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Brown water!
Hi, fellow ponders, and thanks for being there.
I did something dumb. I was trying to build a nice buffer in my pond and added a bunch of landscaping lime in pellet form. Immediately, the pond turned a cloudy brown, and it has remained cloudy and brown now for weeks. I checked the manufacturer of the lime to see if it had any tannins or iron, but there was none mentioned in their literature, so I am thinking it must be just plain old mud. Is this going to hurt the fish? Recommendations for how to clean this mess up without changing water? My water is *finally* starting to mature and I hate to rock the boat. Thanks. Joan in Oregon P.S. Great idea about setting up a moderated group. Thanks to whomever went to the trouble to get this going! |
Brown water!
Hi Joan,
Welcome to rpm. I hope you will get some good advice from the group here. Jim |
Brown water!
did you get a pH on the water? landscape lime could be quicklime and
drive the pH up over 8. you need dolomitic limestone, it is almost like sand, off white with dark gray flecks, a little course. Ingrid On Tue, 8 May 2007 05:49:53 CST, Joan wrote: Hi, fellow ponders, and thanks for being there. I did something dumb. I was trying to build a nice buffer in my pond and added a bunch of landscaping lime in pellet form. Immediately, the pond turned a cloudy brown, and it has remained cloudy and brown now for weeks. I checked the manufacturer of the lime to see if it had any tannins or iron, but there was none mentioned in their literature, so I am thinking it must be just plain old mud. Is this going to hurt the fish? Recommendations for how to clean this mess up without changing water? My water is *finally* starting to mature and I hate to rock the boat. Thanks. Joan in Oregon P.S. Great idea about setting up a moderated group. Thanks to whomever went to the trouble to get this going! |
Brown water!
"Joan" wrote in message
... Hi, fellow ponders, and thanks for being there. I did something dumb. I was trying to build a nice buffer in my pond and added a bunch of landscaping lime in pellet form. Immediately, the pond turned a cloudy brown, and it has remained cloudy and brown now for weeks. I checked the manufacturer of the lime to see if it had any tannins or iron, but there was none mentioned in their literature, so I am thinking it must be just plain old mud. Is this going to hurt the fish? Recommendations for how to clean this mess up without changing water? My water is *finally* starting to mature and I hate to rock the boat. Thanks. Joan in Oregon P.S. Great idea about setting up a moderated group. Thanks to whomever went to the trouble to get this going! We used the garden lime in one of our ponds when we first started it up about 10 years ago. My filter (upflow gravel) was able to trap the lime onto the surface of the gravel. Water cleared within a few days. To remove the lime, you might try the quilt batting that some use for removal of some of the green water algae. If there is very much of the lime in the pond, it will clog the quilt batting quickly, so it may need to be cleaned several times. |
Brown water!
The stuff I used is called dolomite lime. It contains mostly calcium
carbonate and magnesium carbonate. The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5 in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day. I am also having a big algae bloom, and I have some elodea, so I think that is partly responsible for the swings. I also have barley bales in there and I'm netting out what algae I can. My buffering capacity is still on the low side, so I got some oyster shells for koi ponds and have them in a bag. So far, so dramatic change. I am trying to do whatever I do *carefully* and *slowly* and only after a great deal of thought of the pro's and cons. Oy. Joan did you get a pH on the water? landscape lime could be quicklime and drive the pH up over 8. you need dolomitic limestone, it is almost like sand, off white with dark gray flecks, a little course. Ingrid |
Brown water!
Oh okay, thanks. My only filter is a big bag of lava rock at the top of my waterfall (in the plastic box where the water comes back in) with plants growing on top of it. I have a skimmer at the other end, where the pump is. Do you mean I should just get some quilt batting and put it in the skimmer? I can do that, and I'd gladly clean it every day if it will help. Do you think that will get that muddy stuff suspended in the water out too? I tried running some of the muddy water through a cotton bag (single thickness) and it didn't do anything at all, but maybe it wasn't thick enough? Thanks. Joan We used the garden lime in one of our ponds when we first started it up about 10 years ago. My filter (upflow gravel) was able to trap the lime onto the surface of the gravel. Water cleared within a few days. To remove the lime, you might try the quilt batting that some use for removal of some of the green water algae. If there is very much of the lime in the pond, it will clog the quilt batting quickly, so it may need to be cleaned several times. |
Brown water!
On Tue, 8 May 2007 13:00:33 CST, Joan wrote:
The stuff I used is called dolomite lime. It contains mostly calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5 in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day. Unfortunately that isn't stable. Your change should only be about 7.5 in the AM to a max of 7.9 in the PM. The problem is your low KH/buffering, as you mentioned, not the plants. This is also why the algae is blooming and why the mud is not settling. Get the KH/buffering up and things will settle down/out. What is the KH of your tap water? If that is good, do a slow flow thru if you can, otherwise 10% water change every other day will not hurt the balance. A flow thru system, with carbon filters on the new water, is being highly recommended in the koi community right now. Where about 10% exchanges over a 24 hour period. This isn't for everyone, especially if your tap water isn't great, or water prices are high. It's more a high-end koi keeper's ideal. I personally have an accidental flow thru, some small leak that drops the level about an inch/day, so I add water when I get home.... I'm still doing a 20% on the weekends. IMO, I'd be using baking soda to get my KH up. About 1 cup/1000 gallons and retest. That pH swing is harder on your fish and filter than adding baking soda. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Brown water!
it isnt the same stuff, most likely. I will say tho, that when we
fill our big ponds out of the well at the dacha the water has a definite whitish cast. it may be possible to remove a lot of that "stuff" with aluminum sulfate aka alum. if your pond is very warm, that algae can suck the CO2 out of the water at night right along with the oxygen. the HARDNESS (forget carbonate for now) is due to calcium and magnesium. oysters only have calcium. but they both do the same thing. they are the main buffering ions, but you can try putting some baking soda, sodium bicarbonate in to increase the carbonate buffer. I think it would be good to start with what is your water like out of the tap??? can anybody remember the url for the florida state article on this topic? Ingrid On Tue, 8 May 2007 13:00:33 CST, Joan wrote: The stuff I used is called dolomite lime. It contains mostly calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5 in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day. I am also having a big algae bloom, and I have some elodea, so I think that is partly responsible for the swings. I also have barley bales in there and I'm netting out what algae I can. My buffering capacity is still on the low side, so I got some oyster shells for koi ponds and have them in a bag. So far, so dramatic change. I am trying to do whatever I do *carefully* and *slowly* and only after a great deal of thought of the pro's and cons. Oy. Joan did you get a pH on the water? landscape lime could be quicklime and drive the pH up over 8. you need dolomitic limestone, it is almost like sand, off white with dark gray flecks, a little course. Ingrid |
Brown water!
The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5 in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day. Unfortunately that isn't stable. Your change should only be about 7.5 in the AM to a max of 7.9 in the PM. The problem is your low KH/buffering, as you mentioned, not the plants. The KH has been ranging from 89.5 to 107.4. What I mean by stable is that is always about the same when I measure it at the same time each day. Our water is completely soft, so I have been trying for a long time to get both the GH and the KH up and have been using sodium bicarbonate as a temporary booster till I can get enough GH in there to hold the buffering capacity up long-term. I've been seeing the wide diurnal pH swings even when my KH was 100, so I am thinking that the effect of photosynthesis (CO2 consumption) during the day accounts for the high pH at the end of the day. The whole dolomite/mud thing happened because I was trying to get the KH up. :-( I figured I can't keep dumping NaHCO3 in there indefinitely, because eventually the HC03 will get consumed and I'll end up with too much Na in there. I've been adding an awful lot of baking soda in there since the pond was built 2 years ago. Joan This is also why the algae is blooming and why the mud is not settling. Get the KH/buffering up and things will settle down/out. What is the KH of your tap water? If that is good, do a slow flow thru if you can, otherwise 10% water change every other day will not hurt the balance. A flow thru system, with carbon filters on the new water, is being highly recommended in the koi community right now. Where about 10% exchanges over a 24 hour period. This isn't for everyone, especially if your tap water isn't great, or water prices are high. It's more a high-end koi keeper's ideal. I personally have an accidental flow thru, some small leak that drops the level about an inch/day, so I add water when I get home.... I'm still doing a 20% on the weekends. IMO, I'd be using baking soda to get my KH up. About 1 cup/1000 gallons and retest. That pH swing is harder on your fish and filter than adding baking soda. ~ jan ------------ 2Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Brown water!
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Brown water!
yes, a flocculent. alum is aluminum sulfate. cheaper to get it but
dont use it in acid ponds or ponds with low hardness. I guess I would start with some water changes to physically get rid of stuff. once you have some liquid calcium or something. call Jo Ann and ask her where she gets hers. She has that acid soft water down in Alabama and they change 3000 gallons per day on their pond for their monster koi. 251-649-4790 Ingrid On Wed, 9 May 2007 12:51:11 CST, Joan wrote: Is that a flocculent? I did add a flocculent once (Pond Care brand); used the recommended dose; no great change. |
Brown water!
ahh.. at night the plants use up the CO2 to make glucose, dark cycle
of photosynthesis. you ARE on the right track tho, adding calcium/magnesium to the pond. with soft water (water softener or soft acid out of the ground/city?) resist any temptation to use the "pH pill" or plaster of paris, this makes the pH swing wildly for some reason. I think the problem is you added the wrong stuff. Ingrid On Wed, 9 May 2007 12:51:01 CST, Joan wrote: that the effect of photosynthesis (CO2 consumption) during the day accounts for the high pH at the end of the day. The whole dolomite/mud thing happened because I was trying to get the KH up. :-( I figured I can't keep dumping NaHCO3 in there indefinitely, because eventually the HC03 will get consumed and I'll end up with too much Na in there. I've been adding an awful lot of baking soda in there since the pond was built 2 years ago. |
Brown water!
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Brown water!
dont know, but when those "pills" are tossed into soft acid ponds the
pH swings are enough to start killing the fish. It sounds good in theory, just doesnt work. Another Koivorkian moment. Ingrid On Sat, 12 May 2007 09:10:26 CST, Hal wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007 08:57:34 CST, wrote: resist any temptation to use the "pH pill" or plaster of paris, this makes the pH swing wildly for some reason. I never heard that before and don't understand it. Calcium carbonate is the calcium that buffers pH. Calcium carbonate stops dissolving into the water, when the water reaches a pH of 7.8, although calcium may continue to add to the general hardness of the water GH does little or nothing toward buffering pH. Calcium carbonate, in the form of calcium sulfate, increases the KH when introduced into the water at a pH of 7.8 . So how does increased levels of calcium carbonate cause wild pH swings? Regards, Hal |
Brown water!
The thing in calcium carbonate that does the buffering is the carbonate, not the calcium. Don't know anything about plaster of paris, but calcium sulfate is different from calcium carbonate. Carbonate exists in water as an equilibrium between carbonate ion (CO2, with a charge of -2) and bicarbonate ion (HCO2, with a charge of -1). It has the ability to pick up or drop a hydrogen ion (H+). It's the amount of free hydrogen ion that determines pH, I'm not a chemist, but maybe the sulfate doesn't have the same buffering capacity as carbonate. Joan ___________________ Calcium carbonate, in the form of calcium sulfate, increases the KH when introduced into the water at a pH of 7.8 . So how does increased levels of calcium carbonate cause wild pH swings? Regards, Hal |
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On Sat, 12 May 2007 17:19:26 CST, Joan wrote:
I'm not a chemist, but maybe the sulfate doesn't have the same buffering capacity as carbonate. Let me try again. The calcium sulfate (plaster of Paris.) when dissolving into the water carries calcium carbonate into solution. Calcium carbonate in limestone stops entering solution when the pH of the water reaches 7.8. Sorry if I mislead you, but I thought Ingrid knew that. You are correct in wanting calcium carbonate to buffer KH, so do I. However calcium can also enter the water and register on a tester as GH, but I want calcium carbonate in the water and to register as KH on my test kit. I'm not a chemist either, just a dummy with soft water and a few experiences, trying to learn something. :) Regards, Hal |
Brown water!
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Brown water!
It does in some water. I am not a chemist either, and I am simply too
old and busy with other stuff to dig out my chem books and start re-learning what I would need to know to work thru this. at least in soft acid water using calcium sulfate causes up and down PH swings. carbonate wont for the reasons you gave. perhaps sulfate has a much greater dissociation potential (I am grasping at parts of my memory have not been accessed for nearly 30 years!) It is like people used to recommend vinegar to acidify the water. Good idea, but it is organic and soon the water contains enough bacteria that uses acetic acid as a food. Ingrid On Sun, 13 May 2007 15:06:57 CST, Derek Broughton wrote: wrote: dont know, but when those "pills" are tossed into soft acid ponds the pH swings are enough to start killing the fish. It sounds good in theory, just doesnt work. Another Koivorkian moment. You're a scientist, Solo; you should know better. Plaster of Paris does not cause wild pH swings. It sounds good in theory, _and_ it works. It doesn't work in the _long_ term because the buffer gets used up, but it does work. |
Brown water!
The Goldfish Guru lives in Alabama. People started calling her after
their Koi started dying (she had training in fish diagnosis mostly for the catfish farms down in Ala). She was checking their pH and finding this wild swinging that isnt normal for Ala. That is when she found out they were dropping these plaster of paris "pills" into their ponds. when they removed them, the swinging stopped. this was a few years ago, dont know if people still do it. I live where they "mine" the limestone for export. So I have ponds out at the dacha that are filled with well water. At the same time, we have a water softener and filled my tanks with water with no buffer at all and had to add it back. Now I live in the city with water out of the lake, soft water and have to add hardness. WHAT to put into the tank and what NOT to put in the tank is of great concern. I used to use organic dolomitic limestone (walmart) and then the quit selling it. Now I use the liquid stuff I mentioned before. I just want people to be careful. Ingrid On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:19:51 CST, Hal wrote: I suspect this was something you heard about instead of personal experience and the pH pill you heard about was more than just Plaster of Paris, or one with additives to enhance molding qualities, like silica. I don't know what else might be used, possibly quick lime or one of those used in cement for quick setting? I've had more success at raising the KH along with the GH, instead of just raising the GH with limestone's by using calcium sulfate, in the pH pill than any other substance. I must admit it is difficult to find a plaster of Paris without additives. I haven't tried one with quick lime though .:) Regards, Hal |
Brown water!
calcium sulfate puts calcium and sulfate into water.
calcium carbonate puts calcium and carbonate into water. bicarbonate is the buffer system of living things. the dissociation constants are different, maybe one is affected by pH or by temp more than the other. Like I said, too old for this. Ingrid On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:20:16 CST, Hal wrote: On Sat, 12 May 2007 17:19:26 CST, Joan wrote: I'm not a chemist, but maybe the sulfate doesn't have the same buffering capacity as carbonate. Let me try again. The calcium sulfate (plaster of Paris.) when dissolving into the water carries calcium carbonate into solution. Calcium carbonate in limestone stops entering solution when the pH of the water reaches 7.8. Sorry if I mislead you, but I thought Ingrid knew that. You are correct in wanting calcium carbonate to buffer KH, so do I. However calcium can also enter the water and register on a tester as GH, but I want calcium carbonate in the water and to register as KH on my test kit. I'm not a chemist either, just a dummy with soft water and a few experiences, trying to learn something. :) Regards, Hal |
Brown water!
OK, I went back and did a search. This message was from Rod Farlee
who IS a chemist. this is what he said on 6/16/1999 Ingrid "But this "pH pill" is not the "one size fits all", "toss it in and forget it" remedy that the ******** suggests it is. It certainly works, but with some caveats. It raises GH (general hardness, calcium) more than calcium carbonate (limestone) alone does. That's because it contains calcium sulfate (gypsum), which is much more soluble than calcium carbonate, and which raises GH but not KH (alkalinity, bicarbonate). So unless one has very soft, slightly alkaline water to begin with, care should be taken. GH and KH should both be monitored. If GH is getting too high, take it out, and add baking soda if needed to raise KH. Or limit the amount to less than 1 lb/1000 gallons, to ensure GH does not continue to rise. If much larger amounts of plaster of Paris are added, it just won't work. Gypsum is 170 times more soluble than calcite. Gypsum will continue to dissolve, and push GH "off the scale". Through the common ion effect (calcium), this will suppress dissolution of the calcite (calcium carbonate), so KH will remain low. If a very large amount were used, GH and pH would go up, and KH would actually go down, and the pond might get cloudy with calcite precipitation. That would be a Bad Thing: it's the next step on the road to an alkali lake. Gotta watch for that. Happily, it takes some weeks for the "pH pill" to dissolve anyway, so these gradual changes can be monitored. And the effects of an "overdose" are ameliorated if one's water contains a substantial magnesium component in it's GH (the average eastern or midwestern river does, Ca/Mg ~ 4). (Reasons: MgCO3 is much more soluble than CaCO3, and it interferes with calcite cystallization so allows supersaturation to occur. This reduces high GH driving KH down.) Finally, if one receives regular rainfall, one might never see these overdose effects. But the potential is there, and I treaded close to it before I understood what was happening." |
Brown water!
I know nothing about calcium and ponds, however calcium carbonate rock
(and to a very much lesser extent, calcium sulfate) is something I have been involved with for many years. Calcium sulfate, or gypsum, forms some caves, but is most commonly encountered as speleothems (formations) in limestone, or calcium carbonate,, largely as gypsum "flowers" or needles. Early on in cave exploration, most cavers used lamps powered by calcium carbide and water. When calcium carbide reacts with water, it gives off acetylene, which is burnt, the "spent" carbide consisting mostly of calcium hydroxide. Caves are formed largely when carbon dioxide is dissolved in surface water which forms a weak acid solution which in turn dissolves the limestone, slowly resulting in a cave. To be sure, there are other contributors to speleogenesis, but this is a very common cause. I not a chemist, and not a limestone hydrologist either, but I can't help but feel that calcium hydroxide and dissolved carbon dioxide play a role in this also. -- Galen Hekhuis I may have mispoken |
Brown water!
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Brown water!
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