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Old 20-06-2007, 01:11 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises


"earhtmother" wrote in message
oups.com...
So how do I go about this efficiently
and with relative ease. Pond is 15' x 21', sloping sides to
3.5'approx, 8200 US gal / 31200 L - Dug with EPGM Liner - ZONE 3
so a shop vac seems out of the question. Is there a "good & easy "
way or am I screwed.

Elaine

I fully agree with Jan on the use of a bottom drain, but before I had bottom
drains I made my own vac for the pond that you can see at
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondpage4.html. It works well. Just go
slow and easy, since the debris can be stirred up fairly easily and then
suspends for some time before returning to the bottom. The discharge of the
pump can be routed to a secondary filter of quilt batting or the like to
remove even more of the fines.


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Old 20-06-2007, 08:44 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

From Carol

"Kurt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Reel McKoi" wrote:
I think you're "screwed." Our largest pond is 2000 and unless we drain
it
down and remove all grunge the filter misses it clouds the water and
filters
almost daily. What we do is remove the old bird-net, drain it down to
the
largest koi's dorsal fin, net them out and drain it to the bottom. We
hose
the grunge off the algae on the sides and the plant pots left in place,
leaving the algae untouched. The last little bit of dirty water and
gravel
is sucked out with a shop vac. The settling tank is drained and hosed.
The
pond is then re-netted, refilled and "aerated" for 24 hours, then the
regular pumps/filters turned on and the fish are returned to it. It's a
dirty all day job.


How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that
only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing
anything.

=============================
Since they started spawning, every spring. There were a few springs we
skipped when they were all young and small. We also remove all the unwanted
fry and any bullfrogs or turtles we find. Some predators get through the
nets as youngsters and then grow like mad. Sucking out the sediment alone
doesn't work for us. Too much goes into suspension and clouds the water.
That doesn't remove all the DTSs either. With a total water change
everything is removed; hormones, feces, urine, bits of this and that
including at least 20 to 30 gallons of black slop (mulm). The fish love it
and almost always spawn within a few days of these major water changes. :-)
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(

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Old 20-06-2007, 08:44 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises


"Kurt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Reel McKoi" wrote:
I think you're "screwed." Our largest pond is 2000 and unless we drain
it
down and remove all grunge the filter misses it clouds the water and
filters
almost daily. What we do is remove the old bird-net, drain it down to
the
largest koi's dorsal fin, net them out and drain it to the bottom. We
hose
the grunge off the algae on the sides and the plant pots left in place,
leaving the algae untouched. The last little bit of dirty water and
gravel
is sucked out with a shop vac. The settling tank is drained and hosed.
The
pond is then re-netted, refilled and "aerated" for 24 hours, then the
regular pumps/filters turned on and the fish are returned to it. It's a
dirty all day job.


How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that
only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing
anything.

=============================
Since they started spawning, every spring. There were a few springs we
skipped when they were all young and small. We also remove all the unwanted
fry and any bullfrogs or turtles we find. Some predators get through the
nets as youngsters and then grow like mad. Sucking out the sediment alone
doesn't work for us. Too much goes into suspension and clouds the water.
That doesn't remove all the DTSs either. With a total water change
everything is removed; hormones, feces, urine, bits of this and that
including at least 20 to 30 gallons of black slop (mulm). The fish love it
and almost always spawn within a few days of these major water changes. :-)
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(

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Old 20-06-2007, 08:45 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises


"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond
to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan

====================
This is true but it doesn't remove what a total water change will. Many
filters will clog quickly with the plant matter and other grunge that
settles to the bottom. Grunge also settles on the plants and their pots.
This is hosed off during the spring change. My filter intake is on the
bottom and catches much of the particles but not all land near the intake.
It lands on the shelves and all other serfaces. My pump has only one
intake.

My grow-out tanks get little of this mulm/grunge for some reason but I do a
complete chage on them yearly also. Again, to remove all the TDS as the
water slowly turns harder and loses it's buffering capacity.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(

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Old 20-06-2007, 10:16 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

In article ,
~ jan wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:45:55 CST, Kurt wrote:


How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that
only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing
anything.


Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond
to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us


Was hoping to avoid rebuilding the pond (major undertaking). Reel's tips
are probably what I need to do.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"



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Old 21-06-2007, 02:51 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:16:10 CST, Kurt wrote:

How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that
only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing
anything.


Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond
to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan


Was hoping to avoid rebuilding the pond (major undertaking). Reel's tips
are probably what I need to do.


I misunderstood, you said you were trying to have a pond that size, I
thought you were in the building stage. I have a retro-fit bottom drain
that doesn't go thru the liner (diagram on my filter page), perhaps that is
an option? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 21-06-2007, 02:52 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:45:09 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond
to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan

====================
This is true but it doesn't remove what a total water change will.


You're also removing the eco-balance. Not everyone has access to good water
and often a total water change will cause new-pond-syndrome (pea soup) for
some. I believe you have UV to combat this?

Many filters will clog quickly with the plant matter and other grunge that
settles to the bottom. Grunge also settles on the plants and their pots.
This is hosed off during the spring change. My filter intake is on the
bottom and catches much of the particles but not all land near the intake.
It lands on the shelves and all other serfaces. My pump has only one
intake.


Once one's koi are big enough, they continually move sediments towards the
bottom drain. Since this is continual the pond stays clean and the filter
doesn't need extra cleaning. Most people who have researched or discovered
the ease of using a bottom drain also have gotten the message regarding
proper filter size so they aren't cleaning them all that often. Once every
6 weeks, pre-filter only. That's why, IMHO, when someone who is just in the
thinking stage of building a pond should be steered towards bottom drains &
skimmers. And if they have the money, a vortex filter system. I'm all about
ease on the back, and time.

A 24/7 flow thru system takes care of a lot water chemistry problems (if
one has a good water source). ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 21-06-2007, 04:39 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

In article ,
~ jan wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:16:10 CST, Kurt wrote:

How often do you do this? I'm trying to have a pond about that size that
only requires a "sediment suck" on a minimal basis - without removing
anything.

Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the pond
to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan


Was hoping to avoid rebuilding the pond (major undertaking). Reel's tips
are probably what I need to do.


I misunderstood, you said you were trying to have a pond that size, I
thought you were in the building stage. I have a retro-fit bottom drain
that doesn't go thru the liner (diagram on my filter page), perhaps that is
an option? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us


Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance
between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

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Old 21-06-2007, 06:17 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:39:23 CST, Kurt wrote:

Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance
between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish.


Yes, it will suck up fish. In my case they just end up in the pre-filter no
worst for the ride. Eggs now.... I've had a lot of babies do quite well in
the filter, makes for longer clean out times catching them all. ;-) So far
only twice in the 11 years I've had it running. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 21-06-2007, 02:06 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance
between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish.


Our intake is at the deepest part of the pond (7') inside a 5 gal
bucket that has as many 1/2" holes in it as we could drill. The many
holes reduce the pull through any one of them and close out anything
over 1/2". Muck goes in, but nothing else. The pump is designed to
handle anything under 1/2". If the holes were 1/4" it would keep all
but the tiniest fish out. Once a year, we net out the larger-
than-1/2" muck that gathers by the filter intake. As Jan noted, an
intake at the lowest point makes the pond self-cleaning.

Jim



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Old 21-06-2007, 05:30 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

In article .com,
Phyllis and Jim wrote:

Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance
between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish.


Our intake is at the deepest part of the pond (7') inside a 5 gal
bucket that has as many 1/2" holes in it as we could drill. The many
holes reduce the pull through any one of them and close out anything
over 1/2". Muck goes in, but nothing else. The pump is designed to
handle anything under 1/2". If the holes were 1/4" it would keep all
but the tiniest fish out. Once a year, we net out the larger-
than-1/2" muck that gathers by the filter intake. As Jan noted, an
intake at the lowest point makes the pond self-cleaning.

Jim


I have netting over a prefilter in mine. My pond is tiered, and the
deepest point is about 3 ft. 5 gal is too big for me, but something
similar would work. I really need to revamp my system.
I will post pix and sizes to get input.
Appreciate the tips!

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

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Old 22-06-2007, 01:30 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 13:45:09 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Put in a bottom drain to filter and you won't ever have to drain the
pond
to clean, it will all get sucked out continuously to the filter. ~ jan

====================
This is true but it doesn't remove what a total water change will.


You're also removing the eco-balance. Not everyone has access to good
water
and often a total water change will cause new-pond-syndrome (pea soup) for
some. I believe you have UV to combat this?


Jan, I seldom get pea soup just because I did a total water change. I
sometimes get pea soup with no obvious cause. Yes I have UV lights but
seldom actually need them. I only use them when the water fails to clear
on it's own.

Many filters will clog quickly with the plant matter and other grunge that
settles to the bottom. Grunge also settles on the plants and their pots.
This is hosed off during the spring change. My filter intake is on the
bottom and catches much of the particles but not all land near the intake.
It lands on the shelves and all other serfaces. My pump has only one
intake.


Once one's koi are big enough, they continually move sediments towards the
bottom drain.


I would need bottom drains all over the bottom and on the shelves. The
bottom is not rounded like a bowl but flat. The shelves are level and not
tipped inward to dump the mulm to the bottom. My koi are all adults in the
front ponds and do stir the sediment which then lands everywhere on the
bottom and the shelves and plant pots. The darn stuff is everwhere.

Since this is continual the pond stays clean and the filter
doesn't need extra cleaning. Most people who have researched or discovered
the ease of using a bottom drain also have gotten the message regarding
proper filter size so they aren't cleaning them all that often.


I could probably use a larger filter. The ones we made ourselves are better
than the Tetra Filters we bought years ago. Now with only 10 koi in the
2000g pond and 5 in the 800g pond the filters don't need cleaning as often.

Once every
6 weeks, pre-filter only. That's why, IMHO, when someone who is just in
the
thinking stage of building a pond should be steered towards bottom drains
&
skimmers. And if they have the money, a vortex filter system. I'm all
about
ease on the back, and time.


I agree. Get the best system money can buy right at the start and don't
make the mistake of flat bottom ponds like we did.


A 24/7 flow thru system takes care of a lot water chemistry problems (if
one has a good water source). ~ jan


Or if one has their own well. :-)


--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(

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Old 22-06-2007, 02:09 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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"Kurt" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... checked it out - looks good. I just need a careful balance
between sucking up the muck and sucking up the tiny fish.

================
It's been my experience that the tiny fish hang our mainly in the shallow
end of ponds and in the planted areas. I don't see them on the bottom where
it's deep until they're 1 to 1 1/2" long. If a bottom drain has large
enough openings they can be sucked in. Newts and small frogs would most
likely get sucked into a bottom intake. My pumps are sealed in those stiff
black plastic mesh plant pots. That keeps out the tadpoles, fry, newts and
small frogs, twigs, leaves and larger plant debris.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(

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Old 22-06-2007, 04:04 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Question about irises

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:30:37 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

I agree. Get the best system money can buy right at the start and don't
make the mistake of flat bottom ponds like we did.


I dug my liner up after a year in the ground and installed a bottom
drain. In the process I put a taper to the bottom, giving the bottom
about a 1 in 4 feet of drop to the center. That may help a little,
but I can't tell that it helps to keep the bottom clean. Detritus
still settles on the surface, eventually leaves seem to find their way
to the drain, but it isn't like rain off a roof of the same pitch. It
does however make it very exciting to step into the pond and try to
walk around bare footed. The bottom is about 8x11 feet and I can
place one foot on the drain dome and do little things like retrieving
something off the bottom that a net or scoop won't pick up, but the
tapered bottom is just a pita.

IMHO A much better solution to a clean bottom is to use a sweeper.
I used a second pump to push water through ABS pipe on three sides of
the pond along the bottom corner, with holes spaced along the side of
the pipe to push water across the bottom and to the drain. I put it
on a timer and ran it for an hour daily. It was beneficial, but lily
pots kept it from being totally effective. Without junk like pots
bottom it should work well. I prefer the lilies to the questionable
benefit of the sweeper with the pots disturbing the sweeping flow.

Regards,

Hal

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Old 23-06-2007, 01:23 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:30:37 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

I agree. Get the best system money can buy right at the start and don't
make the mistake of flat bottom ponds like we did.


I dug my liner up after a year in the ground and installed a bottom
drain. In the process I put a taper to the bottom, giving the bottom
about a 1 in 4 feet of drop to the center. That may help a little,
but I can't tell that it helps to keep the bottom clean. Detritus
still settles on the surface, eventually leaves seem to find their way
to the drain, but it isn't like rain off a roof of the same pitch. It
does however make it very exciting to step into the pond and try to
walk around bare footed. The bottom is about 8x11 feet and I can
place one foot on the drain dome and do little things like retrieving
something off the bottom that a net or scoop won't pick up, but the
tapered bottom is just a pita.


The sloped bottom would certainly present a problem with balance. At our
age myself and my husband don't need a bad fall. I took a bad one from the
shelf a few years back and the bruises and pain lasted for weeks.


IMHO A much better solution to a clean bottom is to use a sweeper.
I used a second pump to push water through ABS pipe on three sides of
the pond along the bottom corner, with holes spaced along the side of
the pipe to push water across the bottom and to the drain. I put it
on a timer and ran it for an hour daily. It was beneficial, but lily
pots kept it from being totally effective. Without junk like pots
bottom it should work well. I prefer the lilies to the questionable
benefit of the sweeper with the pots disturbing the sweeping flow.


That sounds like a workable solution to removing your mulm. Since we have
to drain down the pond to remove all the unwanted fry every year we'll
probably continue to do so. Removing the mulm and leaving the fry would
never work.


--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(



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