On May 31, 7:27 am, Pond Addict wrote:
Congrats! Sounds like fun.

I had a bad experience with a knife valve a year or so ago and changed
all mine out for ball valves. Basically, I had a line coming from thebottomdrain to my pump and my builder had put knife valves on either
side of the pump. I'd power down, shut the valves, clear the leaf
basket in the pump, reopen and start things up again. Until... a
pebble decided to travel to the pond-side knife valve and lodge right
in thebottomgroove of the valve. I couldn't shut the flow off
completely anymore, so I couldn't open the pump basket. I should
mention that this pump is in my basement, in a "wet-ok" area, but not
an area where I could let the pond dump for several minutes while I
tried to clear the stone. And, if things went really wrong and I
couldn't plug the flood, I'd end up with 15,000 gallons of pond water
all around me.

I ended up having to go in the pond (6' down), remove thebottomdrain
cover, put a compression plug in the pipe for the drain, drain the
line water by undoing the plumbing after the knife valve (sweating
that the drain plug was tight enough since water flow continued), and
finally reaching in and pulling out the problem pebble which was less
than a 1/4" in diameter. When I put it all back together, I added a
ball valve after the knife valve since there was no easy way to get
the old valve off. I use ball valves all around now even though the
knife valve is still on there. One tiny pebble caused so much grief.

I hope your experience is better than mine in that respect. : )

Dave

Thanks Dave. I hope I never have that problem! Sounds like a real
head ache!
I do have a question though: How necessary is it to put cement around
the bottom drain to keep it from shifting? I have read a few tips on
installing them and they all say to put cement around the drain to
keep it from shifting and putting pressure on the liner. What are
your thoughts?
W. Dale

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:07:41 EDT, W Dale wrote:

I do have a question though: How necessary is it to put cement around
the bottom drain to keep it from shifting? I have read a few tips on
installing them and they all say to put cement around the drain to
keep it from shifting and putting pressure on the liner. What are
your thoughts?
W. Dale

Our club's Pres. first install he didn't use cement. It settled and the
liner stretched..... but thankfully didn't give out. He discovered it the
next year when he decided to remodel and used cement. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:07:41 EDT, W Dale wrote:

Thanks Dave. I hope I never have that problem! Sounds like a real
head ache!
I do have a question though: How necessary is it to put cement around
the bottom drain to keep it from shifting? I have read a few tips on
installing them and they all say to put cement around the drain to
keep it from shifting and putting pressure on the liner. What are
your thoughts?

I'm not Dave, but I would like to offer my opinion about knife valves
and bottom drains. I have mostly knife valves, but also a couple ball
valves. I probably would agree if I were a few years younger and a
bit stronger, but ball valves have become a challenge to me and I
sometimes have to use an extension (Adjustable wrench, usually.) to
operate the handle. Knife valves otoh can be moved much easier with
fingers alone, even in difficult to reach places.. I must plan and
place the valves in a higher point on the line so a pebble doesn't
stop at that point.

When I installed a bottom drain, the instructions called for a 5/8"
gap around the perimeter of the drain dome/cover. That seemed
excessive, so I did some measuring and planning and set the gap
somewhat closer. I did a good job of packing in the clay, took
several days of wetting packing and checking. Bottom line, over the
years the drain did move slightly. Not enough to be a problem, but if
I were to do it again, I'd do the measuring, planning and pour
concrete around the pipe into a hole made in undisturbed clay, because
that is the better chance of it moving less. Pipe contact with the
earth is small compared to the amount of surface contact with the glob
of cement poured around the pipe.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

I'm not sure of best approaches to installing a bottom drain, but I'd
adopt the attitude that it *will* shift and leak unless you do
everything to prevent that. That way, you've probably done all you
can. It's probably the last place you want a leak.

Hal, I totally agree with you about the difference in effort to work a
knife gate vs. a ball valve. I suppose I could have just added a ball
valve at the supply side (where stones might enter) for emergencies,
and a knife gate after that for routine use. I really felt the need to
have a positive shut off on the supply line, and then I switched out
my other valve for therapy.

Dave

Our ball valves are hard to turn as well. Didn't think about knife
valves when we built. Too bad.

Jim

On Jun 3, 9:57 pm, ~ jan wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:07:41 EDT, W Dale wrote:
I do have a question though: How necessary is it to put cement around
the bottom drain to keep it from shifting? I have read a few tips on
installing them and they all say to put cement around the drain to
keep it from shifting and putting pressure on the liner. What are
your thoughts?
W. Dale

Our club's Pres. first install he didn't use cement. It settled and the
liner stretched..... but thankfully didn't give out. He discovered it the
next year when he decided to remodel and used cement. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds:www.jjspond.us

Hummmm .... Ok... My neighbor installed a bottom drain, did not use
cement, and says that his is doing just fine. However, I suspect that
mine may move a bit so I will keep and eye on them as I did not pour
the cement around them but packed them down pretty tightly. We will
see. Give the comments I see here, I am now worried just a bit. I
will keep you posted.
W Dale

On Jun 5, 2:52 pm, Phyllis and Jim wrote:
Our ball valves are hard to turn as well. Didn't think about knife
valves when we built. Too bad.

Jim

I just turn my ball valves ever so often to keep them easy to turn.
Seems to work.

Pond liner update. Official: I have a leak some where in the liner.
losing about 2 inches of water per 24 hours. I turned the water fall
off just to make sure and sure enough, the water level in the 150
gallon stock tank has dropped only about 1/8 of an inch (if that) in
the past 24 hours while the pond has gone done more than 2 inches.
Bummer! Guess I am going to have the most expensive under layment in
ponding history! Rather than taking the BTL-24 liner out and
replacing it with EPDM, I will use it as and under layment if I cannot
find and repair the leak. and I have that sucker filled up too!
W. Dale

I hope you can find the leak. Let it go down to where the descent
stops. Add about 1/4" and begin dropping milk around the edge. You
should see the milk be pulled through the liner where a leak is. It
may not be the only one. May you find the leak at the top of your
area!

Jim

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:57:09 EDT, W Dale wrote:

I just turn my ball valves ever so often to keep them easy to turn.
Seems to work.

Glad it works for you.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

On Jun 17, 8:45 pm, Phyllis and Jim wrote:
I hope you can find the leak. Let it go down to where the descent
stops. Add about 1/4" and begin dropping milk around the edge. You
should see the milk be pulled through the liner where a leak is. It
may not be the only one. May you find the leak at the top of your
area!

Jim

Thanks Jim, I will do that. It would be a real bummer if it is around
the bottom drain. Oh, well. :-)

On Jun 17, 8:45 pm, Phyllis and Jim wrote:
I hope you can find the leak. Let it go down to where the descent
stops. Add about 1/4" and begin dropping milk around the edge. You
should see the milk be pulled through the liner where a leak is. It
may not be the only one. May you find the leak at the top of your
area!

Jim

Still going down slowly, today Jim. So far it has dropped 5 inches
(1036 gallons) and the stock tank has lost only 3/4 of an inch. So, I
know there is a leak somewhere. It may be next week sometimes before
it stops dropping as this one seems to be a really slow (but not THAT
slow) of a leak. 5 inches in 4 days - not good. I guess this is
where patience will pay off in the long run. LOL.

In the mean time, anyone out there with a used non-leaking 31' X 36'
EPDM or PVC liner they would like to sell or pawn off??? :-)
W. Dale

On Jun 17, 8:45 pm, Phyllis and Jim wrote:
I hope you can find the leak. Let it go down to where the descent
stops. Add about 1/4" and begin dropping milk around the edge. You
should see the milk be pulled through the liner where a leak is. It
may not be the only one. May you find the leak at the top of your
area!

Jim

June 21. Water level is still descending but much slower. My
neighbor, two doors down, says he is loosing LOTS of water to the wind
and low humidity. He thinks I do not have a leak since I have lost
less water over the same period of time as he has. I wonder?
So far I am down about 7 inches over a 6 day period. Humidity to day
is 50% and has been in the teens most of the week except for the past
few days when we had T-storms. The level is dropping so slowly that I
wonder now about the "leak". At the rate it is going, it may take
weeks for the level to stop dropping and then again, *sigh*.
The level in the stock tank is down almost 1 inch now. So, if I use
that as a comparison, there MUST (so it would seem) be a leak in the
pond.
What do you all think?
Have a great weekend!
W. Dale

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:01:05 EDT, W Dale wrote:

June 21. Water level is still descending but much slower. My
neighbor, two doors down, says he is loosing LOTS of water to the wind
and low humidity. He thinks I do not have a leak since I have lost
less water over the same period of time as he has. I wonder?
So far I am down about 7 inches over a 6 day period. Humidity to day
is 50% and has been in the teens most of the week except for the past
few days when we had T-storms. The level is dropping so slowly that I
wonder now about the "leak". At the rate it is going, it may take
weeks for the level to stop dropping and then again, *sigh*.
The level in the stock tank is down almost 1 inch now. So, if I use
that as a comparison, there MUST (so it would seem) be a leak in the
pond.
What do you all think?
Have a great weekend!
W. Dale

I think there is a leak in your pond and.... your neighbor's pond. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Seven to one is a pretty steep contrast between the pond and the stock
tank. I am interested that your neighbor has lost more than 7"! That
would cause me to rethink my loss rate...or his. Does the pond have a
stream or falls to increase the evaporation rate? Have you noted
where the change in rate happened? It might be interesting to check
for milk-pull-through at that level.

Jim

On Jun 22, 3:36 pm, Phyllis and Jim wrote:
Seven to one is a pretty steep contrast between the pond and the stock
tank. I am interested that your neighbor has lost more than 7"! That
would cause me to rethink my loss rate...or his. Does the pond have a
stream or falls to increase the evaporation rate? Have you noted
where the change in rate happened? It might be interesting to check
for milk-pull-through at that level.

Jim

I turned off the waterfall (to decrease evaporation rate as you
mentioned) to see what would happen. It still went down but very very
slowly. That the stock tank has still lost less than 2 inches in 8
days, cause me decide to look for the leak. I think I may have found
them in a couple of patches that were seeping EVER so slowly but
enough to get my attention. I am using Beckett's patch instead of the
stuff that came with the BTL liner as that patch material is not
keeping the water in as I think it should. I hope to complete the
repairs this afternoon and begin refilling the pond. Humidity today
is 11%.

W. Dale