I'm glad I found this group, I've added back to April.
Is there a FAQ I've missed seeing?
(group has lotsa info., but I'm not fully understanding much.)
I've read the charter.
I live in temparate Pacific NW.

I do not know much about this
(so corrections are welcome - especially where I have names wrong).
For years I've had and enjoyed two ponds with fish.
The fish are currently only 'goldfish' or similar/related.
They each have about the same number of fish
per gallon and/or surface area.
This year the only 'floating' plants are what I've heard
called 'frog bit' (each 'leaf' is about 1/8" long, three
leaves per plant). This plant currently is restricted
to about 1/3 of each ponds surface area.
I have pumps (currently use them about 2 hours every
couple of days). Top one squirts a stream of water a
couple feet and lands back in pond. Bottom one pumps
water down a 3 step cascade.
I've 'mucked' out considerable gunk from the bottom
of both (but never drained or totally cleaned).
When evaporation exceeds rain, I fill tap water
(clorinated etc.) into barrels, let sit for 24 hours, then add.

The real difference between ponds is my
"Bottom pond" has a large "Water Iris", big grass like
leafs, some stems and at time yellow flowers on stems.
This grow on a 'shelf' - takes about 1/5th of surface.

In years past, they both had the water clear up probably
in late June/July.
This year the bottom 'brown' has pretty much cleared
up fairly recently.
The top pond's water still looks quite 'green'.

Is this likely "algae"?

What problems does it cause?
(Besides limiting viewing?
Is too much of it harmful to fish?)

Does running the pumps make it worse?
(by increasing oxygen in water?)
(Running pumps more & longer certainly did not seem
to make it better!!??)

One person advocated, letting the 'frogbit'
expand to cover 2/3 of surface.
Does that help?
(If so, real quick and easy to do!)

I've tried some with various filter ideas,
and somewhat open to more.

Thanks for your indulgance.

Algae comes in various forms. So you can get
green water (free floating green cells) and stringy
algae on the side, floating clumps, fuzzy algae
that covers everything.
Some algae is good, natural to the pond. Too much
yukky algae and the pond is out of balance.
Biggest culprits - too many fish, overfeeding the fish
and accumulated gunk.
All algae thrives on sun, fresh water, fish waste, plant waste,
blown in dirt.
Letting the frogbit expand will help provide shade
and compete for the nutrients that algae likes.
Plants are always a good idea.
Fewer fish helps, getting out gunk, shade.

Lots of folks run their water thru a separate tank
filled with plants to suck up all those nutrients
(we call it a veggie filter).

Most of us run our fountains and waterfalls 24/7.
Nighttime is when the fish can be stressed for
oxygen as the plants use o2 at night and switch
during the day. A good indication your fish are
out of o2 is to view the pond just before sunrise.
If they are gasping at the surface they need water
movement at night. An airstone attached to an
air pump will help too.

Some ponds use ultra violet light to kill algae
cells. It is set into a line that runs to a mechanical
or biological filter.

One thing I don't recommend is algaecides as they
make suddenly dead algae which stresses the pond
and provides tasty dead plant material for new
algae to consume.

Am also in PNW, SE WA.
k :-)

Plants suck up the nutrients (fish pooh) that feed the algae. Shade
prevents the algae from thriving. To me the best way to keep the pond
clear is a veggie filter with the addition of plants in the pond that cover
the surface (water lilies, duck weed, etc.). The only reason you would not
want the entire surface covered is that you could not see your fish and if
you have oxygenator plants, they would need the sun.

"a425couple" wrote in message
...
I'm glad I found this group, I've added back to April.
Is there a FAQ I've missed seeing?
(group has lotsa info., but I'm not fully understanding much.)
I've read the charter.
I live in temparate Pacific NW.

I do not know much about this (so corrections are welcome - especially
where I have names wrong).
For years I've had and enjoyed two ponds with fish.
The fish are currently only 'goldfish' or similar/related.
They each have about the same number of fish per gallon and/or surface
area.
This year the only 'floating' plants are what I've heard called 'frog bit'
(each 'leaf' is about 1/8" long, three leaves per plant). This plant
currently is restricted to about 1/3 of each ponds surface area.
I have pumps (currently use them about 2 hours every couple of days). Top
one squirts a stream of water a couple feet and lands back in pond.
Bottom one pumps water down a 3 step cascade.
I've 'mucked' out considerable gunk from the bottom of both (but never
drained or totally cleaned).
When evaporation exceeds rain, I fill tap water (clorinated etc.) into
barrels, let sit for 24 hours, then add.

The real difference between ponds is my "Bottom pond" has a large "Water
Iris", big grass like leafs, some stems and at time yellow flowers on
stems.
This grow on a 'shelf' - takes about 1/5th of surface.

In years past, they both had the water clear up probably in late
June/July.
This year the bottom 'brown' has pretty much cleared up fairly recently.
The top pond's water still looks quite 'green'.

Is this likely "algae"?

What problems does it cause?
(Besides limiting viewing?
Is too much of it harmful to fish?)

Does running the pumps make it worse?
(by increasing oxygen in water?)
(Running pumps more & longer certainly did not seem to make it better!!??)

One person advocated, letting the 'frogbit' expand to cover 2/3 of
surface.
Does that help?
(If so, real quick and easy to do!)

I've tried some with various filter ideas, and somewhat open to more.

Thanks for your indulgance.

On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 22:00:31 EDT, kathy wrote:

All algae thrives on sun, fresh water, fish waste, plant waste,
blown in dirt.

We must STOP this myth, pleasssse. "The fresh water myth." We have
people in the koi club with 24/7 flow thru, changing out 10%/day. There is
NO green water in their ponds. Fuzzy good algae on the sides yes, but not
suspended algae (makes the water green).

Algae thrives on sun and nutrient rich water. Fresh water, from the tap, is
not nutrient rich. And unbalanced pond also causes green water.

To 425couple, the reason your ponds are not clear this year is because your
fish have grown and you probably have too many for your ponds. How many
fish and what sizes are they? Have they added to their environment by
created more? It doesn't sound like you know for sure how many gallons you
have, most people over estimate.

Cheapest solution to problem, WATER CHANGES, take some out, put fresh in.
Got a problem? 10%/day till the problem clears up (you may have to decrease
the population). No problems, 20%/week minimum.

Turn on the pumps 24/7.

We have lots of pond clubs in the PNW. See AKCA.org for one near you.
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Okay, how about - fresh water added to the pond can
be a concern if your water source is heavy in phosphorus?
Is a problem in some areas of the country where they
are actively trying to rid their reservoirs of phosphorus.


k :-)

~ jan wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2008 22:00:31 EDT, kathy wrote:

All algae thrives on sun, fresh water, fish waste, plant waste,
blown in dirt.

We must STOP this myth, pleasssse. "The fresh water myth." We have
people in the koi club with 24/7 flow thru, changing out 10%/day. There is
NO green water in their ponds. Fuzzy good algae on the sides yes, but not
suspended algae (makes the water green).

Algae thrives on sun and nutrient rich water. Fresh water, from the tap,
is not nutrient rich. And unbalanced pond also causes green water.

I haven't actually come across this myth before, but I guess I can
understand how it came about. Some "fresh" water could be high in either
phosphates or nitrates (especially if the water comes from shallow wells -
otoh, chloramine treated water is a source of nitrogen). So I guess _some_
people's "fresh" water could trigger algal blooms. But on the whole I'd
have to agree the problem isn't fresh water.

I'll add to the list above, though, that "dirt" per se isn't of any value to
algae. Only if it comes with phosphates and nitrates is it going to
matter.

Algae needs _only_ phosphate, nitrogen and sunlight. A common cause of
algae is fertilizer imbalance. Potassium isn't required for algae growth,
but is for plants. If you don't have enough potassium (like, perhaps, the
person with yellowing water hyacinth) the plants can't use all the nitrogen
and phosphorus - but the algae can, and so you get algae blooms.
--
derek

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:08:29 EDT, kathy wrote:

Okay, how about - fresh water added to the pond can
be a concern if your water source is heavy in phosphorus?
Is a problem in some areas of the country where they
are actively trying to rid their reservoirs of phosphorus.


I could live with that, and what Derek mentioned.

Unfortunately people don't include the minute chance and it gets turned
into "fresh" water. I don't really consider phosphorus-rich or nitrate-rich
water as "fresh". See nutrients. ;-)

As far as chloramines, etc. if one has a balanced pond, good filter,
plants, etc. the change outs, are still better than none at all. The
chlorine will degas or detox on the organics in the pond, the ammonia will
be taken care of in the filter.

The OP said she was in the PNW. Do you know of any phosphorus problems
city-water-wise in the PNW? I've never heard it mentioned from other pond
clubs. Now in farming areas, some wells do have a nitrate problem to the
point the people connected to it need reverse osmosis or use bottled water.
Even in that case, as good veggie filter would take care of it before it
hit the pond. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:52:42 EDT, Derek Broughton
wrote:

I haven't actually come across this myth before, but I guess I can
understand how it came about.

In the olden days of rec.ponds people would do 50% or more water changes
out. Then they'd get green water soon after refilling. The blame, all that
"fresh" water. When most likely they unbalanced the chemistry of the pond,
giving algae a chance to get a grip.

So the blanket statement of algae being caused by fresh water, is very
erroneous unless clarified. I suggest one start with small frequent water
changes and if the problem continues a tap water check may be in order....
and not just for the health of the pond. ;-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Well, you just have to wonder why Green Lake
got its name....

k ;-)

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:12:59 EDT, kathy wrote:

Well, you just have to wonder why Green Lake
got its name.... k ;-)

Green lake doesn't have an algae problem I don't think it is too full of
aquatic weeds. ;-) Now if you really wanted to see a greeeen lake, Moses
Lake had Green Lake beat.... but now, I'm not so sure. ML is so full of
aquatic weeds they have a harvester that looks like a backward
sternwheeler. Trims the weeds off 2ish feet below the surface so boats can
still go thru it now days.

Btw, I loved Green Lake as a kid. They use to have a water ski tournament
there every year and I loved biking around the lake. What a wonderful time
that was. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Doesn't now, but did.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...enlake19m.html
(remember our kid days were a loooooong time ago!)

Went by it last week whilst going to see eldest son's new apt.
On a street with bars, what more could a bunch of 20 somethings
want??
Nice area, strange intersections, six roads coming into a six
way stop of something like that, I was too terrified to really
notice and the kids had to tell me when it was okay to go.
I soooooo dislike city driving.

k :-)

"kathy" wrote
"a425couple" wrote ...
(basicly = two ponds, bigger bottom doing well,
smaller top is 'greenish')

Thank you very much Kathy,
-jan, Derek, and DKat.

I have read all your good comments.
(and please do not think of me too negatively
as impossibily lazy, cheap, or stupid, ,
((I think I'm only moderately the above!))
but I doubt I even could do all the suggestions.)

I've learned a lot and made some changes.

All algae thrives on sun, -- fish waste, --
Letting the frogbit expand will help provide shade
and compete for the nutrients that algae likes.

I read this on the 9th, said "this step is easy!"
That evening tried first change.
(I normally use 'cut/broken to length windfall
branches' to separate "clear viewable surface"
from "frogbit carpet".)
I grabbed a length of old damaged green garden
hose, cut off about a 2 1/2 foot length, whittled
a stick, stuck it in end, curved hose around,
stuck in other end to create a circle, put it in
'clear surface', removed the branch, let the rain
and natural 'effort to expand' happen, and by
morning the pond was mostly covered by 'frogbit'.

Through that circle/view window, it seems the
water is getting clearer.

Plants are always a good idea.

Yes. (normally each spring we buy some of
those floating plants - just failed to do so this year.)
On the 10th, tried my favorite nursery store, they were
out/done with them for year. I will try another.

Biggest culprits --- too many fish, overfeeding the fish

I'll certainly accept that my current population
(averaging about one 3 1/2" goldfish per 12-15 gallons)
is more than reccomended.
(I bought figuring on past mortality rates, and am
not going to complain that they all lived, and avoided
predation, nor will I choose to execute them for their
error of 'staying alive'.)
Also, losses will surely occur again.

Also, the reason I have the ponds is for enjoyment,
and I get pleasure from sitting by them and feeding
the colorful fish 2-3 times a day.

Biggest culprits --- accumulated gunk. --getting out gunk,

Yes, I accept that this spring's 'de-gunking' , "mucking-out"
should probably have been more through.
In the cold rainy fall and winter, huge number of leaves fall
and are blown into the ponds. They sink and degrade
into 'muck'. Often enough the ponds freeze over
(sometimes 1/4", sometimes up to 1 1/2").
As spring warms the water, I 'de-muck' and generally
find that most of the fish I'd last seen, are still present
and alive.

Most of us run our fountains and waterfalls 24/7.

That may be good, but I'm not going to normally do it.
Over the years I've had 3-4 near catastrophies from
that (critters dislodge hose or mechanical failure of
spout getting plugged - dribble outside "continential divide") .
Found it gives me a horrible feeling in morning to find the
pond sucked almost totally dry!

One thing I don't recommend is algaecides

I agree.

Thanks again to all.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:37:33 EDT, "a425couple"
wrote:

I have read all your good comments.
(and please do not think of me too negatively
as impossibily lazy, cheap, or stupid, ,
((I think I'm only moderately the above!))
but I doubt I even could do all the suggestions.)

We'd think nothing of the sort. In fact, I think most of us can relate and
than tailor our advice to the needs of the ponder. As I mentioned, the
cheapest, easiest solution to most pond problems are frequent partial water
changes.

Of course the more info we have about the size of each pond and residents
therein helps.... and even though it is more personal, letting us know to
what effort the ponder can go to, helps. We've had people go all the way to
microscopes, scrapings, classes, and meds to save a fish. But not everyone
has the time, money, or energy to do so.

I've been on forums where I went for help and was scolded for not doing
what they said... and then not doing everything to save a fish with half
it's face gone, because I decided to conk it on the head. There is a point
to which one can go, and ponding was getting a bit stressful at that time.
It was easier to humanely put those severely sick out of their misery then
stress them and myself out trying to save them using expensive meds while
in a small Q-tank. (Overcrowding is what did me in back then.)

I'll certainly accept that my current population
(averaging about one 3 1/2" goldfish per 12-15 gallons)
is more than reccomended.

Yes, that's about the recommendation for an inside aquarium with a filter
turning the water over mega times/hour.

predation, nor will I choose to execute them for their
error of 'staying alive'.)

Most pet stores will buy them back for store credit.

Yes, I accept that this spring's 'de-gunking' , "mucking-out"

Depending on pond size, a shop vac does this very easily.

Most of us run our fountains and waterfalls 24/7.

That may be good, but I'm not going to normally do it.

Then the next best thing is to have an air pump with bubbler going in the
pond 24/7. The problem with not running the above is that when you do turn
them on, usually when you're sitting out there, they stir up the gunk.
Messing up the view.

Frequent partial water changes? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

I am possibly the laziest ponder there is and I challenge you to out do me!
They are just ideas and you grab what works for you. There is no perfect
solution and we would certainly not think negatively towards you. When you
find what works for you, you can share. I'm always looking for an easier
path!

Donna

"a425couple" wrote in message
. ..
"kathy" wrote "a425couple"
wrote ...
(basicly = two ponds, bigger bottom doing well, smaller top is
'greenish')

Thank you very much Kathy, -jan, Derek, and DKat.

I have read all your good comments. (and please do not think of me too
negatively as impossibily lazy, cheap, or stupid, , ((I think I'm only
moderately the above!)) but I doubt I even could do all the suggestions.)

I've learned a lot and made some changes.

All algae thrives on sun, -- fish waste, --
Letting the frogbit expand will help provide shade
and compete for the nutrients that algae likes.

I read this on the 9th, said "this step is easy!"
That evening tried first change.
(I normally use 'cut/broken to length windfall branches' to separate
"clear viewable surface" from "frogbit carpet".)
I grabbed a length of old damaged green garden hose, cut off about a 2 1/2
foot length, whittled a stick, stuck it in end, curved hose around, stuck
in other end to create a circle, put it in 'clear surface', removed the
branch, let the rain and natural 'effort to expand' happen, and by morning
the pond was mostly covered by 'frogbit'.

Through that circle/view window, it seems the water is getting clearer.

Plants are always a good idea.

Yes. (normally each spring we buy some of those floating plants - just
failed to do so this year.)
On the 10th, tried my favorite nursery store, they were out/done with them
for year. I will try another.

Biggest culprits --- too many fish, overfeeding the fish

I'll certainly accept that my current population (averaging about one 3
1/2" goldfish per 12-15 gallons) is more than reccomended.
(I bought figuring on past mortality rates, and am not going to complain
that they all lived, and avoided predation, nor will I choose to execute
them for their error of 'staying alive'.)
Also, losses will surely occur again.

Also, the reason I have the ponds is for enjoyment, and I get pleasure
from sitting by them and feeding the colorful fish 2-3 times a day.

Biggest culprits --- accumulated gunk. --getting out gunk,

Yes, I accept that this spring's 'de-gunking' , "mucking-out" should
probably have been more through.
In the cold rainy fall and winter, huge number of leaves fall and are
blown into the ponds. They sink and degrade into 'muck'. Often enough
the ponds freeze over (sometimes 1/4", sometimes up to 1 1/2"). As spring
warms the water, I 'de-muck' and generally find that most of the fish I'd
last seen, are still present and alive.

Most of us run our fountains and waterfalls 24/7.

That may be good, but I'm not going to normally do it.
Over the years I've had 3-4 near catastrophies from that (critters
dislodge hose or mechanical failure of spout getting plugged - dribble
outside "continential divide") .
Found it gives me a horrible feeling in morning to find the pond sucked
almost totally dry!
One thing I don't recommend is algaecides

I agree.

Thanks again to all.

Hmmmm, Donna, we may have to have a contest
to decide the laziest ponder between the two of us,
but that feels like too much work....... :-))

I always ask mineself what does Mother Nature do -
I figure she is a lazy ponder too. Lots of water, few
fish, doesn't feed them, lets the predators run wild,
lets the plants grow unchecked, doesn't ever
trim them, never cleans the pond, even lets it fill in
eventually. She's probably off in a corner of the garden
taking a nap.

k :-)