I have addressed this august forum a few times over the past year, but
this time I'm getting serious, really!

I am converting my pool into a pond. I want to retain as much of the
pool and it's plumbing as possible, mainly because it is exactly where I
want the pond, I am cheap, and it seems a waste of time, effort and
money to tear up a fully functioning water-tight hole in the ground, to
dig and plumb another.

It is a large'ish hole- a kidney shaped, circa 1985 shotcrete/Marcite
w/3' of Kooldeck surround, 16'x35'x3'8.5' deep(~18,500 gal). For
several reasons I want to retain much of the shape and size of the
current pool.

I know that pool plumbing is not the same as pond plumbing, but here's
the situation. In addition, to the normal 2" bottom drain and 2"
skimmer, I have 14 (yes, fourteen) 2" cleaning outlets that sweep the
bottom of the pool with jets of water. These could be converted to flow
in the opposite direction in a snap, so I could have 15 2" bottom drains
or even a combination of drains and returns. I also have 2-1.5" returns
near the top on opposite sides of the pool.

However, I have major conflicting concerns.
1) I read one pond book and it says bottom drains are the greatest
things since sliced bread. I read the next pond book and it says that
one should NEVER have a bottom drain, they are useless. This also goes
for skimmers.

2) I read another book and it says NEVER use a submersible pump, I read
the next and it says that submersible pumps are the cat's meow. They
both claim their choice is the most energy and pond efficient.

3)I read another book that says NEVER put gravel on the bottom, then the
next one says use lots of gravel.

??????????

A leading pond contractor here made me a design that followed exactly
half of these books. He required filling in the pool, digging it back
out, lining it w/EDPM, putting a 4500GPH submersible pump to a 36sq ft
bog, then return over a 4' wide waterfall. He also wants to put 1-3"
gravel all over the bottom. That's it! This is just wrong by the other
1/2 books and BTW his bid is very expensive.

Here is my thinking at the moment- I will become the general contractor
and sub out the physical work and plumbing following my own best guesses
based on my reading and recommendations from groups like this.

If I raise the pool floor by re-pouring concrete, also raising all the
bottom plumbing connections to adjust, to about a 35' depth (with
ledges for plants), spray a fish safe liner or paint (or is the aged
plaster good as it is?), use the existing skimmer but make it fish
proof, make all the cleaning bottom connections drain to the existing
1HP external pump, then to a bog, then return down a waterfall. This,
in addition to the 2 existing returns SHOULD???? give me a low
maintenance pond w/great circulation.

Is this crazy? Am I missing something fundamentally? It scares me that
I could be making a huge mistake. BUT I do want a pond as the
centerpiece of my new backyard.

1st priority is making a pretty natural looking pond and waterfall that
has a few fish in it, NOT the fish themselves. 2nd Priority is
low-maintenance.

I also would like the grandkids to be able to swim with the fish like an
old-fashioned "swimmin' hole". Anybody have this or know about this
feature?

All suggestions, criticisms, and derisive chuckles welcome.

Chip

Hi Chip!
Sounds like a great project. It will be interesting
to follow your progress.

One way to look at a pond and a reduced load
of work is to know how a natural pond works over
time. It wants to fill in. It is its purpose in life :-))

So whatever you can do to keep *stuff* out of the
pond will help.

Putting plants in areas where you can easily reach
them to trim off dead flowers and dead foliage is
key.
If you have a lot of trees can you net it in the fall?
A skimmer also works to keep blown in stuff out.
A bottom drain makes it easier to get out all the
fish poo that collects.
If you are going to have swimmers you don't want
snails (swimmer's itch) and a couple of koi will
take care of that for you (they love a tasty snail).
Having gravel in the bottom makes it harder to clean
out the gunk (poo, etc.) that will settle down there.
You can easily sweep stuff on a smooth bottom to the
bottom drain but gravel.... ak!

The plumbing, etc. I will leave to others.

k :-)
http://tinyurl.com/6bguh ~ new pond keeper info
http://tinyurl.com/yp64db ~ slide show of pond

k wrote:
Hi Chip!
Sounds like a great project. It will be interesting
to follow your progress.

One way to look at a pond and a reduced load
of work is to know how a natural pond works over
time. It wants to fill in. It is its purpose in life :-))

So whatever you can do to keep *stuff* out of the
pond will help.
(snipped lots of good info)

Thanks for the info. Sounds very reasonable.

You mention a "veggie filter" in your pics. Is this the same as a
"Bog"? If you have a large and efficient enough veggie filter do you
need a mechanical filter? or a Pre-filter to catch the big stuff? If
all that gunk settles in the bottom of the veggie filter, won't IT fill
up fast? How often does it need cleaning and what do you do with the poo?

Chip

bogs have dirt. no dirt needed unless you want to grow lotus and even
then, lotus will take over any space where it has free run.
......... I started with a mechanical and pre filter and the plants
grew into them making it a pain to remove both at seasons end. I dont
use them anymore.

If you use species appropriate food for the fish, like freeze dried
krill AND your koi leave the mud in the pots alone, then it doesnt
fill up fast at all. I clean once a year in fall before buttoning up
my filter and pond. If winter didnt come it would be every 2-3 years.
Ingrid

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:19:49 CST, Chip wrote:
You mention a "veggie filter" in your pics. Is this the same as a
"Bog"? If you have a large and efficient enough veggie filter do you
need a mechanical filter? or a Pre-filter to catch the big stuff? If
all that gunk settles in the bottom of the veggie filter, won't IT fill
up fast? How often does it need cleaning and what do you do with the poo?

Chip

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:09:45 CST, Chip wrote:

I am converting my pool into a pond.

Go he
http://kilk.com/pond/ He used sandbags in the pond to form the design he
wanted and lined it.

You can definitely leave the pool as is, our club President uses her old
swimming pool as her koi pond. I've never asked if she uses the bottom
drain and existing piping. She does have a large out-of-the-pond
bio-filter. If you'd like I can contact her and ask.

Personally, I'd probably put my bio-chambers in the pool, and sand bag
around them, new plumbing would be along the existing bottom and sandbagged
over it so the liner was smooth. No tearing up of anything. All pumping put
in hole, and pond built around it.

1) I read one pond book and it says bottom drains are the greatest
things since sliced bread. I read the next pond book and it says that
one should NEVER have a bottom drain, they are useless. This also goes
for skimmers.

The 1st book is correct, toss the 2nd book.

2) I read another book and it says NEVER use a submersible pump, I read
the next and it says that submersible pumps are the cat's meow. They
both claim their choice is the most energy and pond efficient.

Both pumps have their uses. Large ponds usually use out of the water pumps
for efficiency and much better flow and maintenance.

3)I read another book that says NEVER put gravel on the bottom, then the
next one says use lots of gravel.

NEVER put gravel in the bottom, it will clog your bottom drain(s). And if
you don't have them, will be filled with muck. The day will come when
you'll have to muck out the pond, without a bottom drain, and that gravel
will be a bear to deal with.

A leading pond contractor here made me a design
his bid is very expensive.

Do it yourself, you'll know where all the pipes are buried. ;-)

Here is my thinking at the moment- I will become the general contractor
and sub out the physical work and plumbing following my own best guesses
based on my reading and recommendations from groups like this.

Sounds good.

I highly recommend reading the www.akca.org Click on Koi Health Advisor and
read the section on Pond Design. Especially if this is going to eventually
be a "koi" pond. It is a long article, but for the size of pond you're
doing, well worth checking out.

spray a fish safe liner

The people who do these spray on liners may have suggestions regarding your
existing pumping.

Is this crazy?

Oh course not! "What's that you say Doc? Time for my meds...
again!" ;-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

chip wrote
You mention a "veggie filter" in your pics. Is this the same as a
"Bog"? If you have a large and efficient enough veggie filter do you
need a mechanical filter? or a Pre-filter to catch the big stuff?
If
all that gunk settles in the bottom of the veggie filter, won't IT
fill
up fast? How often does it need cleaning and what do you do with the
poo?


I've done several different versions of a veggie filter.
Let's start off with the fact I have a lightly stocked pond,
fish, sometimes turtles and frogs.

A mechanical filter, to catch gunk, is a good idea. I've had one in
the pool before the waterfall.

Veggie filters
~ a shelf next to the pond, but attached, lined with a hose,
drilled every few inches. Water ran out thru rock and plants. Thing
filled up with plants, bonded to the rocks, chock full in two years.
DH yanked it all out.
~ water hyacinth floating in the waterfall pool
~ a light grid filled with watercress in the waterfall pool
~ baskets filled with watercress attached to the side of
the waterfall pool
~ watercress planted in the waterfall

All these worked for me, except for the shelf filter. Others had
problems related to dogs walking on the light grid, snails, or mice,
eating the cress in the baskets, cress filling in the waterfall so
much you couldn't hear the water.

This year I have a huge growth of hornwort, underwater plant, in the
pond. Water is loverly and clear.

When we clean the pond we shovel poo and put it around the trees (no
bottom drain).

Solo has a good description of a veggie filter on my tips page. Jim
and Phyllis have an awesome veggie filter set up.

More heavily stocked ponds benefit from more sophisticated filters.
Many different types of pond. I consider mine a critter pond as I've
had turtles, frogs and fish. Also like to have all sorts of insects
and worms and creepy crawlies. I have fishless pondlets on the deck so
I can study those critters up close.

k :-)

Chip,

Your project sounds wonderful. I am sure the koi folk will have good
tips on design. You don't need all the depth you have...tho it could
work easily enough as pond fish certainly can live in 3-8' water.
Cleaning the bottom, however, could get hard in a pool.

Others will have better suggestions about how to fill part of the
pool. I have enough Scottish blood that I would want the project
reversible. I would also want to think about how to pull water out of
the depth if there were to be a leak. I am sure the project has been
done before!

Veggie filters are small ponds or bogs with plants and settling
areas. The plants pull nutrients. Their roots act as mechanical
filters and they provide lots of surface for bacteria. Well designed,
they provide about all you need as filtration. You can see ours on
our website (see our profile). We need to update the pics, but the
design holds the same. Maintenance involves draining them annually
through the 2" drains on the bottom of each pond. That makes ponding
a lot more fun! No weekly filter clearing.

Bottom drains are WONDERFUL. They pull muck out of your pond that
would otherwise collect. The fish stir and the drain cleans. You
don't have to go in! We have our pump submerged. It sits in a 5 gal
bucket with as many 1/2" holes as I could put in it. That way no big
stuff gets into the pump. It has lived there for 10 years running
24/7. No clog, no failure. It is plumbed so the we can pull it when
it fails...sometime.

The pump bucket is set on bricks, about 4" off the bottom of our 'deel
well' (old septic tank). Once a year, I use a pool net to pull out
the pine cones and such that were swept in by koi movement. That is
our hardest cleaning task. It takes about 15 min.

We have never had to clean the main pond. The smooth surface allows
that. Save yourself...NO gravel. Think 'muck trap'...think
'impossible to clean'...think 'pain in the foot'. I suspect the
chorus from ponders on this group will shout 'no gravel'.

I like the idea of kids being able to swim in the pond. That will
take some thinking about access, liner strength and especially
slippery issues. The pond will be lined with algae. It is slippery.
I thought our kids might want to float in our cement pond (uniform 2'
depth). They don't like the water color (tea) or the algae in it. The
only floater in ther is I. They thought 'swimming pool with fish'.
They don't like 'the old farm pond'.

Suggestions: Read up well before building (Our reading has saved us
lots of pain). Post on several groups and keep politely asking
questions until you feel very comfortable about the consensus. Make
it larger and somewhat deeper than you think you need. Have plenty of
pump power. Have good veggie filters and the lowest maintenance you
can achieve. Keep people posted on progress...with pics (we enjoy
seeing them)!

Best to you.

Jim

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 09:22:02 CST, Phyllis and Jim
wrote:
Cleaning the bottom, however, could get hard in a pool.
........... my two big ponds get drained, cleaned and refilled every
other year. my present KOI pond has NEVER been cleaned. I can still
see the wrinkles in the liner at the bottom, altho the koi have
removed the gravel from the lily pot and spread it all over the
bottom... argghh. I can still see the white label from the lily they
removed and dropped. the koi do seem to be trying to clean the bottom
cause I find gravel in the bucket filter when I bring that up.
Ingrid

We have never had to clean the main pond. The smooth surface allows
that. Save yourself...NO gravel. Think 'muck trap'...think
'impossible to clean'...think 'pain in the foot'. I suspect the
chorus from ponders on this group will shout 'no gravel'.

........... exactly

THIS IS GREAT.... way cool. dont need to rip up ANYTHING. using
sandbags and a liner and can make the pool as shallow or deep as you
like and put the plumbing where you want it. way to go. I didnt
think about chlorine in the pool, but if the pool is now filled just
test the water. no chlorine, no problem.

the only issue I have is the veggie filter. Waaaaaay over engineered.
and the gravel isnt necessary. I DO like having a nice open spillway
right over the pond so nothing absolutely nothing is going to clog
return of the water into the pond. a low veggie filter can be shaped
to fit the curves of a pond and add all that nice greenery right where
it is wanted, rather than a big stack of wood sitting off to the side.
no mechanical filter is needed if the water enters the veggie filter
and slows down, either because the water spreads out or because the
filter is long enough to allow silts to fall to the bottom. it is
easy to stick a wet vac hose into the filter and suck up the mulm if
needed. Ingrid


On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 19:21:40 CST, ~ jan wrote:
Go he
http://kilk.com/pond/ He used sandbags in the pond to form the design he
wanted and lined it.

"Chip" wrote in message ...
I am converting my pool into a pond. I want to retain as much of the pool
and it's plumbing as possible, mainly because it is exactly where I want
the pond, I am cheap, and it seems a waste of time, effort and money to
tear up a fully functioning water-tight hole in the ground, to dig and
plumb another.

It is a large'ish hole- a kidney shaped, circa 1985 shotcrete/Marcite w/3'
of Kooldeck surround, 16'x35'x3'8.5' deep(~18,500 gal). For several
reasons I want to retain much of the shape and size of the current pool.

I know that pool plumbing is not the same as pond plumbing, but here's the
situation. In addition, to the normal 2" bottom drain and 2" skimmer, I
have 14 (yes, fourteen) 2" cleaning outlets that sweep the bottom of the
pool with jets of water. These could be converted to flow in the opposite
direction in a snap, so I could have 15 2" bottom drains or even a
combination of drains and returns. I also have 2-1.5" returns near the
top on opposite sides of the pool.

All suggestions, criticisms, and derisive chuckles welcome.

Chip

Your situation sounds great.

Ponds, unlike swimming pools, get a lot of junk. It is advisable to get as
much of the junk out as possible as early as possible. The best way to do
this is with a settlement chamber from the bottom drain before the pump.
The pump makes the junk into a mess of finer stuff that doesn't settle. To
be able to gravity flow the junk the bottom drain plumbing needs to be 4" or
even 6" piping. The bottom sweeping returns sound excellent to keep the
junk moving towards the bottom drain, keeping the pond very clean.

Pool pumps are high pressure pumps designed for pushing water through sand
filters and pond pumps are typically low pressure pumps made to move water
through lower pressure filters and piping. If the bottom drain can be
converted to gravity flow to the pump, the pump could be changed out for one
of the low head pond pumps, which use much less electricity than a pool
pump.

Sand filters on pools do not work on ponds. The biofilm will clog the sand
filter fairly quickly, trapping debris, but then not being able to get it
clean through backwash. They make bead filters that look like sand filters,
but they flow reverse, since the beads float. As a trapping filter, this
might be a way to keep all plumbing and pumps currently in place. It would
just need a frequent backwash, which is a simple turn of a handle, turn of
pump, turn on blower, turn on pump and turn handle. The waste line would be
the same line the pool filter currently uses. The backwash would help to
give the recommended water changes that the pond needs anyway. Takes about
5 minutes.

this is only true where there are trees that shed their leaves into
the pond. in the city there arent overhanging trees back there AND I
have a fine net over my pond keeps the rest out.

with a low fish volume and no overhanging trees or neighbors trees
that shed into the pond or the wind blows the leaves into the pond,
there wont be a lot of junk. one caution. pine trees that shed
needles and cones are a royal pain. they jam the pumps as well as
fill the pond with acidic organics. Ingrid

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 07:13:14 CST, "RichToyBox"
Ponds, unlike swimming pools, get a lot of junk. It is advisable to get as
much of the junk out as possible as early as possible.

RichToyBox wrote:

Pool pumps are high pressure pumps designed for pushing water through sand
filters and pond pumps are typically low pressure pumps made to move water
through lower pressure filters and piping. If the bottom drain can be
converted to gravity flow to the pump, the pump could be changed out for one
of the low head pond pumps, which use much less electricity than a pool
pump.

Sand filters on pools do not work on ponds. The biofilm will clog the sand
filter fairly quickly, trapping debris, but then not being able to get it
clean through backwash. They make bead filters that look like sand filters,
but they flow reverse, since the beads float. As a trapping filter, this
might be a way to keep all plumbing and pumps currently in place.

Where can I find out about these beads? Could I just swap out my
current sand and replace it with beads in my current container? I have
a reversible backwash. This could be a pre-filter for my planned
veggie-filter.

Chip

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:36:29 CST, Chip wrote:

RichToyBox wrote:

Pool pumps are high pressure pumps designed for pushing water through sand
filters and pond pumps are typically low pressure pumps made to move water
through lower pressure filters and piping. If the bottom drain can be
converted to gravity flow to the pump, the pump could be changed out for one
of the low head pond pumps, which use much less electricity than a pool
pump.

Sand filters on pools do not work on ponds. The biofilm will clog the sand
filter fairly quickly, trapping debris, but then not being able to get it
clean through backwash. They make bead filters that look like sand filters,
but they flow reverse, since the beads float. As a trapping filter, this
might be a way to keep all plumbing and pumps currently in place.

Where can I find out about these beads? Could I just swap out my
current sand and replace it with beads in my current container? I have
a reversible backwash. This could be a pre-filter for my planned
veggie-filter.

Chip

You mean this bead?
http://tinyurl.com/yrrfrp

"Chip" wrote in message ...

Where can I find out about these beads? Could I just swap out my current
sand and replace it with beads in my current container? I have a
reversible backwash. This could be a pre-filter for my planned
veggie-filter.

Chip

The beads in a bead filter are floating polyethylene beads. These same
beads are used in the manufacture of plastic items such as plastic
corrugated pipe, milk jugs, etc. If you can find a plastics manufacturer,
you can probably save a bundle over buying them from a pond outfit like
www.aquaticeco.com. The filter itself is usually a pool sand filter body.
The valve must be changed out or modified to have the water flow up, rather
than down in the filter position. The diatomatious earth filter heads are
designed for upflow. The filter body should be filled about half full of
the beads.

The commercial filters have added a spa blower 1.5 or 2 HP to blow air in
through the bottom during cleaning to break up the bead pack and get a good
cleaning. This is necessary with the standard low head filter. Without a
blower, a high pressure, high volume pump is required, and even then
periodically the filter must be opened to get all the bead pack broken up.

My favorite bead filter is the Sacremento Koi Advantage bead filters. They
have about the best design going. Their web site is
http://www.sacramentokoi.com/index.php and look at the advantage filter
system. They have pictures with dimensions, backwash instructions, about
bead filters, etc.

"RichToyBox" wrote:

My favorite bead filter is the Sacremento Koi Advantage bead filters. They
have about the best design going. Their web site is
http://www.sacramentokoi.com/index.php and look at the advantage filter
system. They have pictures with dimensions, backwash instructions, about
bead filters, etc.

Hi Rich,

I've been looking for a bead filter and have been trying to sift thru the
claims of the various manufacturers. They all 'seem' to be the best. Could
you tell me what it is about this bead filter that you like above the
others?


Thanks,

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.