Hi everybody!

I've been a keen freshwater aquarist for over a decade but I'm totally
new to outdoor ponds and I'm not sure whether the pond that our
landscape gardner is currently giving the finishing touches to is
actually suitable for fish.. a few words of wisdom from the experts in
this group would help me decide whether it's worth getting my hopes
up..

I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the
literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a
description of the pond:

Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet)

Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet)

It is built with a liner on top of a generous layer of sand and the
sides are made up of a concrete block wall.

The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for
our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface.

The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter
of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit.

They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater
green lights.

A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never
planned as a Koi pond..

1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish?

The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and
I imagine that this will help with the freezing. I also wouldn't mind
heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, but it might yet be
too shallow for a Koi and/or winter. I live in Luxembourg between
Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but
temperature do occasionally drop under -10C.

2) metal grid/ child safety

Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will
it stress the fish?

3) lighting during the night?

I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be,
but is this a problem for Koi?

I'd appreciate your thoughts...

Best regards,

Frank

wrote:

Hi everybody!

I've been a keen freshwater aquarist for over a decade but I'm totally
new to outdoor ponds and I'm not sure whether the pond that our
landscape gardner is currently giving the finishing touches to is
actually suitable for fish.. a few words of wisdom from the experts in
this group would help me decide whether it's worth getting my hopes
up..

I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the
literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a
description of the pond:

Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet)

Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet)

It is built with a liner on top of a generous layer of sand and the
sides are made up of a concrete block wall.

The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for
our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface.

The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter
of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit.

They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater
green lights.

A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never
planned as a Koi pond..

1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish?
Definitely not deep enough for Koi. You could keep gold fish though.

The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and
I imagine that this will help with the freezing. I also wouldn't mind
heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, but it might yet be
too shallow for a Koi and/or winter. I live in Luxembourg between
Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but
temperature do occasionally drop under -10C.

2) metal grid/ child safety

Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will
it stress the fish?
Can you mount the grid above the water? Most fish pellets float. This makes
it easier to remove uneaten food and avoid contaminating the water

3) lighting during the night?

I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be,
but is this a problem for Koi?
My fish don't seem bothered by lighting, although I only have it on when I
am there to watch. Don't want to provide predators with an advantage!



If the water won't freeze all the way to the bottom you should be okay, as
long as you can keep a whole open through the ice.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

Others will have more useful advice than I about the fish-keeping
part, but I just wanted to mention something about this:

The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for
our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface.

Children (anyone for that matter) can drown in less than 2" of water.
This grid won't make the pond safe for your child. If they crawl out
there or slip and end up face down, you have to immediately remedy the
situation. Because of that, you need to be supervising the child
around the pond anyway, and therefore I think the grid is unnecessary.
If possible, it would be better replaced by a gate or locked area that
the child can't get past on their own.

Dave

wrote:

I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the
literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a
description of the pond:

Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet)

Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet)

It's a bit shallow for koi, but people have kept them in worse...

The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter
of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit.

If you _don't_ have koi, the UV (and filter) is pretty pointless - a water
garden with only plants will stay clear on its own without

They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater
green lights.

A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never
planned as a Koi pond..

1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish?

It's deep enough in most places to keep goldfish.

The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and
I imagine that this will help with the freezing.

That's not really "obvious". One big problem with running a waterfall in
winter is ice damming. It's possible for ice to build up in such a way as
to redirect water flow out of the pond. If that can happen, you're much
better off to turn off the waterfall.

I also wouldn't mind
heating part of the pond with an immersion heater,

That will cost you a fortune.

but it might yet be too shallow for a Koi and/or winter.
I live in Luxembourg between
Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but
temperature do occasionally drop under -10C.

Not really. It would be a good idea to insulate those concrete walls,
between the concrete and the liner, with at least 3" of foam insulation,
but then conductance from the soil beneath the pond should keep it from
freezing solid.

2) metal grid/ child safety

Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will
it stress the fish?

Many people have done this, it shouldn't be a problem. They're not strictly
surface feeders, but they will come to the surface if food's there. They
can suck pretty well :-) If the grid is only an inch below water surface
they won't have trouble. What size is the grid? If the spacing is more
than 3", they probably won't even notice it.

3) lighting during the night?

I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be,
but is this a problem for Koi?

No idea, but you'd want a switch anyway, wouldn't you? There's no point
leaving the lights on if nobody is there to see, unless you're thinking of
it as a safety feature (being able to _see_ if your child's in the pond -
in which case motion detector external lights are probably more use).
--
derek

On May 5, 6:05 pm, San Diego Joe wrote:
wrote:

1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish?

Definitely not deep enough for Koi. You could keep gold fish though.


Darn.. there go my Koi owning dreams :-(

Goldfish should be okay.. not really my thing, but might be more
entertaining than nothing at all..

Can you mount the grid above the water? Most fish pellets float. This make
s
it easier to remove uneaten food and avoid contaminating the water

I guess with Goldfish I could just feed them standard sinking goldfish
food :-(

3) lighting during the night?

I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be,
but is this a problem for Koi?

My fish don't seem bothered by lighting, although I only have it on when I

am there to watch. Don't want to provide predators with an advantage!

It would be on till around midnight every night, but Goldfish are
tough little critters.


If the water won't freeze all the way to the bottom you should be okay, as

long as you can keep a whole open through the ice.

Thanks for your help.

Best regards,

Frank

San Diego Joe wrote:


wrote:

Hi everybody!

I've been a keen freshwater aquarist for over a decade but I'm totally
new to outdoor ponds and I'm not sure whether the pond that our
landscape gardner is currently giving the finishing touches to is
actually suitable for fish.. a few words of wisdom from the experts in
this group would help me decide whether it's worth getting my hopes
up..

I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the
literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a
description of the pond:

Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet)

Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet)

It is built with a liner on top of a generous layer of sand and the
sides are made up of a concrete block wall.

The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for
our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface.

The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter
of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit.

They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater
green lights.

A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never
planned as a Koi pond..

1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish?
Definitely not deep enough for Koi. You could keep gold fish though.
The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and
I imagine that this will help with the freezing. I also wouldn't mind
heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, but it might yet be
too shallow for a Koi and/or winter. I live in Luxembourg between
Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but
temperature do occasionally drop under -10C.

2) metal grid/ child safety

Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will
it stress the fish?
Can you mount the grid above the water? Most fish pellets float. This makes
it easier to remove uneaten food and avoid contaminating the water
3) lighting during the night?

I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be,
but is this a problem for Koi?
My fish don't seem bothered by lighting, although I only have it on when I
am there to watch. Don't want to provide predators with an advantage!

If the water won't freeze all the way to the bottom you should be okay, as
long as you can keep a whole open through the ice.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.


Perhaps a radical idea- Could you hinge the grid (either on one side or
both sides to open in the middle)? This would allow you easy access to
the pond for cleaning, feeding, and netting. or any other means to
easily move a section out of the way like a trap door.

Even more radical- Could you use the grid itself for heating? Perhaps
with a low voltage source.

You didn't mention a bottom drain or a skimmer. Both seem to be high on
koi ponders' lists of things I SHOULD have done.

Chip

Chip wrote:

Perhaps a radical idea- Could you hinge the grid (either on one side or
both sides to open in the middle)?

I _hope_ that's not radical - I just assumed it would be the case. It's
really necessary that the grid be easily removable.

Even more radical- Could you use the grid itself for heating? Perhaps
with a low voltage source.

Ack! This was supposed to be a safety feature :-) Really, low voltage
means either low power or high current - the first restricts your heating
ability and the latter means huge cables (or a transformer at the pond).
Then you have the fact that your heating source would be at the surface of
the pond - and radiating most of its heat into the atmosphere.
--
derek

On May 5, 7:58 pm, Pond Addict wrote:

Children (anyone for that matter) can drown in less than 2" of water.
This grid won't make the pond safe for your child. If they crawl out
there or slip and end up face down, you have to immediately remedy the
situation. Because of that, you need to be supervising the child
around the pond anyway, and therefore I think the grid is unnecessary.
If possible, it would be better replaced by a gate or locked area that
the child can't get past on their own.

In many of these things I'm pretty much dependent on what my landscape
gardner has planned; he's already got the materials, but hasn't
finished the installation yet. I still have no idea what his safety
grid really looks like (fine meshed or huge gaps? sturdy enough?).

As I understand it the grid will be just below the water surface at
around 1 cm depth (1/2"), so should be fairly effective as a safety
device. We don't intend to let our toddler run wild in the garden
while we are going for a snooze, so he won't be unsupervised but even
for a 2 years old there is still a difference between stepping on the
grid (and being scolded) and descending into the big blue ;-)

On May 5, 7:59 pm, Derek Broughton wrote:
wrote:
It's a bit shallow for koi, but people have kept them in worse...

So, it's not a definite no-no, just a "shouldn't".

If you _don't_ have koi, the UV (and filter) is pretty pointless - a water

garden with only plants will stay clear on its own without

As I said I'm no expert at ponds and just let the landscape gardner do
his thing. I didn't think of doing very much with the pond at first,
but when I saw all that filter equipment on the detailed plans, I
thought.. "hhmm.. maybe I could keep fish in there". It would save me
getting that 2000L Discus aquarium..

They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater
green lights.

It's deep enough in most places to keep goldfish.

Might start with that and then see how much the pond actually freezes
over in the winter. The winter outside is a big unknown for me. My
fish are usually nice and warm inside.

That's not really "obvious". One big problem with running a waterfall i
n
winter is ice damming. It's possible for ice to build up in such a way
as
to redirect water flow out of the pond. If that can happen, you're much

better off to turn off the waterfall.

Hhmm.. I think I'll have to see how it all works out this winter.

I also wouldn't mind
heating part of the pond with an immersion heater,

That will cost you a fortune.

I've read that this is fairly commonly done, just to keep an "air
hole" open during the winter. I've seen Jaeger do some pond heaters
that are of similar power to those used in a biggish tropical tank.

Not really. It would be a good idea to insulate those concrete walls,
between the concrete and the liner, with at least 3" of foam insulation,
but then conductance from the soil beneath the pond should keep it from
freezing solid.

Too late..

Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will
it stress the fish?

Many people have done this, it shouldn't be a problem. They're not stri
ctly
surface feeders, but they will come to the surface if food's there. The
y
can suck pretty well :-) If the grid is only an inch below water surface
they won't have trouble. What size is the grid? If the spacing is mo
re
than 3", they probably won't even notice it.

Haven't see it yet..

3) lighting during the night?

No idea, but you'd want a switch anyway, wouldn't you? There's no point

leaving the lights on if nobody is there to see, unless you're thinking of

it as a safety feature (being able to _see_ if your child's in the pond -
in which case motion detector external lights are probably more use).

It's actually going to be on one of those fancy light level detectors
and timed to switch off at midnight.. LEDs so it shouldn't consume too
much electricity. The pond is actually quite a feature for the lounge
(!?) as one of the walls is completely built in glass.. thus the fancy
lighting at night.

My son should long be in bed before the lights come on and no way is
going in the garden in the dark :-)

On May 5, 8:00 pm, Chip wrote:
San Diego Joe wrote:

wrote:

Hi everybody!

I've been a keen freshwater aquarist for over a decade but I'm totally
new to outdoor ponds and I'm not sure whether the pond that our
landscape gardner is currently giving the finishing touches to is
actually suitable for fish.. a few words of wisdom from the experts in
this group would help me decide whether it's worth getting my hopes
up..

I'm interested in keeping Koi, but even a cursory glance over the
literature is giving me second thoughts about a few issues. Here's a
description of the pond:

Size: about 8 x 8m (24x24 feet)

Depth: around 50 cm ( 2 feet)

It is built with a liner on top of a generous layer of sand and the
sides are made up of a concrete block wall.

The whole thing will be covered by a metal grid to make it safe for
our baby. This should be placed an inch or so BELOW the water surface.

The gardner has already installed a fairly hefty multi-chamber filter
of (very) approximately 300L (60 gallon?) and an ultra-violet unit.

They've also currently planned a series of fairly powerful underwater
green lights.

A lot of things give me concerns there and this was clearly never
planned as a Koi pond..

1) depth: is it at all deep enough to keep koi or any other fish?
Definitely not deep enough for Koi. You could keep gold fish though.
The filter will obviously be kept running during the winter months and
I imagine that this will help with the freezing. I also wouldn't mind
heating part of the pond with an immersion heater, but it might yet be
too shallow for a Koi and/or winter. I live in Luxembourg between
Germany and France, so we don't have Scandinavian winters but
temperature do occasionally drop under -10C.

2) metal grid/ child safety

Are Koi surface feeders? would I be able to feed them properly? will
it stress the fish?
Can you mount the grid above the water? Most fish pellets float. This ma
kes
it easier to remove uneaten food and avoid contaminating the water
3) lighting during the night?

I'm not sure yet how strong this lighting will really turn out to be,
but is this a problem for Koi?
My fish don't seem bothered by lighting, although I only have it on when
I
am there to watch. Don't want to provide predators with an advantage!

If the water won't freeze all the way to the bottom you should be okay,
as
long as you can keep a whole open through the ice.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

Perhaps a radical idea- Could you hinge the grid (either on one side or
both sides to open in the middle)? This would allow you easy access to
the pond for cleaning, feeding, and netting. or any other means to
easily move a section out of the way like a trap door.

Too late. Gardner's got the stuff already, just haven't seen it yet..

Even more radical- Could you use the grid itself for heating? Perhaps
with a low voltage source.

Wow. Those are some neat ideas but I don't think I'll try my hand at
electricity + water until I'm a bit of pro :-)

You didn't mention a bottom drain or a skimmer. Both seem to be high on

koi ponders' lists of things I SHOULD have done.

Yes, I've seen the stuff on the bottom drain and/or skimmer, but I'm
afraid the liner's in already.

I think next time I'll be better prepared :-) This time over, I just
got the idea of keeping fish in the pond when I saw that the gardner
had already put a decent filter in.. so why not?

IMO, the best way to keep a hole in the ice is air.

I'm in zone 4/5 and my pond gets 10" of ice, easy. With an outdoor air
pump and and air stones I'm able to keep two 1.5' holes open all
winter, and it's cheap.

Dave

wrote:

On May 5, 7:59 pm, Derek Broughton wrote:
wrote:
It's a bit shallow for koi, but people have kept them in worse...

So, it's not a definite no-no, just a "shouldn't".

You have to imagine how large koi get. They easily reach two feet in length.
I've seen them in a foot of water, but I felt very sad for the fish. Imagine
you are 6 feet tall and live in a room 6'-2" high.

SNIP

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

On Mon, 5 May 2008 17:21:24 EDT, wrote:

Yes, I've seen the stuff on the bottom drain and/or skimmer, but I'm
afraid the liner's in already.

There are over the side bottom drains & skimmers.... for the future, see my
website what we did the following year.

Just don't let your gardener line it with rocks. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Derek Broughton wrote:

Chip wrote:

Perhaps a radical idea- Could you hinge the grid (either on one side or
both sides to open in the middle)?

I _hope_ that's not radical - I just assumed it would be the case. It's
really necessary that the grid be easily removable.

Even more radical- Could you use the grid itself for heating? Perhaps
with a low voltage source.

Ack! This was supposed to be a safety feature :-) Really, low voltage
means either low power or high current - the first restricts your heating
ability and the latter means huge cables (or a transformer at the pond).
Then you have the fact that your heating source would be at the surface of
the pond - and radiating most of its heat into the atmosphere.

You also have to think about plants growing through the grid and how to
handle that.


San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

Although people would like more depth, you can in fact keep koi in
your pond. The rule of thumb is 1,000 Gal for the first koi and 100
for each additional one. Your pond is something like 7,000 US
gallons. It is a bit on the shallow side, but if it will not freeze,
they will survive fine in it.

I am trying to imagine a metal grid for an 8 meter pond!

A lot of us would want to encourage you to have your gardenr work out
some sort of veggie filter rather than only a mechanical one. Saves
work!

You can fit a bottom drain and have a waterfall, even if it is not
built in.

Keep us posted, or post some pics or drawings somewhere. Folks will
have lots of ideas for you.

Our pond is 12 x 22 x 2 and has handled the koi fine for more than a
decade. You can see it on our google profile link.

Best to you.

Jim