Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

As a new comer to ponding, a couple of weeks ago I asked on this group if I
really needed to buy oxygenating plants for my new 6m x 5m fish-less
wildlife pond. Unfortunately no one with a similar pond replied and most
responders were ambiguous on the matter. So I have decided to leave well
alone and not get the oxygenators.

The pond is very health with clear water. But after recent heavy rain the
blanket weed has increased massively. It occurred to me that maybe the real
answer to my question may have been that every pond needs something
burgeoning to absorb nutrients. That something may be vigorous
oxygenators, large numbers of marginals, algae, blanket weed, duck weed,
etc.

So although the oxygenators may not be needed to provide oxygen; they would
be beneficial in absorbing nutrients and preventing the growth of things
that are generally not appreciated.

Does this make any sense?

cheers, Davy

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

"Davy" wrote in message
om...
As a new comer to ponding, a couple of weeks ago I asked on this group if
I
really needed to buy oxygenating plants for my new 6m x 5m fish-less
wildlife pond. Unfortunately no one with a similar pond replied and most
responders were ambiguous on the matter. So I have decided to leave well
alone and not get the oxygenators.

The pond is very health with clear water. But after recent heavy rain the
blanket weed has increased massively. It occurred to me that maybe the
real
answer to my question may have been that every pond needs something
burgeoning to absorb nutrients. That something may be vigorous
oxygenators, large numbers of marginals, algae, blanket weed, duck weed,
etc.

So although the oxygenators may not be needed to provide oxygen; they
would
be beneficial in absorbing nutrients and preventing the growth of things
that are generally not appreciated.

Does this make any sense?

cheers, Davy

Makes sense to me.

That's planted tank thinking. Fill up the tank with "weeds" (really fast
growing stem plants like Cabomba etc) until the tank cycles, algae has been
and gone etc.
Then, put in the plants you really want to (the weeds starving the algae of
nutrients)

I can see it working with a pond the size of my two (puddles really 800L,
and 1800L), but I don't know about bigger ponds.

I'm using a disolving sachet type thing at the moment, and it seems to help
(though I have quite a few marginals), but as it was a close out line, I'll
need to go with another brand soon.

FWIW my slower lily is covered in BW and has to be cleaned weekly.

Peter

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

Davy,
I thought you got a lot of good answers.
Ponding is part science, part art.
You are putting perimeters on a pond that don't
work in nature so you aren't always going to get
the results you want.

Your rain shower probably allowed a lot of nutients
from your yard (dirt, fertilizer?) to run into the pond.
A pond now out of balance.
ANY kind of plant will use up excess nutrients. But
it will take time.

k :-)

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

On Sat, 19 May 2007 03:59:57 CST, "Davy"
wrote:

As a new comer to ponding, a couple of weeks ago I asked on this group if I
really needed to buy oxygenating plants for my new 6m x 5m fish-less
wildlife pond. Unfortunately no one with a similar pond replied and most
responders were ambiguous on the matter. So I have decided to leave well
alone and not get the oxygenators.

The pond is very health with clear water. But after recent heavy rain the
blanket weed has increased massively. It occurred to me that maybe the real
answer to my question may have been that every pond needs something
burgeoning to absorb nutrients. That something may be vigorous
oxygenators, large numbers of marginals, algae, blanket weed, duck weed,
etc.

So although the oxygenators may not be needed to provide oxygen; they would
be beneficial in absorbing nutrients and preventing the growth of things
that are generally not appreciated.

Does this make any sense?

cheers, Davy

Absolutely. I came to the conclusion that others were trying to say you
don't have to buy enough to fill the pond.... but get perhaps a quarter of
what you were thinking and they'll fill in?

We use to be able to get elodea easily here at our pet shops, I really miss
it. I can get a bit of it to winter over inside and outside, but every year
it doesn't seem to come back as strong as the last.

I currently have a 1,000 gallon (3790 liters?) fishless pond filled with
tad poles, lilies and a half dozen marginals. It is 6 years old and I see
that I'm getting SA a little less each spring. It tends to love where the
water comes in. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

We have never tried a totally fishless pond. I suspect it would have
fewer nutrients than our koi/goldie pond as it would have less
fishwaste.

You are surefly right that algae and especially blanketweed will grab
nutrients and thrive. It cannot compete with more complex plants, so
your plantings will get rid of it as they succeed. We get a good dose
of blanketweed each year, especially on the falls. Our koi view it as
a treat, so it is not in the main pond. We let it run where it does
not mess up the view. It hastens its own demise by grabbing
nutrients.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Jim

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

Davy wrote:

So although the oxygenators may not be needed to provide oxygen; they
would be beneficial in absorbing nutrients and preventing the growth of
things that are generally not appreciated.

Does this make any sense?

At the risk of repeating myself, yes :-)
--
derek
- Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself, not rec.ponds.moderated
moderators.

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

Phyllis and Jim wrote, On 19/05/2007 18:48:
We have never tried a totally fishless pond. I suspect it would have
fewer nutrients than our koi/goldie pond as it would have less
fishwaste.

The excess nutrients come from the fish food that we throw in, it is
packed full of calories that the fish turn in to urea.
Many people have low maintenance gardens ponds with a few fish that are
never fed. There is no pumped filtration or outside intervention. The
population of fish (and plants) is self regulating depending on the
available resources. Fish eat plant matter or invertebrates so if the
pond is in balance, the nutrient level will be just right. Probably wont
be a great pond though, and fish will die if the system is unbalanced.

--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

In article , DavidM
writes
Phyllis and Jim wrote, On 19/05/2007 18:48:
We have never tried a totally fishless pond. I suspect it would have
fewer nutrients than our koi/goldie pond as it would have less
fishwaste.

The excess nutrients come from the fish food that we throw in, it is
packed full of calories that the fish turn in to urea.
Many people have low maintenance gardens ponds with a few fish that are
never fed. There is no pumped filtration or outside intervention. The
population of fish (and plants) is self regulating depending on the
available resources. Fish eat plant matter or invertebrates so if the
pond is in balance, the nutrient level will be just right. Probably wont
be a great pond though, and fish will die if the system is unbalanced.

I have a pond like that and it is very healthy. There is one huge Golden
Orfe in it And I have never fed him once. He lives very well on a diet
of small beasties, tadpoles and plants, and grows each year just eating
what is naturally available to him in the pond. The frogs love it too.
The only maintenance I have to do is cut back the plants twice a year.

Angela.

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

Angela Lamb wrote, On 21/05/2007 18:35:
In article , DavidM
writes
Phyllis and Jim wrote, On 19/05/2007 18:48:
We have never tried a totally fishless pond. I suspect it would have
fewer nutrients than our koi/goldie pond as it would have less
fishwaste.
The excess nutrients come from the fish food that we throw in, it is
packed full of calories that the fish turn in to urea.
Many people have low maintenance gardens ponds with a few fish that are
never fed. There is no pumped filtration or outside intervention. The
population of fish (and plants) is self regulating depending on the
available resources. Fish eat plant matter or invertebrates so if the
pond is in balance, the nutrient level will be just right. Probably wont
be a great pond though, and fish will die if the system is unbalanced.

I have a pond like that and it is very healthy. There is one huge Golden
Orfe in it And I have never fed him once. He lives very well on a diet
of small beasties, tadpoles and plants, and grows each year just eating
what is naturally available to him in the pond. The frogs love it too.
The only maintenance I have to do is cut back the plants twice a year.

Not sure why I said it would not a great pond, my apologies. Small still
water ponds would probably have less tolerance to over stocking. But as
you say, one fish can thrive in a balanced pond.

I've always fancied keeping a single large fish in a pond or tank. A
local aquatic centre kept a Giant gourami in their shop. He was a
monster, even by Koi standards.

Have you lost fish in the past to infection? Not that it's any
reflection on the pond keeping, I just imagine the risk of anaerobic
bacteria is quite high in a still pond.

--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

In article , DavidM
writes
Not sure why I said it would not a great pond, my apologies. Small still
water ponds would probably have less tolerance to over stocking. But as
you say, one fish can thrive in a balanced pond.

I've always fancied keeping a single large fish in a pond or tank. A
local aquatic centre kept a Giant gourami in their shop. He was a
monster, even by Koi standards.

Have you lost fish in the past to infection? Not that it's any
reflection on the pond keeping, I just imagine the risk of anaerobic
bacteria is quite high in a still pond.

No need to apologise - each to their own :) I never lost any fish to
infection but to next door's cat! My son bought 6 little Orfes 7 years
ago and the cat fished five of them! I have to confess I was more
worried about the cat puncturing the pond liner than the poor fish at
the time! - which is why I never replaced them. The current one is 10"
long now. The water isn't always still though. I run a fountain
intermittently, but there is no filter system other than the little
filter on the fountain pump that I clean out if the fountain spray
depletes, - that seems to be around every three years. At the moment my
yellow irises in the pond are just about to burst into flower.

Angela.

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

DavidM wrote:
...
Many people have low maintenance gardens ponds with a few fish that are
never fed. There is no pumped filtration or outside intervention. The
population of fish (and plants) is self regulating depending on the
available resources. Fish eat plant matter or invertebrates so if the
pond is in balance, the nutrient level will be just right.

I was thinking about setting up a planted aquarium along those lines,
but the experts in the aquarium groups I went to for advice seemed
pretty adamant about it not being feasible in an aquarium of any
reasonable size. It occurred to me it might be more feasible to do
this as a pond, so I searched this newsgroup and found your message.
Can you point me to any information or advice about setting up such a
pond? The phrase "low maintenance" sounds trivial, but I'm sure it
requires careful design and an initial period of "high maintenance"
while working to reach the necessary state of balance.

Thanks!

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

I'm not sure it's all that hard, or at least I didn't
work all that hard at it...
I set up a shallow water pond. Filled it full of
plants and let it go. The only outside influence
it had was being hit by the sprinklers at night
and I added water from time to time when it
got really hot out. (Live in an arid area with hot
summers.) It was full of plants, snails,
aquatic insect larvae and frogs/tadpoles. It had
fish for a time, never fed, but I decided they
would eat too many frogs eggs and I really wanted
a lot of tadpoles/frogs so I took them out.
The only way it got out of balance was actually
Mother Nature's plan - the plants started filling it
in and I decided not to invest a lot of labor to weeding.

My other pond has fish and plants and the fish are not
fed. It does have a waterfall. The fish waste is taken
care of by the plants, including a heavy growth of
hornwort and the waterfall full of rock. Everyone
thrives and reproduces. I suspect there are insect
larvae in the hornwort. Snails get eaten and I haven't
seen any outside the waterfall container.

I like fishless ponds best of all as you get more
opportunities to see more critters. I have a deck
pond that has seed shrimp and tubiflex worms in
it, in addition to snails and tadpoles.

k :-)
http://tinyurl.com/6bguh ~ new pond keeper info
http://tinyurl.com/yp64db ~ slide show of pond

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

k wrote:


My other pond has fish and plants and the fish are not
fed. It does have a waterfall. The fish waste is taken
care of by the plants, including a heavy growth of
hornwort and the waterfall full of rock. Everyone
thrives and reproduces. I suspect there are insect
larvae in the hornwort. Snails get eaten and I haven't
seen any outside the waterfall container.

So are you saying that you use nothing other than natural systems to
filter the pond? Or do you have a filter in addition to the plants? Or
do you use the waterfall as a veggie filter?

Gill

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

kuyper wrote:



I was thinking about setting up a planted aquarium along those lines,
but the experts in the aquarium groups I went to for advice seemed
pretty adamant about it not being feasible in an aquarium of any
reasonable size. It occurred to me it might be more feasible to do
this as a pond, so I searched this newsgroup and found your message.

The problem with attempting a self-sustaining aquarium is that it is a
closed system whereas nature will take over with a pond. A pond will
attract wildlife that will become a source of food for the fish and
other creatures living there. An aquarium will generally only have what
you have introduced. Because the area is enclosed it becomes very
difficult, if not almost nigh on impossible, to sustain sufficient
foodstuff to maintain without supplemental feeding. In a pond, nature
will supply the foodstuff.

Can you point me to any information or advice about setting up such a
pond? The phrase "low maintenance" sounds trivial, but I'm sure it
requires careful design and an initial period of "high maintenance"
while working to reach the necessary state of balance.

Thanks!


I'm in the process of constructing a pond, and like yourself, want it as
low maintenance as possible. I'm taken with the idea of using a veggie
filter to keep it as natural as possible but will probably chicken out
and use conventional filtration as well. I will be very interested in
the replies that you get.

Gill

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

Gill wrote
So are you saying that you use nothing other than natural systems to
filter the pond? Or do you have a filter in addition to the plants? Or
do you use the waterfall as a veggie filter?

Usually the waterfall if full of watercress. But if you look at the
slideshow you'll see it is clear this year as DH wanted to see if it
could do the job alone and he likes to see the
waterfall. The hornwort took off and the pond is full of it and I'm
wondering if it is a direct result and is taking over the job as
veggie filter?
The pond is 3,000+ gallons and is lightly stocked.The hornwort is
hiding the fish much of the day and that's probably a good thing as a
heron was stopping by once in a while.

k :-)
http://tinyurl.com/6bguh ~ new pond keeper info
http://tinyurl.com/yp64db ~ slide show of pond

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

TPhyllis and Jim wrote, On 19/05/2007 18:48:
... The population of fish (and plants) is self regulating depending on the
available resources.


Gill Passman wrote:
...
The problem with attempting a self-sustaining aquarium is that it is a
closed system whereas nature will take over with a pond. A pond will
attract wildlife that will become a source of food for the fish and
other creatures living there. An aquarium will generally only have what
you have introduced. Because the area is enclosed it becomes very
difficult, if not almost nigh on impossible, to sustain sufficient
foodstuff to maintain without supplemental feeding. In a pond, nature
will supply the foodstuff.

When a breeding population outgrows it's food supply, in a small pond
I would expect it to exterminate it's food supply before suffering
significant losses due to starvation, so it would therefore end up
starving to death. For insectivores and algae eaters that's less of a
problem, because new sources come into the pond all the time. However,
it seems to me that anything which relies on aquatic plants for food
is not going to see its food supply quickly re-established. I had been
hoping to have the fish keep the plants in check, so I wouldn't have
to do any weeding; from what you've said, it sounds like this would be
feasible, and I'd like to understand how that works.

While nature is able keep a small population imbalance in check, I'm
sure it couldn't handle a large one. If I start out with too many fish
and not enough food sources, they will starve. Can you give me any
rules of thumb for how many fish and plants of a given size and type
can be supported naturally by a pond of a given size, and in what
ratios? The rules of thumb I could find for aquaria were based upon
plants artificially supported by pumped CO2, and fish that were being
artificially fed. They assumed that the fish weren't eating the
plants, and that the plants were being trimmed by the aquarium keeper.
As a result, those densities are way too high for the approximately
balanced ecosystem I'd like to set up.

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

We once got the pond down to one goldfish.
(We've had two fish adoptions where we gave
away fish.) From that one goldfish and four
introduced koi (to take care of runaway snails)
we have had many generations and I see baby
fish all the time. The other day I noticed a lot of
damselflies laying eggs in the hornwort. Whenever
the water level goes up the fish spend a lot of
time policing the edges hunting down insects.
We seem to have gnats hatching from time to
time. Snails reproduce in the waterfall pool and make their
way into the pond where they don't last very long.
In my fishless ponds I'm always amazed at what
shows up - rattail maggots (the larva of the dronefly)
is one of my favorite discoveries. I'm sure that those
wonderful critters get eaten in the fishpond.
The fish seem to spend a lot of time mowing substrate
algae and the critters that live therein.

k :-)

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

kuyper wrote:


When a breeding population outgrows it's food supply, in a small pond
I would expect it to exterminate it's food supply before suffering
significant losses due to starvation, so it would therefore end up
starving to death. For insectivores and algae eaters that's less of a
problem, because new sources come into the pond all the time. However,
it seems to me that anything which relies on aquatic plants for food
is not going to see its food supply quickly re-established. I had been
hoping to have the fish keep the plants in check, so I wouldn't have
to do any weeding; from what you've said, it sounds like this would be
feasible, and I'd like to understand how that works.

I, like you, only know the theory and suppostition......I want my new
pond to be as self sustaining, low maintenance as possible as I have 7
aquariums that need constant attention. My supposition is that you keep
omnivores in the pond that will eat both excess plant growth and any
insects or other creatures that wander in......so I'm looking at
goldfish right now....I have attempted it before but the main problem
was leaves from trees and not being able to keep up with the removal of
the dead plant matter to the point where the pond sustained frogs, newts
and other creatures but sadly not fish......so Kath's suggestion of a
"nature" pond might be what you are looking at....but then you have the
problem of pruning back plants.....



While nature is able keep a small population imbalance in check, I'm
sure it couldn't handle a large one. If I start out with too many fish
and not enough food sources, they will starve. Can you give me any
rules of thumb for how many fish and plants of a given size and type
can be supported naturally by a pond of a given size, and in what
ratios?

In my experiment I would be inclined to go for a high density of plants
and a low density of fish.....but then I am going to factor in the
possible need for more conventional filtration as and when I need
to.....My ideal plan is to have a veggie filter and heavily plant the
pond....stocking will be light and I'm not looking at keeping Koi
(although this might change).....of course the size of your pond would
be another great factor.....my step-brother has a 5 acre pond where he
raises trout (in Scotland) and the feeding and maintenance is minimal
because it truly mimics nature - so I guess in this case it is a matter
of scale again in the same way as it is with aquariums....


The rules of thumb I could find for aquaria were based upon
plants artificially supported by pumped CO2, and fish that were being
artificially fed. They assumed that the fish weren't eating the
plants, and that the plants were being trimmed by the aquarium keeper.
As a result, those densities are way too high for the approximately
balanced ecosystem I'd like to set up.


I would not like to not feed my adult fish in one of my aquariums but I
do not supply any special food for the fry and do have some survive and
some become additional feed for the adult fish. My Mbunas certainly eat
the plants but do also need additional food for their health......my
platy fry survive initially on the stuff living in the algae - but does
everyone want string algae in their display tanks? I would agree that to
sustain the level of plant growth that you would need to support a
colony of fish might need an extra boost such as CO2 or ferts.....I read
your thread on TFA with great interest (even though I didn't join
in)........but I do think that you might have more success with an
outdoor pond than you would with a closed system - it's the closed
system that is the key to the problem and unless that keyed system is
massive then you just will not pull it off.....and yes I know about
those silly eco-system ball things.....

Gill

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

"kuyper" wrote:

While nature is able keep a small population imbalance in check, I'm
sure it couldn't handle a large one. If I start out with too many fish
and not enough food sources, they will starve. Can you give me any
rules of thumb for how many fish and plants of a given size and type
can be supported naturally by a pond of a given size, and in what
ratios? The rules of thumb I could find for aquaria were based upon
plants artificially supported by pumped CO2, and fish that were being
artificially fed. They assumed that the fish weren't eating the
plants, and that the plants were being trimmed by the aquarium keeper.
As a result, those densities are way too high for the approximately
balanced ecosystem I'd like to set up.

The main problem I see with setting this up is that the fish will breed,
which will bring you to your scenario of too many fish and they will starve.
If you want something natural AND low maintenance, omit the fish altogether.
Then you don't even have to be concerned about your water parameters. Along
will come the dragonflies, frogs and birds. If you have mosquitoes, you
could introduce a few gambusia that will deal with them. Of course, they
breed like guppies. ;) Depending on where you live, the county vector
control will pick those up for you.

FWIW, I don't think there really is such a thing as low maintenance pond.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:52:41 CST, San Diego Joe
wrote:

The main problem I see with setting this up is that the fish will breed,
which will bring you to your scenario of too many fish and they will starve.
If you want something natural AND low maintenance, omit the fish altogether.
Then you don't even have to be concerned about your water parameters. Along
will come the dragonflies, frogs and birds. If you have mosquitoes, you
could introduce a few gambusia that will deal with them. Of course, they
breed like guppies. ;) Depending on where you live, the county vector
control will pick those up for you.

FWIW, I don't think there really is such a thing as low maintenance pond.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

There may indeed not be a true low maintenance pond, but there can be
a no maintenance pond, as in neglected pond. I know, because I have
one. Well, three, actually, but one close by the house that I really
neglect. The others are just victims of passing neglect. I have no
idea what the pond by the house started out as, but when I got
involved it was a garbage dump. I lived with it that way for a year,
then got some heavy equipment to haul out the junk. I was left with a
large mud puddle, which I guess is better than an overgrown junk heap.
By the end of the year it was a mud puddle with weeds. It isn't the
fastest way to go but it seems to work out in the end. I've seen a
bunch of critters, from egrets and ibises (ibi?) to a Florida
softshelled turtle to a water snake named Bob (though I haven't seen
it recently). As for the frogs and dragonflies and such, "if you
build it they will come." At least that has been my experience, and
they moved in long before I thought they would. As far as mosquitoes
go you can just get these "mosquito dunks" that contain a bacteria
that gets the mosquitoes if you don't want to fuss with fish. I don't
use either, though I've used both in the past with excellent results.
I don't have much of a problem with mosquitoes, I'm not sure, but I
think the dragonflies and frogs get 'em. I've got oodles of both.
--
Galen Hekhuis
Hell hath no fury like a bird in the hand

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

"San Diego Joe"

FWIW, I don't think there really is such a thing as low maintenance pond.

Sure there is... when the water level goes down,. you need to do maint.
work.. ;)


--
Gareee
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

Do Ponds Need SOMETHING that Burgeons?
 

Fast growing plants grab nutrients and eventually out-compete the
algae.

Jim