Pond Liner
 

Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way to
go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl, which
we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila

Pond Liner
 

Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way
to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl,
which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how much
exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go, usually guranteed
for at least 20 years.
--
Pete C
London UK

Pond Liner
 

Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way
to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl,
which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how much
exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go, usually guranteed
for at least 20 years.


Is Buytl a time of rubber? I've not heard of it before.

Sheila

Pond Liner
 

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 13:50:18 EDT, Sheila wrote:


Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way to
go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl, which
we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila

Vinyl tends to crack over time. Where EPDM (rubber) has more flex. Usually
they give the life span guarantee of EPDM as 20 years, but if not moved and
always covered with water I bet it last a lot longer.

Anyone have an EPDM pond going longer than 20 years? If so, how long?
Mine are 13. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Pond Liner
 

Sheila wrote:
Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said
that a vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner
is the way to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our
pond. Is vinyl, which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how
much exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go, usually
guranteed for at least 20 years.


Is Buytl a time of rubber? I've not heard of it before.

Sheila
"Polyisobutylene" is synthetic rubber.
--
Pete C
London UK

Pond Liner
 

~ jan wrote:

Vinyl tends to crack over time. Where EPDM (rubber) has more flex. Usually
they give the life span guarantee of EPDM as 20 years, but if not moved and
always covered with water I bet it last a lot longer.

Anyone have an EPDM pond going longer than 20 years? If so, how long?
Mine are 13. ~ jan


Does anybody have a good (read: cheap) source for LARGE 30'x60' EPDM. I
have heard the cheaper roofing EPDM is the same as the pond EPDM, but I
have also heard that it isn't. Anybody know the TRUTH?

Chip

Pond Liner
 

Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said
that a vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner
is the way to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our
pond. Is vinyl, which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how
much exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go, usually
guranteed for at least 20 years.

Is Buytl a time of rubber? I've not heard of it before.

Sheila
"Polyisobutylene" is synthetic rubber.

Thanks

Pond Liner
 

~ jan wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 13:50:18 EDT, Sheila wrote:

Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way to
go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl, which
we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila

Vinyl tends to crack over time. Where EPDM (rubber) has more flex. Usually
they give the life span guarantee of EPDM as 20 years, but if not moved and
always covered with water I bet it last a lot longer.

Anyone have an EPDM pond going longer than 20 years? If so, how long?
Mine are 13. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us


Thanks Jan

Pond Liner
 

I
have heard the cheaper roofing EPDM is the same as the pond EPDM, but I
have also heard that it isn't. Anybody know the TRUTH?

Chip

Firestone makes most, if not all EPDM. Some roofing films have a fire
retardant,
but couldn't not find anything else. MSDS does not list a fungicide
content.
I hear it's all the same, save the FR. But....
Contact Firestone and ask.

Pond Liner
 

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 13:50:18 EDT, Sheila
wrote:

Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way to
go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl, which
we have not going to hold up for many years?

When a Georgia contractor says rubber liner, he probably means EPDM,
which some still call rubber, hard rubber or roofing sheet rubber.
Butyl isn't readily available here in sheets, although you may find
some in tapes and sealers for repairs. In fact you will be lucky if
you can find a roofing supply house that still handles sheet EPDM.
I'm in Warner Robins and my first EPDM liner, (An EPDM roofing sheet.)
came from Warner Robins Supply, a local building supply and my last
one from he
http://www.justliners.com/epdm.htm

No, the liner didn't go bad, the lawn timbers rotted. I changed the
pond from a wooden frame above ground to a retaining wall stone frame
above ground.

--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

Pond Liner
 

Sheila wrote:

Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way
to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl,
which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how much
exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go, usually guranteed
for at least 20 years.


Is Buytl a time of rubber? I've not heard of it before.

Yes. It's extremely heavy, and really not the choice of _anybody_ who's
built a large pond before. EPDM (ethyl poly blah blah blah :-) ) is much
lighter, and often has the same guarantee. There are even lighter woven
HDPE (high density polyethylene) plastics - they're certainly the choice
for _very_ large ponds, because they're much lighter and cheaper than EPDM,
but they can sometimes be awkward, as they're stiffer than EPDM.
--
derek

Pond Liner
 

I haven't purchased EPDM since 2001. Has this gone up in price since I
assume it is a petroleum product? What is the latest on prices? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Pond Liner
 

Derek Broughton wrote:
Sheila wrote:

Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said
that a vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner
is the way to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our
pond. Is vinyl, which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how
much exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go,
usually guranteed for at least 20 years.


Is Buytl a time of rubber? I've not heard of it before.

Yes. It's extremely heavy, and really not the choice of _anybody_
who's built a large pond before. EPDM (ethyl poly blah blah blah :-)
) is much lighter, and often has the same guarantee. There are even
lighter woven HDPE (high density polyethylene) plastics - they're
certainly the choice for _very_ large ponds, because they're much
lighter and cheaper than EPDM, but they can sometimes be awkward, as
they're stiffer than EPDM.

Heavy?? I don't know what you're thinking of Derek, but my liner is only
0.75mm thick.......no weight at all.
--
Pete C
London UK

Pond Liner
 

Pete C wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:
Sheila wrote:

Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said
that a vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner
is the way to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our
pond. Is vinyl, which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how
much exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go,
usually guranteed for at least 20 years.


Is Buytl a time of rubber? I've not heard of it before.

Yes. It's extremely heavy, and really not the choice of _anybody_
who's built a large pond before. EPDM (ethyl poly blah blah blah :-)
) is much lighter, and often has the same guarantee. There are even
lighter woven HDPE (high density polyethylene) plastics - they're
certainly the choice for _very_ large ponds, because they're much
lighter and cheaper than EPDM, but they can sometimes be awkward, as
they're stiffer than EPDM.

Heavy?? I don't know what you're thinking of Derek, but my liner is only
0.75mm thick.......no weight at all.

Millimeters? Not "mils"? Liners in N. America are generally measured in
mils, and a 75 mil liner is thick. If it's really .75 mm, that's 30 mils,
and I'd say too thin for an EPDM or vinyl liner, but not HDPE and _perhaps_
not Butyl. Either way, butyl is a lot heavier than any of the alternatives
at the same thickness. If it isn't heavier, it isn't butyl.
--
derek

Pond Liner
 

Derek Broughton wrote:
Sheila wrote:

Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way
to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl,
which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila
Vinyl will last 4/5 years if your lucky. Depends very much on how much
exposed material is in the sun. Butyl is the way to go, usually guranteed
for at least 20 years.

Is Buytl a time of rubber? I've not heard of it before.

Yes. It's extremely heavy, and really not the choice of _anybody_ who's
built a large pond before. EPDM (ethyl poly blah blah blah :-) ) is much
lighter, and often has the same guarantee. There are even lighter woven
HDPE (high density polyethylene) plastics - they're certainly the choice
for _very_ large ponds, because they're much lighter and cheaper than EPDM,
but they can sometimes be awkward, as they're stiffer than EPDM.

Thanks for explaining that.

Pond Liner
 

Hal wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 13:50:18 EDT, Sheila
wrote:

Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way to
go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl, which
we have not going to hold up for many years?

When a Georgia contractor says rubber liner, he probably means EPDM,
which some still call rubber, hard rubber or roofing sheet rubber.
Butyl isn't readily available here in sheets, although you may find
some in tapes and sealers for repairs. In fact you will be lucky if
you can find a roofing supply house that still handles sheet EPDM.
I'm in Warner Robins and my first EPDM liner, (An EPDM roofing sheet.)
came from Warner Robins Supply, a local building supply and my last
one from he
http://www.justliners.com/epdm.htm

No, the liner didn't go bad, the lawn timbers rotted. I changed the
pond from a wooden frame above ground to a retaining wall stone frame
above ground.



Thanks for the info Hal.

Well, we decided not to redo the 'pond' really just used as a fountain
until the vinyl cracks. I wanted to put in a drain, to make it easier
to clean, but will wait for now.

Sheila

Pond Liner
 

Derek Broughton wrote:

Millimeters? Not "mils"? Liners in N. America are generally
measured in mils, and a 75 mil liner is thick. If it's really .75
mm, that's 30 mils, and I'd say too thin for an EPDM or vinyl liner,
but not HDPE and _perhaps_ not Butyl. Either way, butyl is a lot
heavier than any of the alternatives at the same thickness. If it
isn't heavier, it isn't butyl.

My 0.75 millimetre butyl liner......
http://www.bradshawsdirect.co.uk/Bra...oduct/GLBU.htm

QED ? :)
--
Pete C
London UK

Pond Liner
 

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:41:41 EDT, ~ jan wrote:

I haven't purchased EPDM since 2001. Has this gone up in price since I
assume it is a petroleum product? What is the latest on prices? ~ jan

I don't know what it was in 2001, or even yesterday, but here is a
place to check for price today, at least in my neighborhood.
http://www.justliners.com/epdm.htm

--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

Pond Liner
 

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:12:02 EDT, Sheila
wrote:

Well, we decided not to redo the 'pond' really just used as a fountain
until the vinyl cracks. I wanted to put in a drain, to make it easier
to clean, but will wait for now.

It is a good idea to plan well for a bottom drain when you do decide
to replace the liner. I buried my filter barrels and can't drain
them, but have to use a shop vac to clean them. OTOH my pond bottom
drain is gravity flow through the filters and pumped from the third
barrel. Most of us in this part of Georgia don't have our ponds on a
nice hill that would allow draining everything by gravity flow, but
that is a nice feature, if it is practical for you.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

Pond Liner
 

Pete C wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:

Millimeters? Not "mils"? Liners in N. America are generally
measured in mils, and a 75 mil liner is thick. If it's really .75
mm, that's 30 mils, and I'd say too thin for an EPDM or vinyl liner,
but not HDPE and _perhaps_ not Butyl. Either way, butyl is a lot
heavier than any of the alternatives at the same thickness. If it
isn't heavier, it isn't butyl.

My 0.75 millimetre butyl liner......
http://www.bradshawsdirect.co.uk/Bra...oduct/GLBU.htm

QED ? :)

QED what? I'd already discovered that in the UK they were typically being
sold in .75mm, so I have no problem with that, but it's _still_ much
heavier than any other pond liner for the same thickness. Unfortunately I
can't find any actual weights - only the warnings that they need special
shipping, which usually applies to EPDM, too.
--
derek

Pond Liner
 

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:22:36 EDT, Hal wrote:

I don't know what it was in 2001, or even yesterday, but here is a
place to check for price today, at least in my neighborhood.
http://www.justliners.com/epdm.htm

Doesn't look like it has gone up much in price. Tx, Hal. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Pond Liner
 

Hal wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:12:02 EDT, Sheila
wrote:

Well, we decided not to redo the 'pond' really just used as a fountain
until the vinyl cracks. I wanted to put in a drain, to make it easier
to clean, but will wait for now.

It is a good idea to plan well for a bottom drain when you do decide
to replace the liner. I buried my filter barrels and can't drain
them, but have to use a shop vac to clean them. OTOH my pond bottom
drain is gravity flow through the filters and pumped from the third
barrel. Most of us in this part of Georgia don't have our ponds on a
nice hill that would allow draining everything by gravity flow, but
that is a nice feature, if it is practical for you.

Gravity drain is what I would do, because my pond is above ground with a
rock wall exterior, also it is higher because our back yard slopes to
the rear slightly and it is fairly close to the house.

Never will I build a pond without a drain.

Sheila

Pond Liner
 

Derek Broughton wrote:
Pete C wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:

Millimeters? Not "mils"? Liners in N. America are generally
measured in mils, and a 75 mil liner is thick. If it's really .75
mm, that's 30 mils, and I'd say too thin for an EPDM or vinyl liner,
but not HDPE and _perhaps_ not Butyl. Either way, butyl is a lot
heavier than any of the alternatives at the same thickness. If it
isn't heavier, it isn't butyl.

My 0.75 millimetre butyl liner......
http://www.bradshawsdirect.co.uk/Bra...oduct/GLBU.htm

QED ? :)

QED what? I'd already discovered that in the UK they were typically
being sold in .75mm, so I have no problem with that, but it's _still_
much heavier than any other pond liner for the same thickness.
Unfortunately I can't find any actual weights - only the warnings
that they need special shipping, which usually applies to EPDM, too.

looked for weights too, with no more success than you. As 45 mil EPDM is in
fact 1.14mm thick, wouldn't that be more likely to be the heavier? :)
--
Pete C
London UK

Pond Liner
 

Pete C wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:
Pete C wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:

Millimeters? Not "mils"? Liners in N. America are generally
measured in mils, and a 75 mil liner is thick. If it's really .75
mm, that's 30 mils, and I'd say too thin for an EPDM or vinyl liner,
but not HDPE and _perhaps_ not Butyl. Either way, butyl is a lot
heavier than any of the alternatives at the same thickness. If it
isn't heavier, it isn't butyl.

My 0.75 millimetre butyl liner......
http://www.bradshawsdirect.co.uk/Bra...oduct/GLBU.htm

QED ? :)

QED what? I'd already discovered that in the UK they were typically
being sold in .75mm, so I have no problem with that, but it's _still_
much heavier than any other pond liner for the same thickness.
Unfortunately I can't find any actual weights - only the warnings
that they need special shipping, which usually applies to EPDM, too.

looked for weights too, with no more success than you. As 45 mil EPDM
is in
fact 1.14mm thick, wouldn't that be more likely to be the heavier? :)


EPDM :
1.02 mm (.040²) 1.25 kg/m2
1.14 mm (.045²) 1.41 kg/m2

from this link:
http://www.firestonebpe.com/lining/s...omembrane/_en/

Interesting that they say the lighter one is recommended for garden ponds
..

They seem to not want to give us the weight of butyl, can't find it
anywhere.


San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

Pond Liner
 

San Diego Joe wrote:
Pete C wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:
Pete C wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote:

Millimeters? Not "mils"? Liners in N. America are generally
measured in mils, and a 75 mil liner is thick. If it's really .75
mm, that's 30 mils, and I'd say too thin for an EPDM or vinyl
liner, but not HDPE and _perhaps_ not Butyl. Either way, butyl is
a lot heavier than any of the alternatives at the same thickness.
If it isn't heavier, it isn't butyl.

My 0.75 millimetre butyl liner......
http://www.bradshawsdirect.co.uk/Bra...oduct/GLBU.htm

QED ? :)

QED what? I'd already discovered that in the UK they were typically
being sold in .75mm, so I have no problem with that, but it's
_still_ much heavier than any other pond liner for the same
thickness. Unfortunately I can't find any actual weights - only the
warnings that they need special shipping, which usually applies to
EPDM, too.

looked for weights too, with no more success than you. As 45 mil
EPDM is in fact 1.14mm thick, wouldn't that be more likely to be the
heavier? :)


EPDM :
1.02 mm (.040²) 1.25 kg/m2
1.14 mm (.045²) 1.41 kg/m2

from this link:
http://www.firestonebpe.com/lining/s...omembrane/_en/

Interesting that they say the lighter one is recommended for garden
ponds .

They seem to not want to give us the weight of butyl, can't find it
anywhere.

Thanks for that anyway :)
--
Pete C
London UK

Pond Liner
 

Pete C wrote:

looked for weights too, with no more success than you. As 45 mil EPDM is
in
fact 1.14mm thick, wouldn't that be more likely to be the heavier? :)

No, because Butyl is a denser rubber.
--
derek

Pond Liner
 

Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way
to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl,
which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila

Sheila and others may find this interesting......
http://www.pond-solutions.co.uk/FAQ/...tyl_rubber.htm

:)
--
Pete C
London UK

Pond Liner
 

Pete C wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Yesterday we were talking to a guy who builds ponds and he said that a
vinyl liner will crack in several years and a rubber liner is the way
to go. We were talking to him about how to redo our pond. Is vinyl,
which we have not going to hold up for many years?

Sheila

Sheila and others may find this interesting......
http://www.pond-solutions.co.uk/FAQ/...tyl_rubber.htm

:)


Thanks for the site information.