clear for years, this cloudiness appeared 14
months ago. It would have settled out by now had it been just small
particles.


--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

I thought it had just happened, and you were trying to get advice on what
to do. Do partial water changes until it is flushed out. Unless, of
course, your pond is super-sized. And in that case, you could use the
flocculant you were advised to use (alum will work - ammonium alum is used
to purify water). Just remember that alum is acidic, so you need to
monitor your pH carefully.

George

when clay is allowed to sit without disturbance it will come out of
solution. As long as it is agitated it wont. hydrophilic doesnt mean
positively charged in the sense of NaCl which has an ionic bond which is +
charged. Calcium (Ca++) added to water will help precipitate the clay as
will Alum or aluminum sulfate. This helps the clay clump together. Then a
good polyester batting is needed to filter it all out. Ingrid

Or if you wait long enough, they will settle you out on their own,
costing
you a whopping sum of zero.

No they wont. The clay particles are positively charged making them
hydrophilic

* drsolo wrote, On 12/04/2007 19:16:
when clay is allowed to sit without disturbance it will come out of
solution. As long as it is agitated it wont. hydrophilic doesnt mean
positively charged in the sense of NaCl which has an ionic bond which is +
charged.

The clay forms an electrostatic interaction with water molecules, so in
that sense it's the same as NaCl. Luckily it's not as strong as an ionic
bond, or else our ponds would need to be very hot in order to be liquid

Calcium (Ca++) added to water will help precipitate the clay as
will Alum or aluminum sulfate. This helps the clay clump together. Then a
good polyester batting is needed to filter it all out. Ingrid

BTW, did you read my first post in this thread? Do you know if any pond
water clearing techniques that use electrical potentials to remove
dissolved solids. My electrochemistry is a bit rusty and it's not a
particularly well planned experiment. I might just put 12 volts across a
bucket of dirty pond water to see what happens. If clay precipitates and
rises to the surface/sinks to the bottom it should be obvious.

--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

DavidM wrote:

* drsolo wrote, On 12/04/2007 19:16:
when clay is allowed to sit without disturbance it will come out of
solution. As long as it is agitated it wont. hydrophilic doesnt mean
positively charged in the sense of NaCl which has an ionic bond which is
+ charged.

Na is positively charged. Cl is negative. Which is exactly why salt
_isn't_ hydrophilic.

The clay forms an electrostatic interaction with water molecules, so in
that sense it's the same as NaCl. Luckily it's not as strong as an ionic
bond, or else our ponds would need to be very hot in order to be liquid

Ionic bonds _aren't_ strong - that's why they fall apart in solution.
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

"DavidM" wrote in message
...
Since pulling out two large iris plants the pond has taken on a very
cloudy consistency. They must have been planted in soil, which is very
rich in clay in our part of the UK.
I was advised in here to use Alum as a flocculant/coagulant, so I've
bought a tub of what I imagine contains Alum form the pond shop. I'll see
whether it works this weekend.

As an alternative, I was thinking about precipitating the positive clay
particles using an electrical charge. In theory they should lose
solubility once the charge has been removed, but applying that charge is
the tricky bit. Has any one seen a filtration system that charges the
water in a controlled and fish safe manner. I'm picturing a large tank
with slow moving water and a couple of electrodes at 12volts potential
difference. Nothing dangerous, and well away from the fish.


--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

David

I've never seen electrical filtration of the form you are proposing - some
form of electrostatic would seem to be apossible way forward. Magnets
(electro or permanent) could also possibly work. There used to be some units
available fitted with magnetic cleaning which might do what you need. Can't
find any specific pond equipment ATM, but you should be able to find magnets
which are supposed to act as water softeners when attached to your mains
water supply - these may be capable of modification to do the job.

I once had a couple of commercial units which were filled with Siporax
sintered glass media and had magnets in the outlet from the filter - these
worked beautifully until they clogged up (they were designed to fit on the
input of a smallish pump) which seemed to be about every hour IIRC!

UV is supposed to flocculate algae - I don't have any information on clay
particles. Some combination of systems may be the answer!

Peter
--
Peter & Elizabeth Corser
Leighton Buzzard, UK

ionic bonds are considered "strong" bonds in that they hold molecules like
NaCl together out of water. Hydrogen and vanderWaals are considered weak.
Water is very odd stuff with the oxygen holding onto the electrons most of
the time ... oxygen doesnt like to share. The hydrogens then become
positively charged. Water actually causes the dissociation of NaCl, altho
the amount of ionically bound compounds differ in how much will dissociate
and how well, or some not at all. It is only by association of the negative
with Hydrogen and the positive ion with oxygen does the stuff dissociate at
all. drop NaCl into oil and it goes to the bottom.

nothing is as strong as covalent bonds, which are, after all the glue that
holds us together and the storage batteries for energy. Ingrid

all I have been seeing in the junk science is magnets to precip calcium out
of well water. try the experiment. experiments are very good, especially
on a bucket of the dirty water. Ingrid


"DavidM" wrote in message
...
BTW, did you read my first post in this thread? Do you know if any pond
water clearing techniques that use electrical potentials to remove
dissolved solids. My electrochemistry is a bit rusty and it's not a
particularly well planned experiment. I might just put 12 volts across a
bucket of dirty pond water to see what happens. If clay precipitates and
rises to the surface/sinks to the bottom it should be obvious

Chris Barnes wrote, On 12/04/2007 16:04:
Hmmm.
I wonder if this is why every pond in my area (east Texas) is dark and
cloudy, instead of the clear water we see to the west of us (in the hill
country of Texas). Here we have LOTS of clay in our soil; there the
soil is very rocky.
Please let me know how this works for you - it might be the solution I
have been seeking for a way to clear up the water in ponds here.

I tried the water treatment over the weekend. Before treatment the
visibility was about 4", you could see fish at the surface, but not
swimming around. 24 hours after treatment the visibility had improved a
lot. I can see fish clearly at a depth of 6", and swimming 12" under
water. There is still some way to go yet, so I'll redose after 5 days.
Before contaminating the water with clay I could see all 5' to the
bottom.

The poduct I used was Interpet Clear Pond, they keep the ingredients
secret. I expect it uses a polymer coagulant (rather than Alum) because
there is no mention of pH change in the instructions
http://www.bradshawsdirect.co.uk/Bra...ecode=bphrooks

Interesting PDF on "Control of Clay Turbidity in Ponds" if interested is
available here; http://govdocs.aquake.org/cgi/reprin...25/7250060.pdf

--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

they just add a buffer to the alum. and the pH wont change. Ingrid

"DavidM" wrote in message
...
The poduct I used was Interpet Clear Pond, they keep the ingredients
secret. I expect it uses a polymer coagulant (rather than Alum) because
there is no mention of pH change in the