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Old 28-10-2010, 01:33 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default New pond question

I am making a new pond and thinking of using bentonite to seal it. Was
wondering if anyone here could give some advice from direct
experience. The soil at the bottom of this pond is heavy clay so I am
guessing I won't need a whole lot of the bentonite.

I'd like to know exactly what one does with the stuff when applying
it. Do you just spread it out dry, or do you make it into a paste to
apply it? If you spread it dry, what keeps it from falling down the
sloping sides of the pond into the bottom?

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Old 30-10-2010, 03:49 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Chris Hogg wrote:
Pat wrote:

I am making a new pond and thinking of using bentonite to seal it. Was
wondering if anyone here could give some advice from direct
experience. The soil at the bottom of this pond is heavy clay so I am
guessing I won't need a whole lot of the bentonite.


I'd like to know exactly what one does with the stuff when applying
it. Do you just spread it out dry, or do you make it into a paste to
apply it? If you spread it dry, what keeps it from falling down the
sloping sides of the pond into the bottom?


Google for bentonite clay pond liner. Lots of references. The
following link suggests 'For the discreet compacted clay liner, 4-8
inches of the product is compacted over the area of the pond prior to
filling'.http://tinyurl.com/399wb32

I've always assumed it's thickly applied as a heavy plastic paste and
beaten or rammed down to ensure a good seal between adjacent lumps of
clay. A lot of work, and lorry-loads of bentonite I would think,
depending on the size of your pond.

--


I did the google thing prior to sending the OP, but couldn't find any
info on whether or not to wet the bentonite before applying to the
lining of the pond.

As to lorry-loads, a local feed supply store sells bentonite by the
#50 sack, thus I was assuming a little goes a long way?



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Old 31-10-2010, 03:12 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default New pond question

Chris Hogg wrote:
Pat wrote:

I did the google thing prior to sending the OP, but couldn't find any
info on whether or not to wet the bentonite before applying to the
lining of the pond.


When bentonite is dug/mined from the ground it's moist and plastic.
For most ponds, it would be used in this condition, with no
intermediate drying, which is probably why you didn't find anything on
using it dry: no-one does.

As to lorry-loads, a local feed supply store sells bentonite by the
#50 sack, thus I was assuming a little goes a long way?


I assume this stuff is dry powder or granules. You would have to wet
it down to a stiff plastic paste, and then trowel/shovel/spread it
onto the pond floor and sides to give a layer at least 2 inches thick
I should think (rather than the 4 to 8 inches suggested in the link I
gave you), given you're on heavy clay anyway. Then you'll have to
tread or ram it down to make sure it's all compacted and sealed. That
is a lot of work. What area is your pond?


Wetting the bentonite will be a difficult job; it's fiendishly sticky
and intractable when wet and plastic. A potential problem with
bentonite lined ponds is that if they dry a bit in the summer, and the
bentonite layer gets exposed, it tends to shrink a lot and it cracks,
meaning you've got to reseal it again to keep it watertight.

But if you're on heavy clay, it would be worth just digging your pond
and filling it with water to see if you actually need bentonite. You
may find that it holds water OK and you don't need it. It would save
you a lot of messy work.

As you may gather, I'm trying to dissuade you from going down the
bentonite route. I've never lined a pond with bentonite, but I do know
a little about what it's like when moist and plastic.



Yes, it's powdered. The pond is not very big, about 12' x 12'. And the
ponds in this area do tend to go dry due to leakage, even with the red
clay base. So I want to seal this one.

I was thinking maybe we could spread a thinnish layer of the powder
over the damp existing clay, and hopefully it would cling even on the
sloped area. Then spray it with a fine mist to wet it and then trowel
it smooth? And then maybe spray it a bit more and then add another
layer, spray it again and trowel it smooth?

I can't imagine why you want to discourage my use of bentonite, since
you won't be the one doing the work (unless of course you'd *like* to
volunteer, you'll be welcome....) unless perhaps you're thinking it
would end up being more costly than buying a rubber liner? My
principle aim is to spend less money whilst still accomplishing the
goal.

Many thanks for your info, by the way.

Anyone else care to chime in?



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Old 01-11-2010, 12:53 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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On Sat, 30 Oct 2010 22:12:45 EDT, Pat wrote:

Yes, it's powdered. The pond is not very big, about 12' x 12'.


Are you hoping for a clear water pond? Koi mud ponds use clay for good
growth of the koi, but the water is usually murky brownish green. Koi &
even goldfish fish love to dig in clay for the aquatic critters that live
in it. Thus you can rarely see them. Now if you're just going to grow
lilies or something... ? What are your plans for filtration?

12x12, you'd be better off with a rubber liner if you want clear water.
~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 03-11-2010, 12:33 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default New pond question

~ jan wrote:

Are you hoping for a clear water pond? Koi mud ponds use clay for good
growth of the koi, but the water is usually murky brownish green. Koi &
even goldfish fish love to dig in clay for the aquatic critters that live
in it. Thus you can rarely see them. Now if you're just going to grow
lilies or something... ? What are your plans for filtration?

12x12, you'd be better off with a rubber liner if you want clear water.


Yes, I want clear water. I was unaware that bentonite would make the
water murky. I suspected it might, but was not sure. I wasn't planning
on koi or goldfish, but perhaps some kind of small fish that we could
catch and eat, and plants, too. There will be the usual filtration
setup. If I can have clear water with tilapia, crappie and minnows, or
something like that, and still use bentonite, and if bentonite is
considerably less expensive than a rubber liner, I'd still like to use
it. What do you think?




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Old 06-11-2010, 01:55 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 07:33:50 EDT, Pat wrote:

~ jan wrote:

Are you hoping for a clear water pond? Koi mud ponds use clay for good
growth of the koi, but the water is usually murky brownish green. Koi &
even goldfish fish love to dig in clay for the aquatic critters that live
in it. Thus you can rarely see them. Now if you're just going to grow
lilies or something... ? What are your plans for filtration?

12x12, you'd be better off with a rubber liner if you want clear water.


Yes, I want clear water. I was unaware that bentonite would make the
water murky. I suspected it might, but was not sure. I wasn't planning
on koi or goldfish, but perhaps some kind of small fish that we could
catch and eat, and plants, too. There will be the usual filtration
setup. If I can have clear water with tilapia, crappie and minnows, or
something like that, and still use bentonite, and if bentonite is
considerably less expensive than a rubber liner, I'd still like to use
it. What do you think?

Well....... how many feet deep were you planning? Most clay ponds have
gradual sloping sides. 12 X 12 isn't going to give you very many gallons.
By the time anything is big enough to eat, you'll be attached to it... but
I could be very wrong.

If not having fish that dig, clay should be more do-able. Have you priced
liner though? That are several different types out there... but I haven't
priced liner in years. Sorry. Anyone else? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 07-11-2010, 04:00 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default New pond question

On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 12:01:49 EDT, Janet wrote:

Following advice here, we recently bought and installed 1 mm thick
EPDM rubber liner, cost was around £5 UKpounds per square metre (plus

a half price deal on the protective liner to go underneath it). Thanks
to all for your help :-)

It was very easy to fit and the dog hasn't even tried to get in the
pond. When the pond had settled down I put in the three goldfish
whose need for a larger home inspired the pond. For the first day they
swam in circles the size of their previous home but have now taken over
the entire space. In just three weeks despite chilly weather they have
noticeably grown. Can't decide if that's because of the extra excercise
they get now or happiness and less stress.

Janet (Scotland)


Hi Janet, That is good news. I do wonder how many ponds are inspired by the
goldfish bowl?

And btw, anyone who can keep a goldfish alive in a small bowl for more than
a month is going to be a "great" pond keeper! :-) ~ jan

------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

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Old 07-11-2010, 04:00 AM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Default New pond question

~ jan wrote:
Pat wrote:
~ jan wrote:


Are you hoping for a clear water pond? Koi mud ponds use clay for good
growth of the koi, but the water is usually murky brownish green. Koi &
even goldfish fish love to dig in clay for the aquatic critters that live
in it. Thus you can rarely see them. Now if you're just going to grow
lilies or something... ? What are your plans for filtration?


12x12, you'd be better off with a rubber liner if you want clear water.


Yes, I want clear water. I was unaware that bentonite would make the
water murky. I suspected it might, but was not sure. I wasn't planning
on koi or goldfish, but perhaps some kind of small fish that we could
catch and eat, and plants, too. There will be the usual filtration
setup. If I can have clear water with tilapia, crappie and minnows, or
something like that, and still use bentonite, and if bentonite is
considerably less expensive than a rubber liner, I'd still like to use
it. What do you think?


Well....... how many feet deep were you planning? Most clay ponds have
gradual sloping sides. 12 X 12 isn't going to give you very many gallons.
By the time anything is big enough to eat, you'll be attached to it... but
I could be very wrong.


It will be 3' or so in the center, with a shallow zone about 1.5-2'
wide at the edges, then gradually sloping to the deepest part.

I will be attached to the idea of eating the fish, I hope!

If not having fish that dig, clay should be more do-able. Have you priced
liner though?


No, not yet. I hope there are winter sales going on, or soon. Still
hoping bentonite will work and be a good bit less costly.

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Old 08-11-2010, 01:44 PM posted to rec.ponds.moderated
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Chris Hogg wrote:

It may help to keep the water clear if you add a handful or two of
ground or powdered limestone to the pond from time to time, to help
settle any bentonite in suspension, especially if the bentonite you're
proposing to use is from Wyoming. With some calcium dissolved in the
water from the limestone, the clay particles will clump together more
readily and settle quicker; the technical term is 'flocculation'.


Our water is so hard here, it might even have enough calcium in it
already, but this is good to know!

Another thought, some processed bentonites are 'soda-activated' which,
apart from making them much stickier, also makes them quite strongly
alkaline, rather like fresh cement. This will harm and probably kill
any fish or plants you introduce unless it's neutralised, and I'm not
sure how you'd do that after it's spread on the bottom of the pond, or
even before you spread it, come to that. Check that it's not
soda-activated before you buy.


The kind sold here is especially for ponds so it should be OK. But I
will file the info to be certain!

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