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Fall Food Change
In another thread someone asked, "Does the change in temp require a change
in food." I knew I had read something recently and apparently I mentioned it to our local Newsletter Editor. So without further ado: www.midcolumbiakoi.com presents it's newsletter on-line. Click on Info, then click on Sept. Newsletter. Page 8 is the article I spoke of, written by Chris Neaves, for KOI USA Jan.-Feb issue 2006. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Fall Food Change
just remember that Chris Neaves makes and sells fish food.
Uhhhh.... all foods eaten need to be broken down UNLESS they are predigested. He says "The digestion of protein begins in the stomach using the enzyme pepsin." However, koi dont have stomachs, I dont know if koi produce pepsin in their mouths. Koi need and digest two things... protein and lipids (oil). They dont digest carbohydrates almost at all unless it has been highly processed and barely can utilize sugar. But bacteria sure can work on those carbs (producing.. wowowo.. gas!!) Koi eat itty bitty critters that live off the bacteria that grow on algae. Koi scrape the algae off to get the critters rich in protein and lipids so they do eat some of the green stuff grows in water. Plants that are land based have a great deal of cellulose that cant be digested. At low temps feed fish what they are finding in the ponds ... itty bitty critters like daphnia and even krill. and if they arent interested in the food, dont feed at all. mine wont eat below 50o and I wont foul the water with food then either. Ingrid So without further ado: www.midcolumbiakoi.com presents it's newsletter on-line. Click on Info, then click on Sept. Newsletter. Page 8 is the article I spoke of, written by Chris Neaves, |
Fall Food Change
In article ,
~ jan wrote: In another thread someone asked, "Does the change in temp require a change in food." I knew I had read something recently and apparently I mentioned it to our local Newsletter Editor. So without further ado: www.midcolumbiakoi.com presents it's newsletter on-line. Click on Info, then click on Sept. Newsletter. Page 8 is the article I spoke of, written by Chris Neaves, for KOI USA Jan.-Feb issue 2006. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us Wheat Germ formula for Winter. -- To reply by email, remove the word "space" |
Fall Food Change
wrote in message . com... (Brevity snips) At low temps feed fish what they are finding in the ponds ... itty bitty critters like daphnia and even krill. and if they arent interested in the food, dont feed at all. mine wont eat below 50o and I wont foul the water with food then either. Ingrid ================== Not everyone can afford to feed a school of koi something like krill or daphnia, more costly than fresh shrimp or prime rib. That's fine if you only have a few koi but some of us have many fish in our ponds. It would cost me hundreds of dollars a month. My koi are thriving on a mix of dry cat food, trout and catfish chow with treats of worms and canned mackerel. They also get an occasional piece of orange, whole wheat bread which they love and some duckweed when it'll grow. I know some will strongly disagree with what I feed my koi and goldfish but they not only thrive but we're again inundated with healthy new fry. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
Fall Food Change
On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:32:08 CST, Kurt wrote:
So without further ado: www.midcolumbiakoi.com presents it's newsletter on-line. Click on Info, then click on Sept. Newsletter. Page 8 is the article I spoke of, written by Chris Neaves, for KOI USA Jan.-Feb issue 2006. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us Wheat Germ formula for Winter. But it isn't necessary, according to the article. :-) ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Fall Food Change
Not everyone can afford to feed a school of koi something like krill or
daphnia, more costly than fresh shrimp or prime rib. That's fine if you only have a few koi but some of us have many fish in our ponds. It would cost me hundreds of dollars a month. My koi are thriving on a mix of dry cat food, trout and catfish chow with treats of worms and canned mackerel. They also get an occasional piece of orange, whole wheat bread which they love and some duckweed when it'll grow. I know some will strongly disagree with what I feed my koi and goldfish but they not only thrive but we're again inundated with healthy new fry. That's great. Koi will thrive on alternative feeds, the problem lies in longevity & water quality can suffer. Just like humans thrive on Big Macs & fries, and it comes back to haunt them later. :-) Better, imho, would be to reduce stock so you can feed them the recommended koi feeds. I saw a pond on a pond tour with very yellowish water, discovered they were feeding dog food. Koi colors were also very dull. I know your ponds are well planted, water quality clear, and koi bright from pictures you have posted. I'm quite sure your koi are getting a lot of natural foods just from the pond itself. The problem with telling others you feed non-koi foods is they may not have a similar set-up that alleviates the ills of feeding non-koi foods. ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Fall Food Change
BULK freeze dried Krill 1.1 LBS) SPECIAL $25.00
Krill is maybe something like 90% water, so they also offer Frozen Krill(~6.6 LBS.) SALE $30.00 is about 4.54 per pound Empire fish (freshest and best in Milwaukee)... frozen shrimp, 6.40 per pounds sirloin steak is 2.98 on special Omega 1 GF food pellets 2.75 lb ~ $26.99 = 9.80 per lb what is the cost of your food? and if that food is 70% filler or cant be digested, what is the cost per lb? I went thru this with our dog food and ended up that if we keep the price $1 per lb we can beat the price of reasonably good, commercial dry dog food. Feeding a natural diet of raw meaty bone has obvious health benefits, if nothing else, my dogs dont need dentals once a year. I have 23 koi. they get 1 cup of the dry krill per day. This spring before my veggie filter got up and running the water cleared immediately when I switched to krill and quit feeding dry pellet food. We do spend a lot on good food and vet care and facilities for our pets/zoo. If/when we cannot, we will find homes that can. Ingrid Not everyone can afford to feed a school of koi something like krill or daphnia, more costly than fresh shrimp or prime rib. That's fine if you only have a few koi but some of us have many fish in our ponds. |
Fall Food Change
wrote in message . com... BULK freeze dried Krill 1.1 LBS) SPECIAL $25.00 Krill is maybe something like 90% water, so they also offer Frozen Krill(~6.6 LBS.) SALE $30.00 is about 4.54 per pound Empire fish (freshest and best in Milwaukee)... frozen shrimp, 6.40 per pounds sirloin steak is 2.98 on special You're quoting prices that shock me as you can't find fresh shrimp here for under $10.00 lb. The cheapest cuts of beef are more than $2.98 lb. nowadays. Omega 1 GF food pellets 2.75 lb ~ $26.99 = 9.80 per lb what is the cost of your food? and if that food is 70% filler or cant be digested, what is the cost per lb? I guess my fish are digesting it just fine since their colors are deep and vivid, they're not obese, the water is crystal clear and they reproduce all out of proportion to what the ponds can carry, necessitating draining them down every spring to remove the fry. The 50lb bag of trout chow and bag of catfish chow was $12 I think. $10 when it's on sale. I went thru this with our dog food and ended up that if we keep the price $1 per lb we can beat the price of reasonably good, commercial dry dog food. Feeding a natural diet of raw meaty bone has obvious health benefits, if nothing else, my dogs dont need dentals once a year. It sounds like a more natural diet that the dry food most people feed them. In the wild wolves eat everything from the internal organs to the muscle and marrow ends of the bones. Supplying such foods can be expensive if the dog is large or you have many dogs. I have 23 koi. they get 1 cup of the dry krill per day. This spring before my veggie filter got up and running the water cleared immediately when I switched to krill and quit feeding dry pellet food. We do spend a lot on good food and vet care and facilities for our pets/zoo. If/when we cannot, we will find homes that can. Ingrid Good idea. I'm sure you did find them good homes where they are happy and well cared for. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
Fall Food Change
1. It isnt sinister, it just doesnt give him any credibility. His plagiarism when
his articles first appeared didnt help at all either. And yes, that IS still relevant and will be forever. It is his history. Plagiarism might not mean anything to most people, but to trained scientists it is an abomination, it is grand theft hard earned work. The question is.. who IS Chris Neaves? What is his scientific background? What does he do for a living? We have been down this road before with Koivorkian, a vet who didnt have any specific background in fish when he started but hopefully, after killing all his fish (once, twice?) has maybe learned something, but who, after all, is in it for the money. OTOH, people like Brett who makes a living breeding koi have the experience in addition to the schooling and are very believable because he isnt online hawking anything. Compare Neaves with Noga, who puts together and properly cites and credits real scientific information. There are tons of those "little big books" out there at pet stores that are nothing but a brainless rehashing of long discredited methods by other hacks parading as experts. Why is it that we still talk about "goldfish bowls" and they are still selling people a dozen little goldfish and a 10 gallon tank? The "idiot books" have been replaced by a plethora of online idiot hacks who take bits and pieces of other peoples information, copy the information out of the "idiot books" without regard for whether the information has any value what so ever and mish mash it up on their website. A lot of it is "chum" to drag people to their websites where ads are placed, every hit on a site = money from the ads. Do a search for "dropsy" and you will find nearly everyone saying it is hopeless, there is no treatment. Or, they give the most atrocious advice, like running the salt up. 2. SO??? All this proves is he has the time to sit down and type. Writing something doesnt mean it has any value at all. It isnt like scientists or a scientific book company came to him and asked him to pull together current thinking in koi health, nutrition and filtration. Printing it doesnt make it so, any idiot can get a book published, smart idiots get other people to print it for them or they would have to print it themselves (vanity press). 3. I most certainly am not misreading it. He is introducing the idea by way of an analogy. Now this could be crappy writing or not. BUT WHY MENTION IT AT ALL?? If I was writing the article I would say "Unlike most animals where digestion starts in the mouth with the addition of pepsin and continues in the stomach with HCl, Koi, WHICH HAVE NO STOMACH OR PEPSIN, only digest foods in the intestines by ....... . His writing is typical of my freshman. Just toss in enough unrelated bullshit and see if any of it sticks .. or impresses. That sentence is at the irrelevant and at worst misleading. So you, me and how many others KNOW that koi dont have stomachs?? 4. I am not only concerned with where a writer ends up, but with how he gets there. Spot on with this issue, off by a mile on others if the journey is flawed. Ingrid On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:42:15 CST, ~ jan wrote: On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:01:17 CST, wrote: just remember that Chris Neaves makes and sells fish food. 1. You type that like it is some sinister thing? 2Koi related, he's researched and written 3 books on Koi health, nutrition and filtration. says "The digestion of protein begins in the stomach using the enzyme pepsin." However, koi dont have stomachs, I dont know if koi produce pepsin in their mouths. 3. I think you're misreading that, koi are not mentioned in that paragraph from which the quote was taken. The statement above is misleading the reader to believe that Chris Neaves said koi have stomachs, damaging his credibility. I read that paragraph as an "in general this happens during digestion (any digestion)" nothing to do with koi digestion per se. 4. "Is wheat germ actually more easily digestible than animal protein? The answer seems to be no. Plant protein is bound up in the cells— tough cellulose cells. |
Fall Food Change
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:06:17 CST, wrote:
1. It isnt sinister, it just doesnt give him any credibility. His plagiarism when his articles first appeared didnt help at all either. And yes, that IS still relevant and will be forever. It is his history. Plagiarism might not mean anything to most people, but to trained scientists it is an abomination, it is grand theft hard earned work. That's quite an accusation. And he plagiarized? The question is.. who IS Chris Neaves? His bio is on the web. Koi Chris Neaves It probably won't impress you. A lay person can't be educated in other interests without a degree? Deleted stuff that, imho, had nothing to do with the article I posted. His writing is typical of my freshman. Well I guess as a lay person, I had no problem understanding, and liked it as written. If that makes me an idiot, well, I've been called worst in RP. ;-) Spot on with this issue, off by a mile on others if the journey is flawed. But I wasn't talking about others, only this issue. And if I understand that sentence above correctly he got this one somewhat sorta kindda right? Actually I was hoping I hear, nice newsletter, to be honest, especially with all those colored pictures of ponds. I sure seem to be starting hot topics lately. :-) ~ jan ------------ Zone 7a, SE Washington State Ponds: www.jjspond.us |
Fall Food Change
Does anyone know what the wild carp eat in the winter?
Jim |
Fall Food Change
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:10:37 CST, ~ jan wrote:
Actually I was hoping I hear, nice newsletter, to be honest, especially with all those colored pictures of ponds. I sure seem to be starting hot topics lately. :-) ~ jan I enjoyed the newsletter Jan, thanks for the URL. I'm sorry I didn't say so sooner, but I always enjoy Ingrid's input too. -- Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8 http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb |
Fall Food Change
"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message oups.com... Does anyone know what the wild carp eat in the winter? ============================== Beyond a certain temperature I don't believe wild carp eat. They're metabolism is so slow they lose interest in food. But feeding them in winter if they're hungry doesn't kill them I found. Not one died from rotten food in their gut. I believe that's an old wives tale. Mine will be fed as long as they show interest in food. -- RM.... Frugal ponding since 1995. rec.ponder since late 1996. Zone 6. Middle TN USA ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö |
Fall Food Change
why is this entire thread being posted on
http://www.gardenbanter.co.uk/showthread.php?p=750062 ????? Ingrid |
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