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Old 01-05-2008, 12:13 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

I'm thinking it's less likely to be flukes because of the large
physical change to the eye. I think flukes would cause less visible
issues. Jo Ann explained to me that brain flukes, while somewhat rare,
are untreatable and can be fatal. I think the issue is that they're in
the brain and therefore the prazi won't get there like it would get to
the gills. Just guessing, but that's my reasoning. She said that if
you see one in the globe of the eye, it's already dead. I've decided
to be blindly optimistic and say it isn't a brain fluke problem, since
if it is, I can't do anything about it except wait and watch to see if
the fish dies.

If I can bring myself to clip and drain this "cover" (and overcome the
fear of making things worse), should I resume antibacterial dips
afterwards or put anything in the water? Or will the salt just help it
along? And just a small cut, right, or remove a lot of it? When you
have a chance, could you ask your Koi club if they think this a
reasonable/safe approach?

Thanks,

Dave

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Old 01-05-2008, 04:52 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

never ever use Pranzi, it is toxic to fish. External flukes can be killed with the
10 second peroxide dip
Jo Ann's PEROXIDE DIP for Goldfish
1 part 3% peroxide (like in drug store)
9 parts water
dip for 10 SECONDS ONLY
USES:
this kills flukes, both gyros and dacs
it does not kill much of anything else

nothing kills brain flukes. by the time the fluke gets into the eye the fluke is
dead. Ingrid

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:42:28 EDT, Pond Addict wrote:
Since the salt level I'm using won't
kill flukes, should I be getting some Prazi or something? Just to rule
out or exterminate the flukes if they are there?

Has anyone had experience with brain flukes and/or are there images
somewhere that I could compare?

Thanks,

Dave


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Old 01-05-2008, 04:52 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

lower your salt to 0.1% and I think the thick slime coat may disappear and the thick
covering over the eye too. I wouldnt clip or cut anything right now. Ingrid

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:13:58 EDT, Pond Addict wrote:
If I can bring myself to clip and drain this "cover" (and overcome the
fear of making things worse), should I resume antibacterial dips
afterwards or put anything in the water? Or will the salt just help it
along? And just a small cut, right, or remove a lot of it? When you
have a chance, could you ask your Koi club if they think this a
reasonable/safe approach?

Thanks,

Dave


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Old 01-05-2008, 04:54 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

"neomycin /neo·my·cin/ (-mi´sin) a broad-spectrum aminoglycoside an
tibiotic produced
by Streptomyces fradiae, effective against a wide range of gram-negative
bacilli and
some gram-positive bacteria; used as the sulfate salt."

"An aminoglycoside is a molecule composed of a sugar group and an amino g
roup.[1]
Several aminoglycosides function as antibiotics that are effective agains
t certain
types of bacteria. They include amikacin, gentamicin, kanamycin, neomycin
,
netilmicin, paromomycin, rhodostreptomycin[2], streptomycin, tobramycin,
and
apramycin."

"Aminoglycosides work by binding to the bacterial 30S ribosomal subunit (
some work by
binding to the 50S subunit), inhibiting the translocation of the peptidyl
-tRNA from
the A-site to the P-site and also causing misreading of mRNA, leaving the
bacterium
unable to synthesize proteins vital to its growth."

2-amino-2-hydroxymethyl-1,3-propanediol is "Tris" is a buffer that I hav
e used for
DNA and protein gels, it keeps the pH up, that is higher than 7.0.

The other ingredient is Disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetate dihydrate or
EDTA, the
stuff put in vials used for taking blood samples since it prevents clotti
ng by
binding the calcium needed in the clotting pathway.
" * EDTA is used in chelation therapy for acute hypercalcemia, mercury
poisoning
and lead poisoning[7].
* Used as anticoagulant for blood samples
* In veterinary ophthalmology EDTA may be used as an anticollagenase
to prevent
the worsening of corneal ulcers in animals."

"Potentiating effect of EDTA-Tris on the activity of antibiotics against
resistant
bacteria associated with otitis, dermatitis and cystitis."
http://www.dermapet.com/triz_chart.html

mix your own
TrizEDTA Crystals (16oz) on ebay.... $16.99 plus shipping
Neomycin 325 Soluble Powder on ebay... US $4.60 plus shipping
of course gentamicin, kanamycin should also work.

or, use the flush first, the gel second
DermaPet TrizEDTA Aqueous Flush for Dogs and Cats 16oz on ebay ...... $14
..99 + ship
Neomycin 2oz - gel tek for aquatic use on ebay.... $4.49 + ship

Tricide Neo - 22 grams (0.773 ounce) on ebay $19.30 plus ship

Ingrid

.... high salt will trash the fins.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:31:18 EDT, Pond Addict
m wrote:
Here's a pretty good link about Tricide-Neo. It's expensive, but I
have to say it works as well as they say.
http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/Pr...TricideNeo.htm

My package says, "when added to 5 gallons of distilled water, solution
contains:
8mM USP Disodium ethylenediaminetetraacetate dihydrate,20 mM USP 2-
Amino-2-hydroxymethyl-1,3-propanediol, and 9.5 gm USP Neomycin
Sulfate."

I have no idea what any of that means. They say it punches holes in
bacteria so that the solution's antibiotics flood them.

You can find other places that sell it as well if you Google, but for
sure, it's damn expensive. It comes as a foil envelope of powder that
you mix with distilled water. It's available for a 1 gallon and 5
gallon mix. I got the 5 gallon size because I didn't know about
dipping fish in plastic bags when I ordered.


Slight change of subject but is there anything I can do to help my two
fish with damaged fins heal better? They're in .3% salted 78°F water
as well. Is time the only healer for them?

Dave


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Old 01-05-2008, 04:54 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:13:58 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

If I can bring myself to clip and drain this "cover" (and overcome the
fear of making things worse), should I resume antibacterial dips
afterwards or put anything in the water? Or will the salt just help it
along? And just a small cut, right, or remove a lot of it? When you
have a chance, could you ask your Koi club if they think this a
reasonable/safe approach? Dave


I've dropped a message into the KHAs (Koi Health Advisors) message board of
the AKCA (Associated Koi Clubs of America), just to clarify not my koi
club. I'll let you know when I get an answer. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us



  #66   Report Post  
Old 01-05-2008, 07:37 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

I think I see it clearing up actually so I may let it sit a while
longer. What looks like is happening is that the whole "bubble" is has
a shorter diameter but still sticks out just as much, so the dotted
part around the black part of the eye is now visible. In other words,
it *may* be slowly clearing/draining. I can definitely see more of the
eye underneath now, so my guess is that I should keep things as they
are. It Also seems more likely that this is the original eye cover,
just thicker and yellower.

never ever use Pranzi, it is toxic to fish.


Praziquantel? It is? Everything I see online says things like this:

"Because it's gentle, Praziquantel is, and always has been, the
"treatment of choice" for Flukes (trematodes) in fish. Praziquantel
does not require water changes, praziquantel is harmless to fish of
*all* species including Discus, Koi and goldfish fry, and is non toxic
to plants, and; (unlike Formalin), praziquantel has no negative filter
impact."

http://www.fishdoc.net/articles/deta...p?articleId=25

Are you saying it's toxic in the recommended dosages? Do you have data
that contradicts the vast majority of information out there? (I'm not
saying you don't, I'm just trying to get better informed about all
this.)

lower your salt to 0.1% and I think the thick slime coat may disappear and the thick

covering over the eye too.

This fish doesn't have a thick slime coat, though. Just this eye
anomaly. The slime coat seems quite normal.

... high salt will trash the fins.


I've heard different thoughts about this lately, but I'm surprised
that .3% is considered high by some people and completely acceptable
by others. There must be some data to back up one camp or the other.
I'm surprised it's so recommended if there's a problem with it. A
search on "koi .3% salt" shows lots of support. I've even seen
recommendations of in-pond .5% to kill parasites. I was actually
planning on backing the salt off to .2% starting today to start
bringing it back in line with pond conditions, but until recently I
hadn't heard anyone saying that .3% was considered excessively high,
and the fish seem to flourish in it.

Also, the fins look fine. I'm pretty sure that the one with the tear
snagged on the net or something during the trip to the Tricide-Neo
dip. No other fins on that fish are torn, and the other two
hospitalized fish with damaged fins are actually healing now. I
noticed lots of new tail fin growth last night. They're all at .3%.

Dave

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Old 02-05-2008, 05:03 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

On Thu, 1 May 2008 10:52:07 EDT, wrote:

never ever use Pranzi, it is toxic to fish.


Dave didn't type Pranzi, he typed:
kill flukes, should I be getting some Prazi or something?


Prazi is not toxic to fish:
http://www.pondcrisis.com/a_praziquantel.html in fact it is one of the more
mild anti-parasite treatments, doesn't affect the bio-filter or anything,
other than flukes in the pond. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 02-05-2008, 05:04 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

On Thu, 1 May 2008 13:37:54 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

I think I see it clearing up actually so I may let it sit a while
longer.


It was recommended by the KHA board to leave it alone, as you've already
deducted. ;-)

never ever use Pranzi, it is toxic to fish.


Praziquantel? It is? Everything I see online says things like this:


I thought Ingrid had mis-read, but when I googled the word she typed
"Pranzi" I couldn't find anything that matched as a fish med. So I don't
know what she's talking about regarding Prazi. I've had very good results
with this pesticide, and never a problem, nor have I heard any about any
problems.

I've heard different thoughts about this lately, but I'm surprised
that .3% is considered high by some people and completely acceptable
by others.


0.3% has never trashed fins at my house, nor is it consider high.

Also, the fins look fine. I'm pretty sure that the one with the tear
snagged on the net or something during the trip to the Tricide-Neo
dip.


What kind of net are you using? The best investment net wise I made for my
large fish was a koi sock. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

  #69   Report Post  
Old 02-05-2008, 04:30 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

What kind of net are you using?

Well, this was another case of me trying to do too much. I had been
getting the fish to the dip by transporting it in a bucket of its tank
water to the "dipping station" (or basement shower as everyone else
here calls it). Since I didn't know about plastic bag dipping, I had
ordered the 5 gal. Tricide-Neo mix, and I had that mixed up in a
sealable bucket down there. I took the fish down and moved it across
and back, rinsing the fish with distilled water to and from the dip. I
did that all with my (gloved) hands for the first two dips and
everything was fine. But, I thought it would be less rough on the fish
to use a net. The only net I could find that would fit in the bucket
was a 10"x7" aquarium net. Definitely not a koi sock, and it has
seams. When I went to put the fish in the dip the 3rd time, I used
that, and it had a little trouble getting out of it. I suspect that
the fin got torn there, probably snagging on a seam. I'm not positive,
but that would make sense. In hindsight, it was a lot less rough just
handling the fish.

As far as the eye goes, I'm definitely seeing big improvements now,
which I'm thrilled about. The very outer part of the eye is no longer
under the protruding "bubble" (meaning the bubble is shrinking), and I
can easily see the black part through the bubble and the fish is
moving it around, looking. There's still a whole lot left to clear (it
still juts out about 1/4"), but I think it's definitely improving and
functional.

Dave


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Old 03-05-2008, 02:56 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

moving it around, looking. There's still a whole lot left to clear (it
still juts out about 1/4"), but I think it's definitely improving and
functional.
Dave


That is really good news Dave, you've done well, considering your first
time. You acted quickly on advice and saved the day. My first 2 I waited
too long, died. The next one I treated sooner and saved. Now I realize if
it looks somewhat bad pond side, it usually is even worst out of the water.
Thus I'd make the decision much quicker if faced with a problem today.
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us



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Old 03-05-2008, 05:13 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

It's definitely been a welcome learning experience. I'm so grateful
for all of the help and advice on this. I would have been completely
lost without it, and I'm sure the fish would have died long ago, given
my previous(!) track record of "saving" these guys.

I guess the biggest lesson I've learned is to not put the care off,
and then pace the treatment as not to overwhelm/stress out the fish.

Oh, and avoid using crappy nets...

I'll post some updated pictures later this weekend. The bottom of the
black part of the eye is now slightly outside of the bubble (meaning
that bubble-shrink continues). The side wound is looking very good as
well.

Dave

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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

oh well that recommendation is by Koivorkian AND it is a "buy" site. Ingrid

On Thu, 1 May 2008 23:03:46 EDT, ~ jan wrote:
Prazi is not toxic to fish:
http://www.pondcrisis.com/a_praziquantel.html in fact it is one of the more
mild anti-parasite treatments, doesn't affect the bio-filter or anything,
other than flukes in the pond. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us


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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

I dont rely on those who sell medications for recommendations.

I dont rely on those who 1. dont rely on raising fish for a living or 2. treating
fish for a living to recommend medications.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA041 Drs. Ruth Ellen Klinger and Ruth Francis Floyd are
experts. They dont recommend prazi for external flukes.

"WHITE OR YELLOW GRUB
According to Noga, they are caused by Digenean trematode infections (Digenean fluke
infection, metacercarial infection, black spot, white grub, yellow grub). There are
around 1700 species that infect fish. uncommon in cultured fish. Most damage is
when cercaria migrate from gut to form cysts. They are more unsightly than harmfull
when grubs are seen just under the surface of the skin. However, when they erupt,
they can cause bleeding and the fish can die from blood loss if there are a lot of
them erupting. Also the exit hole can get infected. Treatment: keep infect birds or
mammals away from ponds, disinfect and quarantine, kill off the moluscs (snails),
treat with praziquantel bath. " from my website, recommendation of Jo Ann Burke.

Ruth Francis Floyd does not recommend prazi for flukes. I would think if it was
effective and safe she would. Ingrid

On Thu, 1 May 2008 13:37:54 EDT, Pond Addict wrote:
Praziquantel? It is? Everything I see online says things like this:


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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

it may be a pH thing, it may be a "hardness" thing. there is some reason people like
Floyd and Jo Ann dont recommend it. Ingrid

On Thu, 1 May 2008 23:04:07 EDT, ~ jan wrote:
I thought Ingrid had mis-read, but when I googled the word she typed
"Pranzi" I couldn't find anything that matched as a fish med. So I don't
know what she's talking about regarding Prazi. I've had very good results
with this pesticide, and never a problem, nor have I heard any about any
problems.


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Default URGENT - Another sick fish

On Sat, 3 May 2008 13:24:45 EDT, wrote:

oh well that recommendation is by Koivorkian AND it is a "buy" site. Ingrid


I heard a rumor that DEJ isn't treating fish anymore, as in having them
brought into his practice. Anyone have any other news on that? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds:
www.jjspond.us

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