Years back I was able to purchase some pond "soil" at Lowe's & Home Depot.
It was made by Scott's, I think. It was ceramic particles actually and not
soil. It was nice because it did not float or cloud the water and should the
Koi uproot the plant it was easy enough to scoop into the basket and replant
the whatever.

I guess I could use very small pebbles like you can get for landscaping but
I wanted to check in with you guys first.

TIA

JB

"JB" wrote in message
m...
Years back I was able to purchase some pond "soil" at Lowe's & Home Dep
ot.
It was made by Scott's, I think. It was ceramic particles actually and
not
soil. It was nice because it did not float or cloud the water and shoul
d
the Koi uproot the plant it was easy enough to scoop into the basket an
d
replant the whatever.

I guess I could use very small pebbles like you can get for landscaping

but I wanted to check in with you guys first.

TIA

JB
======================
My water lilies do best in a heavy clay soil with a Jobe's rose
stick broken in thirds or fourths placed midway in the soil. Then
the soil is covered with and inch or two of gravel. You'll get large
plants full of flowers this way.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

We have a cement bottom on the pond. Our lilies are 1. in pots with
clay, 2. in pots with 2" river rock and 3. loose because they have
jumped. All seem to be thriving. We have not fertilized them. Tough
little things!

Jim

JB wrote:

Years back I was able to purchase some pond "soil" at Lowe's & Home Depot.
It was made by Scott's, I think. It was ceramic particles actually and not
soil. It was nice because it did not float or cloud the water and should the
Koi uproot the plant it was easy enough to scoop into the basket and replant
the whatever.

I guess I could use very small pebbles like you can get for landscaping but
I wanted to check in with you guys first.

TIA

JB



I've found the best and cheapest medium is generic un-oderized cat litter.
It's 100% clay. Make sure you wash it first to get rid of the dust.

San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Koi, Goldfish, and RES named Colombo.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:22:38 EDT, "JB" wrote:

Years back I was able to purchase some pond "soil" at Lowe's & Home Depot.
It was made by Scott's, I think. It was ceramic particles actually and not
soil. It was nice because it did not float or cloud the water and should the
Koi uproot the plant it was easy enough to scoop into the basket and replant
the whatever.

I guess I could use very small pebbles like you can get for landscaping but
I wanted to check in with you guys first.
JB

One of the problems will small pebbles, koi/goldfish can get them stuck in
their mouth. Whatever choice of medium, cover it will larger rocks so they
can't do that.

I personally use my sandy soil, as I like to fertilize my flowering plants,
cannas & lilies mostly. Not a good idea to do that using pebbles. Too much
flow thru and thus leaching. When it comes to iris, I use big rocks just to
keep them steady and upright in the basket. I use those "throw-tabs" on
them. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

"Jim and Phyllis" wrote in message
...
We have a cement bottom on the pond. Our lilies are 1. in pots with
clay, 2. in pots with 2" river rock and 3. loose because they have
jumped. All seem to be thriving. We have not fertilized them. Tough
little things!

Jim

=====================
When I tried gravel and kitty litter all I got were leaves and very
few flowers. The dense clay soil I believe, holds the Fertilizer in plac
e
so the roots can get it before it leeches out as it would in gravel or
litter.
Anyway, that was my experience with water lilies. YMMV. ;-)

Now I'll leave them to jump the pots. I really don't care what they do. I
'm
not hauling them out again to repot as in years past.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 10:14:18 EDT, Jim and Phyllis
wrote:

We have a cement bottom on the pond. Our lilies are 1. in pots with
clay, 2. in pots with 2" river rock and 3. loose because they have
jumped. All seem to be thriving. We have not fertilized them. Tough
little things!

I'm a bit jealous of you guys who have lots of room and plenty of
plants and get good results without fertilizer. My space and number
of plants is more limited and I try to raise a more prolific plant by
selecting the best media and fertilizer that gives more blooms per
plant. I found best performance for me was obtained with garden soil
(Dug from a nearby flower bed.) covered in stones the fish couldn't
move and fertilized with a higher phosphorous number than the nitrogen
or potash, such as a 1-2-1 type, (6-12-6 or 15-30-15) the easiest
fertilizer is the once a year type and the one I use now is a 12-20-8
and it works well and I only have to fertilize lilies once a year.
--
Hal Middle Georgia, Zone 8
http://tinyurl.com/2fxzcb

I'm getting more and more grateful as I hear about the struggle others
are having!

We do add potash in the summer for the pond.

Jim

Hi JB,
It will make a considerable difference, knowing what the variety of waterlily is like.
If anything, some waterlilies might better be planted so they are restrained, large aggressive growing varieties with poor leaf to bloom ratios are likely to romp all over the place with just a rock placed on them, the roots produced in self protecting masses so harsh root grazing hardly matters.

Wherever an odorata hybrid might be planted, its quickly going someplace else

A caveat, some waterlilies are robust enough to cope with planting any old whooo, others, are not.

Others need a bit of coddling and will not respond at all well to root grazing especially the Marliacs which like their roots to be very well established before they go into prolific blooming cycle

The current water quality may be a factor, if the pond is filtered heavily and low in minerals, making the pot and its soil accessible for regular nudges of fertiliser would be a priority, choosing a potting media which helps to retain fertilisers

If the pond is normally very fertile with heavy algae blooms, heavy handed fertilising might be very regrettable

If your pond is subject to very volatile swings in temperature, time release fertilisers may go from doing nothing when the roots need to develop in the cool months, to scorching delicate root tips when the more soluble corrosive chemicals are released following rapid temperature swings

A big volume pond that has very stable temperature fluctuations is where lilies can give off their best, a 'hot' mix, similar to Perry's recipes might push a coarse variety into a nasty riot of foliage and growth, while a sedate Marliac would be perfect sight... The coarse variety might better have been planted with a very very lean mix and turned out to be a far more pleasant option

Reference for Perry's 'showpiece' recipe:

A lot of fellow water gardeners have asked
what I do to get large lily pads with five to seven
blooms on each plant. I tribute this to an article I read
by Perry D. Slocum in the March 1997 edition of the
Water Garden Magazine. Perry’s article briefly
covered different recipes they had used over the
years on their display gardens. He gave a detailed
recipe of “How to grow the biggest blooms” after
many years of experimentation.
Perry’s tub measured 23” across x 12” deep.
The tubs I use are 17” across x 8” deep so the
quantity of materials was slightly altered. I also used
Fertiloam 9-13-7 New Law Fertilizer instead of the
Miracle Grow 10-20-15 from Perry’s recipe.
Starting at the bottom of the tub, I use the following
steps:
1. 1” of mostly clay soil finely tilled. A little sand is
okay.
2. 1” of composted (bagged) cow manure mixed
with the soil from step 1.
3. 2/3 cup of bone meal spread around the outside
perimeter of the tub, on top of the manure and
soil mix.
4. Using a 3 lb. coffee can, mix one can of tilled
clay soil and one can of composted cow manure
in a separate container. Spread the mixture on
top of steps 1-2-3 in the tub without disturbing
the bone meal placement.
5. 3 Tablespoons of Fertiloam New Lawn Fertilizer
9-13-7 spread evenly over the top of steps 1-2-3-
4.
6. 5 Pondtabs 10-14-8 (planttabs Aquatic plant
food). Use a wooden dowel or small broomstick
to push the tabs to the bottom, spaced evenly
around the outer perimeter of the tub. Pack the
hole tightly with clay.
7. 1” of finely tilled clay on top of steps 1-2-3-4-5-6.
8. One Hardy Lily rhizome of your choice. Make
sure you wash off any soil from the previous pot,
coat any cuts or division with an anti-fungal
powder. Trim off excess roots. Plant the rhizome
in the container and firm down soil and rhizome
firmly.
9. 1” of pea gravel pressed firmly over the mix and
rhizome. Place a stone or half brick over the
rhizome or it will float out. Water heavily with
pond water before placing your plant in the
water. Firm it again. This will help to keep it from
floating out of the unsettled mix

Reference for Marliac varieties:
Cultivation notes, direct from the horses mouth, so to speak:

'A depth of 2 feet is enough for the tanks. A bed of earth 6 inches deep on the bottom of lie basins will be sufficient for the culture of Water Lilies. It ought to be as free as possible from gravel and stones. The best kind of earth is heavyish loam from the garden or meadow, but earth composed of leaf-mould and alluvial soil is also very suitable. One can also make a mixture of them, but it is better not to put with them any fresh manure which is still undergoing fermentation.'
-Marliac

(Bear in mind Marliac was not a fishy keeper, he may not have given a hoot about the priority of topping the loam with stones, needless to say, in those days fertilisers were largely the exclusive monopoly of four legged manufacturers rather than industrial conglomerates)

Regards, andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

I've tried the Scotts before, along with the kitty litter, etc. but I have
found this to work best for me with my lilies and pickerel rush. I put
these plants in a pot and place enough small rocks on top to keep the plant
roots from floating up and out of the pot. The roots thrive on the
nutrients in my pond water with no fertilizer added like you have to do with
planting medium. When I clean my pond in the spring, I pull the pots out
and create new pots of plants, if needed, by breaking the root bases apart
and starting the process over again. Good luck!

"JB" wrote in message
m...
Years back I was able to purchase some pond "soil" at Lowe's & Home Depot.
It was made by Scott's, I think. It was ceramic particles actually and not
soil. It was nice because it did not float or cloud the water and should
the Koi uproot the plant it was easy enough to scoop into the basket and
replant the whatever.

I guess I could use very small pebbles like you can get for landscaping
but I wanted to check in with you guys first.

TIA

JB

Thanks to all for the replies. I think I'll just go with small pebbles. From
what I understand, the main purpose is to hold the plant down. It will get
all the nutrients it needs from the water. I was surprised at the number of
folks that fertilize their plants. I'd read in one of Helen Nash's books
that this was not needed and would tend to encourage algae bloom.

Do most of you "fertilizers" have a UV filter on your pond? Just curious. I
don't and go through a healthy algae bloom each spring for a few weeks. Keep
telling myself that I'm going to get a UV but haven't yet and I've been
doing this for 11 years now.

JB


"popegw" wrote in message
...
I've tried the Scotts before, along with the kitty litter, etc. but I have
found this to work best for me with my lilies and pickerel rush. I put
these plants in a pot and place enough small rocks on top to keep the
plant roots from floating up and out of the pot. The roots thrive on the
nutrients in my pond water with no fertilizer added like you have to do
with planting medium. When I clean my pond in the spring, I pull the pots
out and create new pots of plants, if needed, by breaking the root bases
apart and starting the process over again. Good luck!

"JB" wrote in message
m...
Years back I was able to purchase some pond "soil" at Lowe's & Home
Depot. It was made by Scott's, I think. It was ceramic particles actually
and not soil. It was nice because it did not float or cloud the water and
should the Koi uproot the plant it was easy enough to scoop into the
basket and replant the whatever.

I guess I could use very small pebbles like you can get for landscaping
but I wanted to check in with you guys first.

TIA

JB

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:37:43 EDT, "JB" wrote:

Thanks to all for the replies. I think I'll just go with small pebbles. From
what I understand, the main purpose is to hold the plant down. It will get
all the nutrients it needs from the water. I was surprised at the number of
folks that fertilize their plants. I'd read in one of Helen Nash's books
that this was not needed and would tend to encourage algae bloom.

Do most of you "fertilizers" have a UV filter on your pond? Just curious. I
don't and go through a healthy algae bloom each spring for a few weeks. Keep
telling myself that I'm going to get a UV but haven't yet and I've been
doing this for 11 years now.

JB

No UV, no spring greenies here. Do you have a bio-filter? Do you do
frequent water change outs? How many fish?

I feed my lilies, lotus & cannas to get more flowers. The cannas only get
the tabs when I divide unless they're doing poorly. Usually they're so
vigorous I can't get a tab in after 2-3 months of growing time. Soil/clay
binds the chemical in fertilizers that algae loves to eat, I believe that
is the phosphate. I no longer have enough fish to rely on them keeping the
plants fed, especially in the lily pond. I once had 27 koi in koi ponds
when I first started out, I'm at 9 now and plan to keep it that way, or
even reduce that number depending on koi growth. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

I was surprised at the number of
folks that fertilize their plants. I'd read in one of Helen Nash's books
that this was not needed and would tend to encourage algae bloom.

By and large Helen nash is spot on, in a well proprtioned pond with well chosen plants. But, one size may not fit quite all

Some folk have ponds crowded with plants, where waterlilies struggle to compete for fertility, its logical and effective to squeeze a tomato spike close to the roots of preferred plants, to slow release the feed to the plant that needs perking up

In hot climates with a long Summer, fertility levels may need a perk, tropical waterlilies are supposedly greedy feeders, though I suspect more than a few varieties are just plain poor performers in continental heat if you have to push them hard.

Alas, commercial growers often dump shoddy fickle plants on the market with a couldn't care less, the sooner the customer kills them, the sooner they buy another one attitude, 'flash in the pan' new introductions, where plants with abysmal cultivation information are fobbed off for top dollar

Some folk filter their ponds to an extent where fertility levels are non existent, which is sort of counter productive and sterile, as fish are well able to cope with modest levels of fertility and benign bacteria, I do wonder that sterile 'clean' ponds are sitting ducks for infection and disease which find it easier to take off in the absence of 'normal' healthy pond organisms (similar to hospitals, where 'super' bacteria get the opportunity to thrive in 'sterile' conditions)

In climates where excessive heat is a factor, fertilising can compound a problem, scorching the roots, pollution, added to the stress the plant is already under. More than a few varieties of waterlily are shy bloomers and go more or less dormant when temps go over 90°f

Some waterlilies, often those dished out dirt cheap on message boards such as americanponders, by folk desperate to get rid of them, are just plain awful varieties. Poor bloom to pad ratios, fast spreading odorata rhisomes... In desperation to get them to bloom some folk will try to apply fertilisers to what are less than mediocre plants dumped at the bottom end of the market.

Some folk have crown rot infected ponds. It would come as no surprise if folk in desperation tried to shovel fertiliser into ponds to try to get them to grow

Incompetent cultivation information is quite often the source of ill fated cess pit 'fertilising' regimes. By folk who hardly have a pond or a garden to call their own

Its not unknown for ranting self professed 'professional artists - photographers - landscape artists - gurus' aka scamsters with not a relevant qualification to their name, abundant displays of ADD, abuse and psychotic disorders to present some half baked witchbrew recipe as the be all and end all, one size fits all of potting recipes... on the strength they once saw a grotty variety like Colorado growing rampant in someone else's pond (after having killed everything else they tried)

Regards,andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

~jan,

I have a bio/mechanical filterfalls and do some water changes but not nearly
as frequent as I did years back with a smaller pond. I have 5 Koi, 3 that
I've had since 1998 and are about 24 inches long and weigh several pounds,
and around 25+ different types of goldfish in my 3,000 gallon pond. I turn
the water over once an hour through the filter.


"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:37:43 EDT, "JB" wrote:

Thanks to all for the replies. I think I'll just go with small pebbles.
From
what I understand, the main purpose is to hold the plant down. It will get
all the nutrients it needs from the water. I was surprised at the number
of
folks that fertilize their plants. I'd read in one of Helen Nash's books
that this was not needed and would tend to encourage algae bloom.

Do most of you "fertilizers" have a UV filter on your pond? Just curious.
I
don't and go through a healthy algae bloom each spring for a few weeks.
Keep
telling myself that I'm going to get a UV but haven't yet and I've been
doing this for 11 years now.

JB

No UV, no spring greenies here. Do you have a bio-filter? Do you do
frequent water change outs? How many fish?

I feed my lilies, lotus & cannas to get more flowers. The cannas only get
the tabs when I divide unless they're doing poorly. Usually they're so
vigorous I can't get a tab in after 2-3 months of growing time. Soil/clay
binds the chemical in fertilizers that algae loves to eat, I believe that
is the phosphate. I no longer have enough fish to rely on them keeping the
plants fed, especially in the lily pond. I once had 27 koi in koi ponds
when I first started out, I'm at 9 now and plan to keep it that way, or
even reduce that number depending on koi growth. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:39:09 EDT, "JB" wrote:

~jan,

I have a bio/mechanical filterfalls and do some water changes but not nearly
as frequent as I did years back with a smaller pond. I have 5 Koi, 3 that
I've had since 1998 and are about 24 inches long and weigh several pounds,
and around 25+ different types of goldfish in my 3,000 gallon pond. I turn
the water over once an hour through the filter.

If you're not too attached to the goldfish, you might want to get rid of
the majority of those, might help your spring greenies. Since I started
weekly water changes of 20+% my water quality has been amazing. I wish
though I could set up a flow thru system like many ponders have locally.
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us