~ jan wrote:

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:35:32 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:


....stirring make it freeze immediately....

That goes against the principal that moving water doesn't freeze as fast
as still water, doesn't it? ~ jan

Still water will likely locally reach freezing point sooner than moving
water, but I was talking about supercooling, which is what "hyperchilling"
sounds like. If you have pure water (the purer the better) in a glass in
the freezer, you can probably get it to a few degrees below freezing - as
soon as you disturb it, or drop in a single grain of salt it will freeze
solid. Another simple example is to put a bottle of beer in a freezer.
You can take it out, see that it's still liquid, but the moment you pop the
cap it will freeze - it starts to crystallize around the released bubbles
of CO2.

Also, note that the common trick of preventing water from freezing in pipes
by leaving a faucet dripping has nothing to do with moving water not
freezing as fast as still water. That just involves bringing water from a
supply system at 10C fast enough that it never has time to freeze.

I just don't buy the idea that a goldfish can be "hyperchilled". Either
that means the water was sub-freezing - which shouldn't be possible in a
pond - or it means that some point above freezing is too cold for them, and
I have ample evidence that they survive well down to 0C (though I have,
from time to time, found little frozen bodies embedded in the ice - they
don't take that well!).
--
derek

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:26:52 CST, Derek Broughton
wrote:

That goes against the principal that moving water doesn't freeze as fast
as still water, doesn't it? ~ jan

Still water will likely locally reach freezing point sooner than moving
water, but I was talking about supercooling, which is what "hyperchilling"
sounds like. If you have pure water (the purer the better) in a glass in
the freezer, you can probably get it to a few degrees below freezing - as
soon as you disturb it, or drop in a single grain of salt it will freeze
solid. Another simple example is to put a bottle of beer in a freezer.
You can take it out, see that it's still liquid, but the moment you pop the
cap it will freeze - it starts to crystallize around the released bubbles
of CO2.

Also, note that the common trick of preventing water from freezing in pipes
by leaving a faucet dripping has nothing to do with moving water not
freezing as fast as still water. That just involves bringing water from a
supply system at 10C fast enough that it never has time to freeze.

I just don't buy the idea that a goldfish can be "hyperchilled". Either
that means the water was sub-freezing - which shouldn't be possible in a
pond - or it means that some point above freezing is too cold for them, and
I have ample evidence that they survive well down to 0C (though I have,
from time to time, found little frozen bodies embedded in the ice - they
don't take that well!).

Check my reasoning.... So the reason slow flow movement in a pond keeps an
area liquid is, 1) because it isn't pure, and 2) it is keeping the temp
mixed? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

~ jan wrote:

Check my reasoning.... So the reason slow flow movement in a pond keeps an
area liquid is, 1) because it isn't pure,

No. If the water is actually below 0C, it's going to freeze. Whether or not
it's moving will make no difference.

and 2) it is keeping the temp mixed?

Pretty much - the water in contact with the ground at the bottom of the pond
is going to be warmest (if it gets cold enough that the frost reaches that
far, it will _still_ be warmest, because it's going to be darn cold at the
surface!), so moving it is essentially speeding up the transfer of heat
from the ground throughout the pond. It's also speeding up the transfer of
heat from the water to the air - but if your pond is mostly frozen, that
heat transfer will be much slower than the transfer from the ground.

--
derek

YES. altho 15" is really the limit.
#1 way to keep water open is covering the pond as close to the surface as possible.
EVEN IF THE ELECTRICITY GOES OUT, this will keep the pond pretty open, at least slow
freezing for several days.
#2 is keeping water moving, best is a small air bubbler AND a little pump, like one
of these http://weloveteaching.com/mypond/win...ondheater.html
the air stone puts in oxygen which is very good for the fish, the pump keeps the
water moving even if the air stone freezes up.
#3 is a heater of some kind. that flat one shown above is a low watt heater. this
one wont melt the side of the pond if it touches. only if you can put a bar across
the pond then hang a 100 watt heater from it so it wont touch the sides or bottom.
aim the pump output at the heater to move heat away

Ingrid


On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:53:29 CST, ~ jan wrote:

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:09:17 CST, "Henry & Carolyn"
wrote:

You can also cover the pond with a heavy plastic like we do. We make a
rough frame of 2x4's over the pond at drape the plastic over that. We do
all this and live is SW Ontario and the pond has never totally frozen over.


Yes, good point, that will make a BIG difference, just talk with Ingrid who
is able to feed her fish most of the winter by covering and supplying a
little heat.

I wonder if the OP was looking for a cheap up front cost, or power usage?
Pay a little more and lower the power usage, or pay a little up front and
pay over time via more power? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:37:37 CST, wrote:

#3 is a heater of some kind. that flat one shown above is a low watt heater. this
one wont melt the side of the pond if it touches. only if you can put a bar across
the pond then hang a 100 watt heater from it so it wont touch the sides or bottom.
aim the pump output at the heater to move heat away

Ingrid

Is that a bird bath heater by chance? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

In the past it seemed the fish would just stop eating and being active. This
year, I had ice on top of the pond a day ago, but today they were wanting to
be fed again!

I know the water temp has to be way below 55, but these guys still seem like
they want food.


--
Gareee
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

Thanks for all the good ideas...I am thinking to build 2x4 frame and cover
with 4mil clear plastic and drape over pond, I have small air bubler pump
that I can use......the link Ingrid provided for low watage pond heater
does not work, is anyone famaliar with this heater
http://www.aqua-mart.com/flph.html or if I cover and put bubler in pond
should I put heater in as well? tia

In article ,
"Gareee©" wrote:

In the past it seemed the fish would just stop eating and being active. This
year, I had ice on top of the pond a day ago, but today they were wanting to
be fed again!

I know the water temp has to be way below 55, but these guys still seem like
they want food.

Same here!, but no ice.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

"Gareee©" wrote in message
...
In the past it seemed the fish would just stop eating and being active.
This year, I had ice on top of the pond a day ago, but today they were
wanting to be fed again!

I know the water temp has to be way below 55, but these guys still seem
like they want food.
=========================
As long as my fish show interest, I'll be feeding them from now on. The koi
are not interested in food anymore but the GF sure are.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

wrote:

YES. altho 15" is really the limit.
#1 way to keep water open is covering the pond as close to the surface as
#possible.
EVEN IF THE ELECTRICITY GOES OUT, this will keep the pond pretty open, at
least slow freezing for several days.

Nobody has mentioned a technique usually used for somewhat deeper ponds.
_After_ ice forms, pump a little water out to leave a gap between the ice
and water. This works as well as covering with plastic, but I suspect it's
a bit too tricky to try it with only 15" to work with in the first place.
--
derek

yeah, thats what it is. Ingrid

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:56:16 CST, ~ jan wrote:
Is that a bird bath heater by chance? ~ jan

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:30:59 CST, wrote:

http://www.aqua-mart.com/flph.html or if I cover and put bubler in pond
should I put heater in as well? tia

That's the heater I use in the lily pond with a bubbler. All the fish made
it thru the winter. We've been holding pretty steady around 32F the last
several days and the lily pond is currently 38F. My koi ponds, even after
the 1000 watt heater having power all day is only at 40F. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:14:50 CST, wrote:

yeah, thats what it is. Ingrid

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 14:56:16 CST, ~ jan wrote:
Is that a bird bath heater by chance? ~ jan

K. The link you had didn't work, but I found it he
http://allpetvetsupply.stores.yahoo.net/equmfrm001.html :-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

the ice must be thick to support it across the pond and yes, the pond must be pretty
deep. this is used in zone 4 and colder, like in Sweden IIRC. Ingrid

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:14:36 CST, Derek Broughton wrote:
Nobody has mentioned a technique usually used for somewhat deeper ponds.
_After_ ice forms, pump a little water out to leave a gap between the ice
and water. This works as well as covering with plastic, but I suspect it's
a bit too tricky to try it with only 15" to work with in the first place.

I cant remember, is your pond covered?
what was the temp before and after adding the heater? does this heater turn off at
34o or so? Ingrid

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:28:44 CST, ~ jan wrote:
My koi ponds, even after the 1000 watt heater having power all day is only at 40F.