After talking it over with my husband, now that he's retiring, I decided the
fish have to go. I'm not sure how we'll dispose of them in the spring
because the market here is flooded. The workload of caring for these two
ponds and the resulting endless stream of fry is more than we want to deal
with. There are no young people in the family to help. Predators are
forever after the fish which is a stress in itself. My husband thinks the
best thing to do is get rid of the fish, pull the nets off, leave a pump
running to keep them from getting stagnant and let them go to nature - frog
and turtle ponds.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Now this is a major change. How long have you been raising fish?

Jim

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
...
Now this is a major change. How long have you been raising fish?

Jim
=============================
I've had pond goldfish since 1995. I added koi around 1998. It's just too
much work for two seniors. We're both burnt out on it.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:31:01 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

best thing to do is get rid of the fish, pull the nets off, leave a pump
running to keep them from getting stagnant and let them go to nature - frog
and turtle ponds.

Sounds like an interesting pond to me. My biggest job last year was
cleaning my DIY filters and I'm hoping reducing the pond size from
1500 gallons to 500 will make that a bit easier. If that doesn't
work out for me, I'll be buying dirt and making a new flower bed for
butterflies in the future.

I've always enjoyed gardening and love to use a shovel. I didn't
start a pond until after retirement and then just to have something
interesting to do. Life has so many good things in which, we can
participate. I hope you don't feel you have to rush and your change
brings happiness.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:31:01 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

best thing to do is get rid of the fish, pull the nets off, leave a pump
running to keep them from getting stagnant and let them go to nature -
frog
and turtle ponds.

Sounds like an interesting pond to me.

It's sounding that way to us as well. :-) And don't think the nets aren't
a PIA when you have to do anything with the ponds.

My biggest job last year was
cleaning my DIY filters and I'm hoping reducing the pond size from
1500 gallons to 500 will make that a bit easier. If that doesn't
work out for me, I'll be buying dirt and making a new flower bed for
butterflies in the future.

I hear you. ;-) Cleaning/flushing the filters are something we both came
to dread, along with drain-downs to remove the excess and endless stream of
fry. I fell twice and injured myself on the slick liners trying to remove
overgrown plants and rocks that went to the bottom. Ands what am I getting
out of this? The fish predators here are numerous and cause us both endless
stress. If it's not water snakes around the grow-out tanks, they're out by
the ponds themselves, or it's the herons or other wildlife tearing the nets.
My husband has an aversion to snakes and for some reason the ponds draw them
like crazy. I'd rather give up the fish and not have to deal with these
things summer and winter. That GBH is still here. No amount of scaring it
off has worked. I'd rather spend my outdoor time working with my garden and
growing vggies and flowers - doing something pleasant. If a frog pond
doesn't work then we'll also mostly likely fill them in and make a nice
garden spot out front.

I've always enjoyed gardening and love to use a shovel. I didn't
start a pond until after retirement and then just to have something
interesting to do. Life has so many good things in which, we can
participate. I hope you don't feel you have to rush and your change
brings happiness.

No rush at all. Finding homes for this many fish is going to be the hardest
thing we face. Like I said, the market here is saturated as pond owner's
fish breed and people give them away or sell them for almost nothing. We
love gardening and always have. I have two greenhouses, a large plant filled
sun room and we have two nice size veggie gardens plus several flower beds.
At our ages that's more enjoyable and more our speed than constantly having
to work with the ponds. The only thing that concerns me if we leave them to
nature is the mosquitoes and dangerous snapping turtles that infest
un-netted ponds here.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Reel McKoi wrote:

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
...
Now this is a major change. How long have you been raising fish?

Jim
=============================
I've had pond goldfish since 1995. I added koi around 1998. It's just
too much work for two seniors. We're both burnt out on it.

Whoa--- I have just retired and decided that I want to convert my pool
into a natural fish pond so I can save the work of pool maintainance.
What am I missing here? Many books, articles,and people on this list
say that with proper design, pumps, and veggie filters a pond is
virtually maintainance free. Something doesn't jive. As I live in
Phoenix, there is no winter, just spring and HOT summer. Will that make
it harder or easier to maintain?

Chip

Chip

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:34:19 CST, Chip wrote:

Whoa--- I have just retired and decided that I want to convert my pool
into a natural fish pond so I can save the work of pool maintainance.
What am I missing here? Many books, articles,and people on this list
say that with proper design, pumps, and veggie filters a pond is
virtually maintainance free. Something doesn't jive. As I live in
Phoenix, there is no winter, just spring and HOT summer. Will that make
it harder or easier to maintain?

Chip

Easier, imo. My biggest job is fall when I have to cover them due to leaf
drop, and change things to prepare for winter. (See website)

Filter maintenance is based on how well you build that filter, and
sometimes that takes money. If people have it, like my sister, she put in
vortex filters. Plug a gate valve and the muck drains away.

My DYI filter is a bit more work, but by over sizing it, the maintenance is
rare. Once/year for the bio-filters and 4-5 times/year for the pre-filter.
I guess that is one thing I could have done different with little extra
cost, put a bottom drain in the pre-filter with either a pull plug or
valve, so I wouldn't have to wet vac it out. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Ponds do seem to demand differing amounts of attention.

Our main pond is self cleaning and requires no annual maintenance
beyond netting out the pine needles at the bottom of the deep well the
pump sits in. That can be done every third year.

Our berm ponds have 2" drains in the bottom, so can shut off the pump,
open the drains, and flush with pool water after.

That is is for the year.

Our main pond does not get many fry growing up as the mosquito fish,
koi and goldies eat them up.

The berm ponds are 4' x 8' and 18" deep. Draining 1/2 way makes
catching any fry up there easy. They make it better among the
hyacinth roots in the veggie filters than they do in the main pond.
If we don't pull them, they wipe out the next year's fry.

Our pump is now 10 yrs submerged and no problem.

Low maintenance.

Jim

"Chip" wrote in message ...
Reel McKoi wrote:

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
...
Now this is a major change. How long have you been raising fish?

Jim
=============================
I've had pond goldfish since 1995. I added koi around 1998. It's just
too much work for two seniors. We're both burnt out on it.

Whoa--- I have just retired and decided that I want to convert my pool
into a natural fish pond so I can save the work of pool maintainance.

I never had a pool so have no idea what maintaining one is like.

What am I missing here? Many books, articles,and people on this list say
that with proper design, pumps, and veggie filters a pond is virtually
maintainance free.

A lot we found depends on a person's income. Perhaps ponds can be
maintenance free if you have enough money to buy those self-cleaning
filters, install large plant filters (we do use a plant filter in the 2000g
pond as well as a Tetra filter. Both need regular manual flushing, a dirty
smelly job.) and if you can find affordable hired help to drain down the
pond at least once a year to remove unwanted fry and overgrown plants. And
you better have good insurance if they slip on the slimy liner and injure
themselves. The filters we use need constant flushing of the pads. The
"baskets" the pumps are in clog and need to be pulled up and hosed. It's
just tiresome and getting more than we want to deal with. Also, the number
of water snakes is increasing yearly and we can't tell the harmless ones
from the poisonous ones.

Something doesn't jive.

That's what I'm thinking too since the pond books and sites never mentioned
the work involved unless you can afford filters the average person can't.
We don't have high 5 or 6 figure incomes. They also never mention what
ponds draw, such as huge snapping turtles and water snakes. The books make
it sound like it's all pleasure. They don't mention the other side of the
coin and all coins have a flip side as you know. Yes, ponds are lovely,
they sound nice, fish are graceful to watch and lily blooms are
beautiful....... but the work is putting us off completely after all these
years.

As I live in
Phoenix, there is no winter, just spring and HOT summer. Will that make
it harder or easier to maintain?

That depends on what you have in your pond and what type of filtration you
can afford. Have you any idea how much some of those top quality filters
cost? And when the time comes to start removing all those fry what will you
do? Hire help? Drain it down yourself and net them yourself? Do do you
realize what a job that is? You first have to set up smaller kiddy pools or
tanks to put them in - with filters and aeration and a cycled filter. What
will you do with them all? The market is flooded with pond quality koi and
goldfish. Can you be cold hearted enough to kill them all? How? Who will
do the water tests for PH etc? You still have a lot of things that need to
be done to maintain fish in good health. There are partial water changes
that must be done. What about fish predators? How will you deal with them?
I'm sure you realize how dangerous large snapping turtles can be. We get
them here constantly. Sometimes they tear the nets and they then need
replacement.

Then if we want to sit on the front porch or down by the ponds, the
mosquitoes and black biting flies they draw harass us to the point we return
to the house. Or we can spray ourselves with DeepWoods-Off and have to
smell that chemical as we sit there. Pond books never mention such things.

--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

Don't panic!
Carol's problem, if I'm reading this right, is having to protect her
fish and dealing with lots of baby fish.
Most folks don't see the predators that Carol sees. In Arizona you
won't have water snakes and bullfrogs and snapping turtles.
Also you may not see as many herons and kingfishers that Carol
sees as she is out in the a more rural area. I see them in my
suburb but only a couple times a year. And mileage will always
vary.
I am the original lazy ponder. I don't filter, I don't mind predators.
I have a large volume of water to a small amt of fish and let
plants do their job. Basically the way a natural pond works.
A natural pond *will* fill in over time so we backyard ponders
will have to scoop it out from time to time but we will let that
chore go for a while (as long as we keep a hole open in the
ice). Fish are only part of the whole pond thing for us. We
love the frogs, turtles, birds that visit, squirrels that stop by
for drinks. We like the sound of the water and the waterlilies
and dragonflies.
You can be a lazy ponder or you can fall for koi and get
really carried away - they are amazing and I can see how
people can really structure a pond for them.
All in what you want to do.
k :-)

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Easier, imo. My biggest job is fall when I have to cover them due to leaf
drop, and change things to prepare for winter. (See website)

Filter maintenance is based on how well you build that filter, and
sometimes that takes money. If people have it, like my sister, she put in
vortex filters. Plug a gate valve and the muck drains away.
============================
That's similar to what our neighbor with the 6000 pond has. It's some kind
of stone/pebble filled huge monster of a filter that self flushes. But
they're wealthy and bought the best of everything. Price was no deterrent.
Draining down their pond is not the job it is for us because they're in
their 40s and have 2 strong young sons to help.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

I think experience and design are more important to maintenance than
cost. Especially if the ponder is doing the installation labor. Jim
built our ponds in several stages. He learned a lot from the group
and from the web and from the mistakes he made when he began.

For instance, if he had built the pond along the lines of his first
ideas, we would have lava rock filters with blue ac filter
prefilters. He would have to clean them all the time. As it is, the
slow-flow berm ponds catch the muck and need draining once a year. It
is cheaper to have a slow-flow pond with no prefilter than to change
out ac filters!

Time needed for maintenance is different from time spent on the pond.
Jim is forever looking to see how this or that is growing and he is
always coming up with something or other to change. I call that
puttering rather than maintenance.

Phyllis

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:56:27 CST, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

The only thing that concerns me if we leave them to
nature is the mosquitoes and dangerous snapping turtles that infest
un-netted ponds here.

I've never dealt with snapping turtles, but you have a good
imagination, I'm sure you will work that out. As far as mosquitoes,
more of them in my area come from pockets of moisture in vegetation
than ponds and puddles.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
...
I think experience and design are more important to maintenance than
cost. Especially if the ponder is doing the installation labor. Jim
built our ponds in several stages. He learned a lot from the group
and from the web and from the mistakes he made when he began.

Oh believe me, we learned a lot also. The original pond info we got back in
1996 never mentioned berms caving in like ours did, necessitating a major
fixing of the berms on both ponds. You remember me mentioning that about 2
years back. We had to pull the liners, reshape the sides and make reinforced
concrete berms with rebar going deep into the earth. First we had to make
the forms. Expensive and time consuming. Meanwhile the koi were in smaller
protected kiddy pools that needed constant care and partial water changes.
Many of us made mistakes because no one points out all the problems and
things that can go wrong.

For instance, if he had built the pond along the lines of his first
ideas, we would have lava rock filters with blue ac filter
prefilters. He would have to clean them all the time. As it is, the
slow-flow berm ponds catch the muck and need draining once a year. It
is cheaper to have a slow-flow pond with no prefilter than to change
out ac filters!

And for that you need the space and know-how how to built it. After all
these years I never saw or heard of a "slow-flow through berm pond." I
shudder to think what it would cost to hire someone to add these to both
ponds and in such a way they can be netted.

Time needed for maintenance is different from time spent on the pond.
Jim is forever looking to see how this or that is growing and he is
always coming up with something or other to change. I call that
puttering rather than maintenance.

A lot more information was available when you did your pond than when we put
these in in 1996 and 97. I never dreamed there would be so much maintenance
involved. Then, once the koi started to breed the maintenance increased.
There is no other way to remove fry than do a draindown and net them out. A
dirty smelly all day job as I mentioned before. In fact it usually takes us
an entire weekend or longer. It also means keeping "holding pools" ready for
use and cycling extra filters beforehand. That last time I slipped on the
slimy liner I thought my shoulder was broken. I could hardly use my arm for
days.

If we were wealthy we'd have a local pond service/builder come in and
replace the filters with no-maintenance filters and pumps plus one of those
slow-flow-through-plant-filters you mentioned (one pond already has one but
it runs through a tank). We'd hire them to do the drain downs and partial
water changes. But now with my husband about to retire in a few months,
that just isn't feasible.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"kathy" wrote in message
...
Don't panic!
Carol's problem, if I'm reading this right, is having to protect her
fish and dealing with lots of baby fish.

That's only one of the problems Kathy. The increasing snake population is
another concern.

Most folks don't see the predators that Carol sees. In Arizona you
won't have water snakes and bullfrogs and snapping turtles.
Also you may not see as many herons and kingfishers that Carol
sees as she is out in the a more rural area. I see them in my
suburb but only a couple times a year. And mileage will always
vary.

I'm also near a huge man-made lake where these water birds live and probably
breed.

I am the original lazy ponder. I don't filter, I don't mind predators.
I have a large volume of water to a small amt of fish and let
plants do their job. Basically the way a natural pond works.

That's what we'll most likely do and see how it works.

A natural pond *will* fill in over time so we backyard ponders
will have to scoop it out from time to time but we will let that
chore go for a while (as long as we keep a hole open in the
ice). Fish are only part of the whole pond thing for us. We
love the frogs, turtles, birds that visit, squirrels that stop by
for drinks. We like the sound of the water and the waterlilies
and dragonflies.

Ditto.

You can be a lazy ponder or you can fall for koi and get
really carried away - they are amazing and I can see how
people can really structure a pond for them.
All in what you want to do.
k :-)

I don't think it will be the same without fish but they're the cause of all
the work and need for nets.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö