I'm wondering how deep I will need to make my pond for some animals and
plants to survive the winter in it. I'm living in a small town the last few
years but was out in the country for decades before that, and I miss the
wildlife, especially turtles, frogs and snakes. The ponds on the farm didn't
have fish and were fairly murky. I want my "in town" pond to be much more
clear, and I may include some small fish.

One problem I've had both in the country and in town is frogs laying eggs in
the swimming pool. I use a Floatron ionizer rather than chlorine or
chemicals, so frog eggs do survive in the pool. Out in the country I would
scoop up the masses of frog eggs from the pool and deposit them in the pond.
Same for any tadpoles I found in buckets or pools of rain water. So one of
the main reasons for making a pond here is to have a handy place to put
tadpoles and eggs.

My efforts with the frogs out in the country paid off well and there were
frogs perched all over the place. I especially liked finding small green
tree frogs. They were numerous enough that their singing drowned out the
barking of neighbors' dogs and let me get to sleep at night. I really need
that here! So I want to cultivate tree frogs. Do they over-winter in the
bottom of a pond like some other frogs do? What about turtles?? (I realize
it will be hard to keep the turtles from wandering off, but I have a plan
for keeping them in the yard.)

Anyway, back to pond depth. I'm in southern Missouri and I've seen winters
with no snow as well as ice several inches deep on the surface of a pond,
even (rarely) a shallow pond frozen almost solid. How dependent on overall
pond size is the likelihood of it freezing solid, or is it all about depth?
If depth is the key, how much do I need? Because I have to do the digging by
hand and I have a bad back (also could hit bedrock not too far down), I want
to make it as shallow as I can get away with and still enable survival of
some animals and plants.

Thanks in advance for all shared wisdom.

"Pat" wrote in message
et...
I'm wondering how deep I will need to make my pond for some animals and
plants to survive the winter in it. I'm living in a small town the last
few
years but was out in the country for decades before that, and I miss the
wildlife, especially turtles, frogs and snakes. The ponds on the farm
didn't
have fish and were fairly murky. I want my "in town" pond to be much more
clear, and I may include some small fish.

One problem I've had both in the country and in town is frogs laying eggs
in
the swimming pool. I use a Floatron ionizer rather than chlorine or
chemicals, so frog eggs do survive in the pool. Out in the country I would
scoop up the masses of frog eggs from the pool and deposit them in the
pond.
Same for any tadpoles I found in buckets or pools of rain water. So one of
the main reasons for making a pond here is to have a handy place to put
tadpoles and eggs.

My efforts with the frogs out in the country paid off well and there were
frogs perched all over the place. I especially liked finding small green
tree frogs. They were numerous enough that their singing drowned out the
barking of neighbors' dogs and let me get to sleep at night. I really need
that here! So I want to cultivate tree frogs. Do they over-winter in the
bottom of a pond like some other frogs do? What about turtles?? (I realize
it will be hard to keep the turtles from wandering off, but I have a plan
for keeping them in the yard.)

Anyway, back to pond depth. I'm in southern Missouri and I've seen winters
with no snow as well as ice several inches deep on the surface of a pond,
even (rarely) a shallow pond frozen almost solid. How dependent on overall
pond size is the likelihood of it freezing solid, or is it all about
depth?
If depth is the key, how much do I need? Because I have to do the digging
by
hand and I have a bad back (also could hit bedrock not too far down), I
want
to make it as shallow as I can get away with and still enable survival of
some animals and plants.

Thanks in advance for all shared wisdom.
===========================================
The deepest part of your pond needs to be below the frostline for your area
by about a foot. At least that's the general wisdom and advice given here.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Reel McKoi" wrote

| The deepest part of your pond needs to be below the frostline for your
area
| by about a foot.

How do I find out where the frostline is? (I never heard of such a thing
before. Please pardon my stupidity.)

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:19:12 EDT, "Pat"
wrote:

Do they over-winter in the
bottom of a pond like some other frogs do?

The tree frogs in the PNW over-winter in the yard litter, leaves and such.

Anyway, back to pond depth. I'm in southern Missouri and I've seen winters
with no snow as well as ice several inches deep on the surface of a pond,
even (rarely) a shallow pond frozen almost solid. How dependent on overall
pond size is the likelihood of it freezing solid, or is it all about depth?
If depth is the key, how much do I need? Because I have to do the digging by
hand and I have a bad back (also could hit bedrock not too far down), I want
to make it as shallow as I can get away with and still enable survival of
some animals and plants.

Use of a stock tank heater and pond depth isn't that much of a problem even
in the coldest places. I'm sure you're familiar with the fact stock tanks
aren't even in the ground and stock tank heaters keep the water open for
livestock. I keep one on a remote control so it only runs when it is really
cold. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"~ jan" wrote
| If depth is the key, how much do I need?

| Use of a stock tank heater and pond depth isn't that much of a problem
even
| in the coldest places. I'm sure you're familiar with the fact stock tanks
| aren't even in the ground and stock tank heaters keep the water open for
| livestock. I keep one on a remote control so it only runs when it is
really
| cold.

I'd rather not have to use a heater. Still would like to know how to find
out what the "frostline" is.

"Pat" wrote in message
et...

"Reel McKoi" wrote

| The deepest part of your pond needs to be below the frostline for your
area
| by about a foot.

How do I find out where the frostline is? (I never heard of such a thing
before. Please pardon my stupidity.)
=============================
When I moved here I asked a neighbor. The frostline is how deep the soil
where you live freezes in an average winter. Usually your incoming water
lines will be below the frost line.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Jun 9, 7:40 am, "Pat" wrote:
"~ jan" wrote
| If depth is the key, how much do I need?

| Use of a stock tank heater and pond depth isn't that much of a problem
even
| in the coldest places. I'm sure you're familiar with the fact stock tanks
| aren't even in the ground and stock tank heaters keep the water open for
| livestock. I keep one on a remote control so it only runs when it is
really
| cold.

I'd rather not have to use a heater. Still would like to know how to find
out what the "frostline" is.

If you are posting, you have a computer and you have google - www.google.com
.. Do a search for your area using "frost line zone temperature". It
is much more fun for you to pick and choose what info works.

A quick and dirty gave me this. Keep in mind that you want below that
deep enough that the animals have breathing room. You will have to
keep a whole in the ice in any case and a bubbler is often recommended
when things get really cold..

http://www.hpj.com/archives/2004/feb...stlineisim.cfm
http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/gl_seasonal...742697,00.html

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:40:47 EDT, "Pat"
wrote:

I'd rather not have to use a heater. Still would like to know how to find
out what the "frostline" is.

Call someone who puts in foundations for homes.

As far as not using a heater, go deep, you'll still need something to keep
a hole open in the ice so the critters have O2. ~ jan

------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us