In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:

I'm not tellig you what you want or what is desirable, I'm just
telling you how things work since you had the mistaken belief
that "plants get all they need from fish waste", that's all.

There's nothing mistaken about it. My _lilies_ get more than sufficient
nutrients when kept bare root (I never once suggested _all_ plants, and in
fact have had trouble with Hyacinths specifically _because_ they can't get
everything they need in my pond, without additives). Please don't use
quotes when you're not quoting.

I was quoting Innes' 1904 work. It's just coincidnece it's the same
as what you said. If you believe your plants are geting 100% of what
they need go read _The Optimum Aquarium_ by Horst and Kipper, they
explain the difference between the water where plants grow and tapwater
and water used to cuylrute fished and plants, what the deficiences arem
how they get used up and how to replenish them.

I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
"plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
quite mistaken.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:
Do you think scattering the Ironite over the thick groups of pond plants
would do the trick? It has to dissolve in the water..... They encircle 2
1/2 sides of my pond and have all grown together into one monster clump.

You already dose iron in your tanks right? This is no differ
=======================
I'm talking about my outdoor ponds, not my aquariums.

Yeah I got that. Water is water. The size and shape of the container
doesn't matter.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Moss is my secret weopan. Any tank with moss has a hard time growing
alage. I've
experiemented with all sorts of plants tryiong to keep betta jars cleanm
longer
and noting works like moss. I suspect if you threw a garbage bag of the
stuff
into a pond it owuld have a dramatic effect of water clarity. It sure
works
that way in aquaria.

In Asis the moss that grows around ponds is the stuff we grow in
fishtanks. It
even grows in lawns there.
======================
Are you talking about what we call Java Moss? It grows here on rocks in the
woods, damp driftwood by the lake in water itself. I believe this is all
the same plant.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...

I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
"plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
quite mistaken.
====================
He may have some unusual conditions in his pond. I can't even get water
lilies to grow and bloom in a fine gravel. I have to use soil and
fertilizer spikes if I want nice large leaves and lots of blooms. Other
pond plants do well enough in fine gravel alone.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 04:18:57 +0000 (UTC), (Richard Sexton) wrote:

The first question I'd ask is what is causing the pH to get thaty high. It
may be the chemical making the ph change that's thwe problem not the pH itself.

Exactly! That's why you don't give out the fix-it info, till you get all
the info about the pond from the person with the problem. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

Richard Sexton wrote:

I understand if you're doing ok you can't imagine you're doing anything
wrong and if you're happy with yout plant growth, great. But the idea
"plants get all th enutrients they need from fish" is true you are
quite mistaken.

Except I _still_ didn't say that, and even though I asked nicely, you're
still using quotes to have me saying something I neither said nor believed.

I said _my_ lilies got all the nutrients they needed from my pond. It may
only be because my water supply had all the traces they needed, too. I
also said my water hyacinth did _not_ get all the nutrients they needed
from my pond.

What I _will_ say as a blanket statement is that, in a fish pond, lilies can
get all the nitrogen they need from fish. I'm well aware that plants need
more than nitrogen. If your plants don't do well enough bare-root, then
the answer is still not to plant in compost. Plant lilies in clay - then
you can use fertilizer spikes without most of the nutrients migrating into
the water.
--
derek

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
I said _my_ lilies got all the nutrients they needed from my pond. It may
only be because my water supply had all the traces they needed, too. I
also said my water hyacinth did _not_ get all the nutrients they needed
from my pond.

What I _will_ say as a blanket statement is that, in a fish pond, lilies can
get all the nitrogen they need from fish. I'm well aware that plants need
more than nitrogen. If your plants don't do well enough bare-root, then
the answer is still not to plant in compost. Plant lilies in clay - then
you can use fertilizer spikes without most of the nutrients migrating into
the water.

Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
guessing, not stating objective fact.

Your opinion is just that and should not be passed off as factually
correct.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Moss is my secret weopan. Any tank with moss has a hard time growing
alage. I've
experiemented with all sorts of plants tryiong to keep betta jars cleanm
longer
and noting works like moss. I suspect if you threw a garbage bag of the
stuff
into a pond it owuld have a dramatic effect of water clarity. It sure
works
that way in aquaria.

In Asis the moss that grows around ponds is the stuff we grow in
fishtanks. It
even grows in lawns there.
======================
Are you talking about what we call Java Moss? It grows here on rocks in the
woods, damp driftwood by the lake in water itself. I believe this is all
the same plant.

Nah, the stuff that grows in lawns and around ponds in Singapore is
"xmas moss". There's about 17 common aquatic mosses and while java moss
is the oldest kept in tanks and the most common, it's not the most common
one found in Singapore gardens. But any of them will work.

I have on tank four feet long with a three foot clump of this stuff
and if I'm lax about water changes and fertilizer then it grows alage
but only where moss isn't close. The tank is utterly stuffed with
plants.

I'm not suggesting moss inhibits alage but that it's a very efficient
consumer of nutrients, probably due to the massive surface area all those
zillions of tiny leaves have.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton wrote:

Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
guessing, not stating objective fact.

How is "more vigorous growth" an indicator of anything? Gardeners
frequently don't _want_ vegetative growth. Especially with lilies: we want
blooms. Considering I've had dozens of blooms off a single lily _at one
time_ I think it's pretty safe to say I've been doing it right.

Your opinion is just that and should not be passed off as factually
correct.

My opinion is that years of water gardening experience has proven that
bare-root planting of some species works. In many cases, for many reasons,
better than alternatives. Your _opinion_ would seem to be that if you're
not getting the absolute maximum growth out of your plants, you're doing
something wrong.

Your _opinion_ is only "factually correct" under limited conditions - like
no fish in the pond, and you'd rather see lily pads than flowers. Most
water gardeners consider it a failure when they get lots of growth and few
blooms. A failure, I might add, that is commonly caused not by
fertilization or lack of it, but by getting dirt on the crown - which can't
happen when you plant bare-root.

We all have different preferred ways of doing things, and there's plenty of
disagreement in this group, but there's no need to come in here and start
telling us you have all the right answers.
--
derek

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I'm not suggesting moss inhibits alage but that it's a very efficient
consumer of nutrients, probably due to the massive surface area all those
zillions of tiny leaves have.
======================
Come to think of it,...it's the tanks with a good size ball of Java moss
that don't have any serious algae problems. I think I'll add a larger
amount to the tanks that did have a problem.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:

Your plants may grow just swell, but that's not the same as "they
get everything they neeed". You can prove this by fertilizing them
and observing more and more vigorous growth. Until then you're just
guessing, not stating objective fact.

How is "more vigorous growth" an indicator of anything? Gardeners
frequently don't _want_ vegetative growth. Especially with lilies: we want
blooms.

Then maintain an optimal pjhosphate level. All fishfood contains
pjhosphate and fish will excrete that, but if it's not at an optimal
level you won't get optimal blooms.

better than alternatives. Your _opinion_ would seem to be that if you're
not getting the absolute maximum growth out of your plants, you're doing
something wrong.

That is to say if you're stunting your plants you're doing right?

The bigger the root the bigger the bloom.

Your _opinion_ is only "factually correct" under limited conditions - like
no fish in the pond, and you'd rather see lily pads than flowers.

I neevr said this. Ever.

disagreement in this group, but there's no need to come in here and start
telling us you have all the right answers.

Enjoy your Bonsai.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I'm not suggesting moss inhibits alage but that it's a very efficient
consumer of nutrients, probably due to the massive surface area all those
zillions of tiny leaves have.
======================
Come to think of it,...it's the tanks with a good size ball of Java moss
that don't have any serious algae problems. I think I'll add a larger
amount to the tanks that did have a problem.

Yupper. This is not to say if you have lots of moss you'll never get
alage, but based on experiemtns with betta bowls and various plants
you'd have to ignore them for about 3 months to grow alage and moss.

Any other plant, java fern, crypts, lucky bamboo, you get it in about
3 weeks of zero maintenance.

Plus java moss (or any other moss, xmas moss, taiwan moss, creeping,
weeping or what have you moss) plays host to countless protozoans
to the point where you can have, for example, a self sustaining
colony of half a dozen pairs of (small) killifish in a 20 gal tank,
with a tight fitting cover, and it will not require any food to be added.

I did this for two years and fish bred, came and went, with no food added.
The poor things died when I was away on a business trip because the light
timer failed - I came back to a crystal clear empty tank; when I left it
was packed with moss and fish.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Richard Sexton wrote:

Enjoy your Bonsai.

To an extent, all gardening is bonsai - you're growing things in restricted
spaces.

In a pond with 225 sq.ft. of surface, I would get _one_ lily covering over
100 sq.ft. of it. It's all the success I can handle.
--
derek

Derek Broughton wrote:
there's no need to come in here and start
telling us you have all the right answers.

I didn't get that impression. Looked like a lively discussion. No wonder RP
crashes and burns so easily these days. If we cop such attitude when
someone new joins, RP is in serious trouble (as if we aren't already).
~ jan
~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

In article ,
Derek Broughton wrote:
Richard Sexton wrote:

Enjoy your Bonsai.

To an extent, all gardening is bonsai - you're growing things in restricted
spaces.

In a pond with 225 sq.ft. of surface, I would get _one_ lily covering over
100 sq.ft. of it. It's all the success I can handle.

Then you have no need or optimal plant growth. But there are people that
are. Your advice is good for you, but people who have problems growing
plants, or growing plants well enough for them may benefit from knowing
how to achieve that.




--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net