On Sat, 3 May 2008 13:24:47 EDT, wrote:

I dont rely on those who sell medications for recommendations.

Neither would I, but the explanation was valid regardless.

I dont rely on those who 1. dont rely on raising fish for a living or 2. treating
fish for a living to recommend medications.

Me either. The KHA program is overseen by fish vets and recommendations are
carefully overseen. If you're familiar with the Master Gardener program and
how they protect themselves against liability, very similar.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA041 Drs. Ruth Ellen Klinger and Ruth Francis Floyd are
experts. They dont recommend prazi for external flukes.

All I found at above website:
Praziquantel at 2 -- 10 mg/L for 1 to 3 hours in a bath is effective in
treating adult cestode infections in ornamental fish. At this time, there
is no treatment that can be used for food fish. Also, there is no
successful treatment for plerocercoids. Ponds can be disinfected to
eradicate the intermediate host, the copepod.

Nothing more could I find doing a search for prazi.

"WHITE OR YELLOW GRUB
According to Noga, they are caused by Digenean trematode infections (Digenean fluke
infection, metacercarial infection, black spot, white grub, yellow grub). There are
around 1700 species that infect fish. uncommon in cultured fish. Most damage is
when cercaria migrate from gut to form cysts. They are more unsightly than harmfull
when grubs are seen just under the surface of the skin. However, when they erupt,
they can cause bleeding and the fish can die from blood loss if there are a lot of
them erupting. Also the exit hole can get infected. Treatment: keep infect birds or
mammals away from ponds, disinfect and quarantine, kill off the moluscs (snails),
treat with praziquantel bath. " from my website, recommendation of Jo Ann Burke.

Ruth Francis Floyd does not recommend prazi for flukes. I would think if it was
effective and safe she would. Ingrid

Not everyone keeps up on the latest data apparently. Could be why she's not
one of the vets on the KHA team (that's just a guess on my part as I didn't
ask about her on the board)? Most fish vets are looking at food fish, where
the money is for most of them, and that was what I saw as a
non-recommendation on the site, not to treat food fish. So Dave don't being
eating that fish. ;-)

The data coming in on fish meds has jumped almost like human meds did at
one time. The difference in the last 5-10 years of what is available is
hard to keep up with, imho. Why I use the KHA bulletin board to keep me
up-to-date. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Sat, 3 May 2008 13:24:55 EDT, wrote:

it may be a pH thing, it may be a "hardness" thing. there is some reason people like
Floyd and Jo Ann dont recommend it. Ingrid

Could be, but something shouldn't be discarded just because of
"environmental" reasons or human error. Especially when so many others have
found it to work quite well.

Perhaps you can find out why they don't recommend it rather than guessing.
Perhaps they didn't find it effective? Perhaps because of mixing problems?
They've since found that by mixing the powdered med with formalin it goes
into solution much better, and it doesn't take that much formalin.

And..... this year they've come out with a liquid version. I plan to try
that this fall, as I always do a treatment before winter, since my pond is
open to pass overs by poo dropping birds. :-{ ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Ingrid, none of what you've posted, including the info I see at that
web site
backs up this statement:

never ever use Pranzi, it is toxic to fish.
... Ingrid

If you've seen info that Praziquantel is actually toxic to fish, I'd
love to see that.
Otherwise, it seems like a wild claim to me, especially when
Praziquantel is
recommended as a treatment on the expert site you listed. So far,
everything
I've read convinces me that it's safe to use if the need arises and
nothing even
hints that it may be toxic to fish in typical use.

that was what I saw as a non-recommendation on the site,
not to treat food fish. So Dave don't being eating that fish. ;-)
... ~ jan

Yeah, I had to break the "no eating the fish" news to my family after
reading
the same warning on the Tricide-Neo packet.

No, no...

Dave

adult cestodes are internal not external parasites. it is like worms in dogs. Ingrid

On Sat, 3 May 2008 19:35:27 EDT, ~ jan wrote:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA041 Drs. Ruth Ellen Klinger and Ruth Francis Floyd are
experts. They dont recommend prazi for external flukes.
All I found at above website:
Praziquantel at 2 -- 10 mg/L for 1 to 3 hours in a bath is effective in
treating adult cestode infections

On Sun, 4 May 2008 11:04:25 EDT, wrote:

adult cestodes are internal not external parasites. it is like worms in dogs. Ingrid


http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA041 Drs. Ruth Ellen Klinger and Ruth Francis Floyd are
experts. They dont recommend prazi for external flukes.

On Sat, 3 May 2008 19:35:27 EDT, ~ jan wrote:
All I found at above website:
Praziquantel at 2 -- 10 mg/L for 1 to 3 hours in a bath is effective in
treating adult cestode infections

And prazi treats the internal as well as the external. ???? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

I posted new images of the fish. I think it's healing well:

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html

The eye is so much better. I think the fish is pretty well out of the
woods now.

How long does it take for fish like these to grow scales back? I'm
trying to figure out when I should return it to the pond.

I'll wait until the eye finishes clearing and the side wound is
basically healed (I see it shrinking), but it seems like scales might
take months to return. Given the large number of scales that are
missing, will it be ok to return the fish without those? I'd like to
get the fish back in the pond as soon as it's ready for that.

Dave

I've posted some more pictures of this fish at:

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html
(See the 5/22/08 images.)

Unfortunately, I can't take any more pictures because my office
roommate has gone...


....back to the pond!

After a month in my tank, an initial salt dip, wound cleaning, 3
treatments of Tricide-Neo, daily(!) water changes, many filter
cleanings, salt level maintenance, and a whole lot of attention to
every little detail I could think of, the fish is now healthy enough
that I felt she could go back to the pond. During her stay, I made a
new fish-safe bottom drain cover that's been working great, and the
pond is now clearer than it's ever been. It will be a great place for
the fish to continue healing.

So, the final details: The torn fin fused back together. The eye
cleared and the bubble went away (when it started going away, 90% of
it happened in about 4 days). The main wound is still there, but it's
clean, it's shrinking and healing well, and there are new layers of
skin covering it. At this point I believe that the fish will be best
off healing on its own in the pond rather than in my 45 gallon tank.

I really want to thank everyone again, and especially Jan, for all the
help with this. I've learned so much during this adventure.

For the first week, I'd wake up each day and be thrilled that the fish
was still alive. To see its health progress over the weeks and finally
be returning it to the pond (in so much better shape) is a GREAT
feeling.

: D

Thanks.

Dave

On Thu, 22 May 2008 23:01:59 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

I've posted some more pictures of this fish at:

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html
(See the 5/22/08 images.)


Sending good vibes that fish continues to do well. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us