I've had zero experience with ponds and have a basic question which I
haven't found addressed anywhere online or in a book. Either I'm looking in
the wrong places, my question is too dumb, or no one who's written about
ponds remembers what it was like to know absolutely nothing about them.

My question is this: If, as I understand it, the pond needs oxygen in the
water to keep from stagnating and to support fish, and if certain plants are
generally used for this purpose, and if one needs a liner in the pond to
keep the water from seeping back into the earth, how are the plants to take
root? Obviously they can't get any nourishment from the pond liner and would
damage it if the roots penetrated it.

I'm having a real problem getting a grasp on this concept. And and all help
will be appreciated, as I am trying to plan my first pond.

The plants are put in a pot with dirt, usually heavy clay type, unless they
are "floaters" such as hyacinth or water lettuce - some people put gravel on
the pond floor and let them root into it, instead of pots - plant roots
won't penetrate the liner (with the exception of bamboo) . The floaters get
nutrients from the pond water (helps to clarify it). The potted type get fed
from fertilizer you give it, or from the crap collecting in the gravel on
the bottom

Gale :~)

My question is this: If, as I understand it, the pond needs oxygen in the
water to keep from stagnating and to support fish, and if certain plants
are
generally used for this purpose, and if one needs a liner in the pond to
keep the water from seeping back into the earth, how are the plants to
take
root? Obviously they can't get any nourishment from the pond liner and
would
damage it if the roots penetrated it.

I'm having a real problem getting a grasp on this concept. And and all
help
will be appreciated, as I am trying to plan my first pond.

"Pat" wrote in message
et...
I've had zero experience with ponds and have a basic question which
I
haven't found addressed anywhere online or in a book. Either I'm
looking in
the wrong places, my question is too dumb, or no one who's written
about
ponds remembers what it was like to know absolutely nothing about
them.

My question is this: If, as I understand it, the pond needs oxygen
in the
water to keep from stagnating and to support fish, and if certain
plants are
generally used for this purpose, and if one needs a liner in the
pond to
keep the water from seeping back into the earth, how are the plants
to take
root? Obviously they can't get any nourishment from the pond liner
and would
damage it if the roots penetrated it.

I'm having a real problem getting a grasp on this concept. And and
all help
will be appreciated, as I am trying to plan my first pond.

You'll get lots of answers but let me try
a starter. Many pond plants do fine taking
nutrients from the water column. I had my
hardy water lily in a pot, it outgrew it, I split
it several times, tossed it in other ponds and
the "babies" are doing fine without being
potted. Then there are the floaters, which
don't need to be potted although some can
be. Anacharis is one that does well in my
ponds, as well as hornwort. I think I have some
Parrot's feather growing in and out of pots.

Some people will argue your fish will eat the
plants, which is true, but if you have goldfish
(not koi) and a LOT of plants compared to fish
(as I do), there should be no problem maintaining
plant stock. Heck, if you lived near me I could
give you a lot of excess I typically end up
dumping on the compost pile!

BTW one of my ponds is "in-ground",
i.e., a liner on top of clay. The other two
ponds are stocktanks - hard plastic. All
pond plants I use work well in all my ponds.

Gail
near San Antonio TX USA

You have good answers.

Our main pond is cement. No root penetration! Plants float, grwo
wild on the bottom or are in pots. Fish waste provides nutrients.

Jim

If you were to toss some cuttings of oxygenating, submerged aquatics on a bare, lined pond they would float about. They might get mushy with surface coating algaes, Winter freezes turn them to mush in cold climates where they freeze in ice

Given a longish growing season, they would try to grow, mass up, and extend their stems downwards, putting out roots....

Anacharis can reach four, five, six feet downwards, their roots would intermesh with leaves and pond debris, they would anchor themselves... over time their roots would make a living blanket at the pond bottom. Cabomba likewise, will push stems downwards, putting out roots whose sole task is to knot, mesh, grip anything they can, if only itself and other roots....

Hornwort won't, it does not make roots, but it would send its stems into deeper water. Winter freezes encourage it to break into fragments which sink to the bottom of the pond, to restart when next growing temps warm the pond

Many aquatic plants are very adaptive, according to the growing conditions that they find themselves

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Phyllis and Jim wrote, On 08/06/2008 13:58:
You have good answers.

Our main pond is cement. No root penetration! Plants float, grwo
wild on the bottom or are in pots. Fish waste provides nutrients.

You all seem to be forgetting that a plant gains it's primary source of
nutrition by fixing co2 into sugars using energy from the sun. The
sugars are used as building blocks to grow, and fuel for other
processes. It's roots take up water and molecules such as nitrates,
phosphates and metals to help build proteins for specific processes
(such as photosynthesis). Luckily for us, fish crap out those kind of
goodies continuously.
People often make this same mistake about carnivorous plants, completely
forgetting that they are green and photosynthesise like any other plant
to generate their own food. In their case, insects provide the molecules
that don't exist naturally in their soils.

--
DavidM
www.djmorgan.org.uk

On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:17:15 EDT, "Pat"
wrote:

My question is this: If, as I understand it, the pond needs oxygen in the
water to keep from stagnating and to support fish, and if certain plants are
generally used for this purpose, and if one needs a liner in the pond to
keep the water from seeping back into the earth, how are the plants to take
root? Obviously they can't get any nourishment from the pond liner and would
damage it if the roots penetrated it.

Garden ponds usually have liners to hold the water. There are more
than one kind. The preformed plastic was the one I started with, but
soon learned about 40 mil EPDM (like rubber) and I prefer that type
now. Without a liner the pond would continually remain cloudy, since
goldfish and koi were both bottom feeders and suck up dirt and spit it
out looking for food in the bottom mud.

Water can be oxygenated by spraying it into the air or dropping it
from a water fall, flowing it down a stream or even pumping a stream
through the water generates some oxygen. Mud bottom ponds (usually
measured in acres) are often oxygenated by spraying the water into the
air and let it fall back into the pond.

Plants during daylight hours absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen,
but at night when sunlight is not available for plants to use to make
plant food, the plant takes oxygen from the water and releases some
carbon dioxide. This doesn't mean that plants aren't beneficial, they
are and more ways than just oxygenating the water. They absorb fish
wastes as plant nutrients helping to clean up the toilet bowl
existence of the fish pond. There are many plants that fish keepers
use, but the most popular are probably fast growing floaters, like
water hyacinth, water celery and several others. That is not to
discount the value of many others that require an anchor to keep them
in place. I have Louisiana iris anchored to cinder blocks, their
roots attach themselves to the heavier blocks and keep them upright in
winds. Rush and canna lilies also work well as cleaners in some
ponds, but the canna grow tall and blow over in the wind in my pond.

I don't consider my potted lilies an oxygen producing or cleaning
asset. I fertilize the lilies so they will bloom well, look good and
shade the pond as well as providing a cover for the fish. I feel I
should point out the fish will root around in plant pots and vacuum
the dirt up blow it out and leave the water cloudy if the pot surface
is not covered with stones the fish can't pick up and move.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

Gail Futoran wrote:
Many pond plants do fine taking
nutrients from the water column. I had my
hardy water lily in a pot, it outgrew it, I split
it several times, tossed it in other ponds and
the "babies" are doing fine without being
potted.

Many years ago I visited an exhibit sponsored by some agricultural firm
at DisneyWorld's EPCOT where they were growing corn? in nothing but air
and misting water. I remember being impressed by the huge size of the
plants and at the massive root systems just hanging there. Some on this
list may remember (or even still have some in their basement) as this is
a favored way to grow pot.

Dirt is simply a mechanical device to hold the plant in place, insulate
the roots from freezing or cooking, and provide a holding place for the
nutrients to reside while waiting for water to transport them to the
roots. If you anchor or allow the plants to float, have moderate
temperatures, and the water is already full of nutrients, Bob's your uncle.

BTW, how do bamboo roots pierce the liner? Do they have barbs?

Chip

"Pat" wrote in message

My question is this: If, as I understand it, the pond needs oxygen
in the water to keep from stagnating and to support fish, and if certain
plants are generally used for this purpose

Not generally in a man made small pond. We use waterfalls, airstones and
such.

and if one needs a liner how are the plants to take root?

Baskets lined with weed fabric holding soil, the plant, & rocks on top to
keep the fish from rooting out the soil while looking for worms.

Obviously they can't get any nourishment from the pond liner

Most pond plants get their nourishment from the water. Many don't need
pots, they just float. Grasses, like hornwort & anacharis will adhere to
folds in the liner all by themselves.

I am trying to plan my first pond.

It would help us if you would explain what your plans are, advice differs
for a koi pond, a goldfish pond, or a water garden with just small fish to
eat mosquitos, etc. Size? Location? Power sources.... Depth? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:49:27 EDT, Chip wrote:

BTW, how do bamboo roots pierce the liner? Do they have barbs?
Chip

Take a look:
http://bambootexas.com/YearRound.htm

And those spikes are HARD. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"~ jan" wrote

| Baskets lined with weed fabric

What is weed fabric?

| It would help us if you would explain what your plans are, advice differs
| for a koi pond, a goldfish pond, or a water garden with just small fish to
| eat mosquitos, etc. Size? Location? Power sources.... Depth? ~ jan

Small fish to eat mosquitos. I am mostly interested in cultivating frogs -
small green frogs - and providing amusement for local birds. It will be a
very small pond, definitely under 1k gallons. I am thinking of putting it in
the lowest part of the property and letting it collect rainwater.

Phyllis and Jim wrote:
You have good answers.

Our main pond is cement. No root penetration! Plants float, grwo
wild on the bottom or are in pots. Fish waste provides nutrients.

Back in the 60's, I had bamboo growing between the fence and the concrete
sidewalk. The bamboo broke through the concrete and came up in the sidewalk
(and everywhere else).

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!
I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War.
They are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops.
You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

On Jun 8, 12:01 pm, ~ jan wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:49:27 EDT, Chip wrote:
BTW, how do bamboo roots pierce the liner? Do they have barbs?
Chip

Take a look:http://bambootexas.com/YearRound.htm

And those spikes are HARD. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington StatePonds:www.jjspond.us

I believe from reading the link that that bamboo is not the same
variety as pond bamboo. Bamboo and many rushes have strong pointed
roots which can and do poke holes in pond liners. If you use them make
sure to plant them in HOLELESS pots that are very large so the root
don't over grow the pot in a season or two. Using a mix of heavy
garden soil or black top soil mixed with sharp builders sand make
repotting and dividing water plants much easier.

Small ponds are best for goldfish as the recommended size for koi is
500- 1000 gallons per full sized koi. Pumps, filters, skimmers and
air pumps all add oxygen to the pond. Mosquitoes breed in stagnant
water. fish love the larvae. Good luck, Gail

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 16:15:23 EDT, "Pat"
wrote:

| Baskets lined with weed fabric

What is weed fabric?

Cloth that people put down and then mulch over so weeds won't grow. Get the
cheap stuff, nothing with root inhibitors on it.

Small fish to eat mosquitos. I am mostly interested in cultivating frogs -
small green frogs - and providing amusement for local birds.

If you want frogs, don't put in fish, they eat frog spawn. At least tree
frog spawn. I'm not sure if anyone else has luck growing frogs with fish in
the pond?

very small pond, definitely under 1k gallons. I am thinking of putting it in
the lowest part of the property and letting it collect rainwater.

Easy maintenance, hopefully. We generally recommend not letting run off
flow into ponds due to all the nutrients and then green water it produces.
It is one of the biggest no no's in the books, don't put it in the lowest
part of the garden for this reason. Plus, rain water is acidic, but frogs
won't care. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

~ jan wrote:

If you want frogs, don't put in fish, they eat frog spawn. At least tree
frog spawn. I'm not sure if anyone else has luck growing frogs with fish
in the pond?

I always had toads spawning in my well stocked fish pond - but I always had
Green Frogs, and I can't say I often had successful spawnings (I certainly
found occasional frog tads, but not by the hundreds like the toads).
--
derek