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Old 24-01-2008, 09:19 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

If I wanted to add 5ppm ammonia. How many mls, oz, or maybe drops would
I add of 10% ammonium hydroxide to a 5 gallon tank?

================
Hi Stumpy, if you aquarium is only 5 gallons it is much too small for a
goldfish. A small healthy well fed young goldfish will outgrow it in well
under a year. You would be much better off with a betta or a few small
tetras. Healthy GF can reach a foot in length.
--


Point taken, this is a fluid situation. Wife wanted a Jack Dempsey, I
insisted we start with a goldfish to condition the tank. She ended up
liking the goldfish as the end in itself.

Maybe there is a dwarf goldfish?

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Old 24-01-2008, 09:19 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

Stumpy wrote:



If I wanted to add 5ppm ammonia. How many mls, oz, or maybe drops would I
add of 10% ammonium hydroxide to a 5 gallon tank?


Sorry, I dont know the answer as I've never tried this myself although
have known/read about many people who have done so. This article gives
you some background reading as to how to do it:-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...article_id=113

I think the articles that NetMax is referring to were by a Dr Chris Cow
- might be possible to find them using google.

Other options open to you might be using a product such as BioSpira or
Bactinettes - again I've not tried them myself but have heard good
reports. Or if you know anyone with a fish tank "borrow" some mature
filter medium from them to speed up the cycle in your tank.

How big is your tank? The above seems to suggest it is 5 gall. If this
is the case then you should seriously reconsider using it to house a
goldfish. Contrary to popular myths, goldfish need a much larger home to
live and grow to their full potential. They are also "messy" fish so in
a tank that small you will forever be fighting water chemistry issues. A
5 gall tank, with an added heater, can make a very attractive home for
smaller tropicals - neon tetras, cherry barbs, a betta spring instantly
to mind - mainly as I have kept all 3 in tanks of this size.

HTH

Gill

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Old 24-01-2008, 09:25 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Jan 23, 6:33*pm, Marco Schwarz wrote:
Hi U2..

NetMax wrote:
On Jan 19, 10:25*am, Gill Passman
wrote:


@ Gill:

Your tank won't continue cycling if there is nothing in there to produce
waste.


ACK..

You could possibly continue cycling the tank without fish using a
procedure known as "fishless cycling" - this is where you add small
amounts of ammonia to the tank and continue testing as if there are fish
in there - once you reach zero nitrites and ammonia your tank will be
cycled


Yes and no..! Fishless cycling is (of course!) fishless cycling but it's not
automatically a cycling with ammonia..

- never tried it myself but there are a lot of people who swear
by this technique as it doesn't involve any stress to fish.


Yes and no..

A good place to ask any of your questions is:-
http://groups.google.com/group/The-F...m?lnk=li&hl=en


ACK..

@ NM:

Hi Gill, the most recent articles on fishless cycling describe it
exactly as you're saying; replenishing the ammonia periodically
(daily). *I think this does result in a larger bacterial culture,


Well this kind of method might support bacterial cultures that prefer
_anorganic_ *N ressources while denitrifying bacteria generally seem to
prefer organic waste..

but
note that there is also a school of thought that levels of ammonia
which are too high can inhibit the bacteria which complete the process
taking the nitrite to nitrate (ref: never-ending cycle).


Hmm.., don't think so - any links available..?

--
cu
Marco


Hi Marco,
In regards to the different bacteria, agreed, however my understanding
is that unlike the aerobic nitrifying bacteria like nitrospira,
nitrobacter and nitrosomonas which reproduce every 16-18 hours, most
other bacteria follow a more typical reproduction cycle of about 20
minutes, so their establishment is less of a concern in a new
aquarium.

In regards to growth inhibition of specific bacteria under high
ammonia levels (producing a never-ending nitrite spike), I can't say
that I'm an advocate of that idea, but the discusssions have come up
in RAFM, AA and now TFA on the topic. I think Frank was more vocal
pulling out references (if you wanted to search on the subject by
author), and like myself, thinking that there's really nothing wrong
with the old method of using a single ammonia load, provided it's not
taken to an extreme. If you search on fishless cycling, you come up
with many references to the original and revised recipe, but it's hard
to separate science from anecdotes, so I'll only point you to one site
which I've always found very credible.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/doc...fishless.shtml

In regards to *what* ammonia, Badman's site has a 3rd recipe developed
with a chemist which states:
snip Use ammonium chloride, not ammonium hydroxide. Ammonia
hydroxide will bring your pH too low and cause you to lose alkalinity
and likewise your bacteria population. NH4Cl is available from pretty
much every chemical company at a reasonable price.snip
If you can't find ammonium chloride, then this is something to watch
for as low pH will cause bacteria to go dormant. The rest of the
article is here.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html
Badmantropicalfish doesn't have the same scientific depth as
skepticalaquarist (imo), but has been around long enough to be a good
read.

hth
NetMax

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Old 25-01-2008, 01:07 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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In regards to growth inhibition of specific bacteria under high
ammonia levels (producing a never-ending nitrite spike), I can't say
that I'm an advocate of that idea, but the discusssions have come up
in RAFM, AA and now TFA on the topic. I think Frank was more vocal
pulling out references (if you wanted to search on the subject by
author), and like myself, thinking that there's really nothing wrong
with the old method of using a single ammonia load, provided it's not
taken to an extreme. If you search on fishless cycling, you come up
with many references to the original and revised recipe, but it's hard
to separate science from anecdotes, so I'll only point you to one site
which I've always found very credible.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/doc...fishless.shtml



I like the suggestion about "natural ammonia".

Price is right.

Maybe I'll pull out a stepstool and a tablespoon after the rest of the
household is asleep.

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Old 25-01-2008, 02:04 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry


"Stumpy" wrote in message
...
If I wanted to add 5ppm ammonia. How many mls, oz, or maybe drops would
I add of 10% ammonium hydroxide to a 5 gallon tank?

================
Hi Stumpy, if you aquarium is only 5 gallons it is much too small for a
goldfish. A small healthy well fed young goldfish will outgrow it in well
under a year. You would be much better off with a betta or a few small
tetras. Healthy GF can reach a foot in length.
--


Point taken, this is a fluid situation. Wife wanted a Jack Dempsey, I
insisted we start with a goldfish to condition the tank. She ended up
liking the goldfish as the end in itself.

Maybe there is a dwarf goldfish?

============================
Nope! If you starve it, it will take longer to outgrow the tank (if it
lives) but will be ugly stunted and eventually deformed. It will die young.
It's also cruel. If she has her heart set on a GF you really need at least a
20g tank, a 30g Long would be even better.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(



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Old 25-01-2008, 08:49 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default Aquarium chemistry

On Jan 24, 9:04*pm, "Reel McKoi" wrote:
"Stumpy" wrote in message

... If I wanted to add 5ppm ammonia. *How many mls, oz, or maybe drops would
I add of 10% ammonium hydroxide to a 5 gallon tank?
================
Hi Stumpy, if you aquarium is only 5 gallons it is much too small for a
goldfish. A small healthy well fed young goldfish will outgrow it in well
under a year. You would be much better off with a betta or a few small
tetras. Healthy GF can reach a foot in length.
--


Point taken, *this is a fluid situation. *Wife wanted a Jack Dempsey, *I
insisted we start with a goldfish to condition the tank. *She ended up
liking the goldfish as the end in itself.


Maybe there is a dwarf goldfish?


============================
Nope! If you starve it, it will take longer to outgrow the tank (if it
lives) but will be ugly stunted and eventually deformed. It will die young.
It's also cruel. If she has her heart set on a GF you really need at least a
20g tank, a 30g Long would be even better.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. *Middle TN USA
~~~~ *}((((* *~~~ * }{{{{(


hmm, did I read a 5 gallon tank? Take a look at White Cloud minnows.
I think I seen a gold version of the WCM as well. Harlequin rasboras
are pretty and will tolerate a cooler tank (heating a 5g is an
entirely different story). Some non-fish choices for a 5g are an
Apple snail and an African Dwarf frog. Back to fish, a single Betta,
or similarly sized Anabantidae (ie: Paradisefish) would be ok in a 5g.

I personally don't operate small tanks much, as I find that they can
be more work than larger tanks (in terms of stability, filtering,
heating etc). When I think 5g, I think of my water change pail ;~)
but many talented folks operate gorgeous nano tanks (not with Goldfish
though!).

As for priming the cycle naturally with a step stool, I'm sure you're
not the first or last to do this. Many years ago, people would drop a
shrimp in (from your grocery store's frozen food selection), and the
decay would release enough ammonia to kick start the process, so you
see, there are many ways to approach this.

NetMax

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Old 26-01-2008, 05:51 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:19:11 CST, "Stumpy" wrote:

Maybe there is a dwarf goldfish?


At the risk of getting a negative reaction, I reply..... ;-)

If you know someone with baby fantail goldfish, you could put 2 tiny ones
in a 5 gallon. Plant the tank with live plants, Then feed only 1 flake of
food each/day, with a partial water change only twice/month.

I've fool around doing this in the past, as I've had tons of baby fantails
at times. I did mine in a 2 gallon tank. They stayed small, but eventually
I didn't have time for my little tank experiments, put them in regular size
tanks and they grew normal. Never saw deformities or stunting... other than
I slowed them down at the beginning.

In fact, I have found, if I grow my goldfish slow via food control (not
water quality or space) they keep their color much better than a fish that
is fed a lot and allowed to grow quickly. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 26-01-2008, 09:39 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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~ jan wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:19:11 CST, "Stumpy" wrote:


Maybe there is a dwarf goldfish?



At the risk of getting a negative reaction, I reply..... ;-)


I think it would be true to say that all of us have at sometime done
this.....knowing what I know now I would only suggest that those who
know what they are doing and have other options available attempt it ;-)




If you know someone with baby fantail goldfish, you could put 2 tiny ones
in a 5 gallon. Plant the tank with live plants, Then feed only 1 flake of
food each/day, with a partial water change only twice/month.


I would suggest twice weekly rather than monthly to maintain the water
quality......I do this on my small 5 gall tropical tanks that are
planted with a far lower bio-load than goldfish would give....I'm sure
the only reason my goldfish lived in the small tanks we had in the
60s/70s only survived as long as they did because of the water changes...


I've fool around doing this in the past, as I've had tons of baby fantails
at times. I did mine in a 2 gallon tank. They stayed small, but eventually
I didn't have time for my little tank experiments, put them in regular size
tanks and they grew normal. Never saw deformities or stunting... other than
I slowed them down at the beginning.


In general, I don't think that goldfish kept in small tanks by the
"average" newbie even live long enough to suffer from their growth being
stunted......however, I can see with careful husbandary by someone that
knows what they are doing this can be a short term option. Indeed, most
of the goldfish I kept in tanks in latter years used to go in the old
pond once they reached a certain size.....wouldn't work with fancies in
my climate but with the common all garden goldfish it wasn't an issue......





In fact, I have found, if I grow my goldfish slow via food control (not
water quality or space) they keep their color much better than a fish that
is fed a lot and allowed to grow quickly. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us


Interesting....and probably has a basis in normal wild fish
development.....fry tend to scavange or be eaten themselves.....it is
the clever ones that survive and the brightly coloured ones that get a
better chance of breeding.......and the clever ones aren't usually the
risk takers that pig out at feeding time because of the risk of becoming
dinner themselves......

Gill

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Old 27-01-2008, 02:24 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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FISHLESS CYCLING OF TANKS
rather than getting the RIGHT kind of ammonia and getting the RIGHT amount in the
tank, a pinch of Hikari Gold fish food for a small tank up to a tablespoon in a 75
gallon can be tossed into the tank, the heat set to 82oF and plenty of aeration. In
3 days or so watch the ammonia. If no ammonia is seen add more food.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care.htm

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Old 27-01-2008, 02:49 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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If you know someone with baby fantail goldfish, you could put 2 tiny ones
in a 5 gallon. Plant the tank with live plants, Then feed only 1 flake of
food each/day, with a partial water change only twice/month.


I would suggest twice weekly rather than monthly to maintain the water
quality......


The reason for few water changes is so the build up of hormones slows down
the growth cycle. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us



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FISHLESS CYCLING OF TANKS
rather than getting the RIGHT kind of ammonia and getting the RIGHT amount
in the
tank, a pinch of Hikari Gold fish food for a small tank up to a tablespoon
in a 75
gallon can be tossed into the tank, the heat set to 82oF and plenty of
aeration. In
3 days or so watch the ammonia. If no ammonia is seen add more food.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care.htm


I put in some goldfish pellets, raised the temp and 3 days later they are
covered in a white hairy cocoonlike cocoon. Looks like a fungus more than
normal decomposition. Is this OK?

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Old 31-01-2008, 02:57 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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sure. flake food breaks down better, but what is the ammonia like? when Hikari is
used there is ammonia in the water right away.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:23:53 CST, "Stumpy" wrote:

FISHLESS CYCLING OF TANKS
rather than getting the RIGHT kind of ammonia and getting the RIGHT amount
in the
tank, a pinch of Hikari Gold fish food for a small tank up to a tablespoon
in a 75
gallon can be tossed into the tank, the heat set to 82oF and plenty of
aeration. In
3 days or so watch the ammonia. If no ammonia is seen add more food.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care.htm


I put in some goldfish pellets, raised the temp and 3 days later they are
covered in a white hairy cocoonlike cocoon. Looks like a fungus more than
normal decomposition. Is this OK?


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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:23:53 CST, "Stumpy" wrote:

FISHLESS CYCLING OF TANKS
rather than getting the RIGHT kind of ammonia and getting the RIGHT amount
in the
tank, a pinch of Hikari Gold fish food for a small tank up to a tablespoon
in a 75
gallon can be tossed into the tank, the heat set to 82oF and plenty of
aeration. In
3 days or so watch the ammonia. If no ammonia is seen add more food.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/care.htm


I put in some goldfish pellets, raised the temp and 3 days later they are
covered in a white hairy cocoonlike cocoon. Looks like a fungus more than
normal decomposition. Is this OK?


My guess it is probably a water bound mold (if there is such a thing). I
doubt it is harmful. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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sure. flake food breaks down better, but what is the ammonia like? when
Hikari is
used there is ammonia in the water right away.


I put in some goldfish pellets, raised the temp and 3 days later they are
covered in a white hairy cocoonlike cocoon. Looks like a fungus more than
normal decomposition. Is this OK?



My test kit does not check ammonia. Nitrites and nitrates have not gone on
scale yet.

I was just going to wait until I see the nitrite peak and a nitrate surge
before getting fish.
It should have plenty of ammonia from "natural" source.

Test kit also says water is very hard, ~280, KH = 50, pH = 7.3

I added a lump of dead coral to get some calcium carbonate in there.

Was getting worried that the malachite green treatment had sterilized the
tank. The deceased goldfish's turds are still sitting on top of the gravel.
They should be munched up by now.

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Old 23-04-2011, 01:47 AM
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In your home aquarium, the fish should be kept in four lemons a similar environment. You need to provide intensive plantations, many large-leafed plants of the aquarium. Planted in a good aquarium, they will show their colors more vivid so you can fully enjoy the glory of this beautiful species.
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