I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a bead filter for my 8500 gal pond.
I'm looking at Aquadyne, Challenger 60 by Fluidart, and also Aquabead.
Wondering if anyone has experience with any of these? Would appreciate all
opinions.
thanks,
tony

I use a veggie filter with lava rocks, It seems to do better then the
bead filters. At least in my pond.


http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

Thanks, Joe. Guess I should have been a bit more specific. I'm looking to
get away from all that work of cleaning the filter and the muck. I was in a
car accident a while ago and am still on the mend with a long way to go.
Need to make things easier for me. thanks for your reply
"REBEL JOE" wrote in message
...
I use a veggie filter with lava rocks, It seems to do better then the
bead filters. At least in my pond.


http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

I don't have experience with any of the ones you mentioned, but I have an
Ultima II hooked up in my system. I believe that all bead filters have
similar requirements that cannot be ignored, so be advised in advance: in
order to work at their optimum, your KH must be 200 or more. That's easily
done with baking soda, which also works to ensure a completely, rock-solid
pH. Also, you should have a 2 speed pump: you run your filter normally at
the low speed, but when you backflush, you need the WHAM! of the high speed
to knock everything out. I only have a one-speed pump; if there was any way
I could justify the purchase of a 2 speed at this point in time, I would. In
order to clean my filter properly, I have to go "backflush/rinse" at least 3
or 4 times. Every time the water looks like its finally running clear in
backflush, I find that it's a far cry from clear on the second (or third)
round. The 2-speed pump would take care of that. On the flip side though, by
the time I finally get it clean, it's the same amount of water I'd have to
remove for my 10-15% weekly water change, anyway!

Good luck with your choice.
Lee


"Tony & Diane VonNeida" wrote in message
. ..
I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a bead filter for my 8500 gal pond.
I'm looking at Aquadyne, Challenger 60 by Fluidart, and also Aquabead.
Wondering if anyone has experience with any of these? Would appreciate
all
opinions.
thanks,
tony

Tony,

I have a BBF-2 on my 4000 gallon pond. The filter worked fine the first 2
years, but as the pond pigs grew, there was more and more solids generated.
The filter removed them, but it became harder to do a good backwash. I
ended up putting in a vortex separator ahead of the pump to collect many of
the solids, so that they would not go to the bead filter. I am going to
step up this year, I hope, to a six cubic foot bead filter, since my fish
load now weighs in at close to 200 pounds of fish. I recommend going up in
size to at least double what the manufacturer states is the right size for a
pond of X gallons. Their recommendations might work on a pond with few
fish. Also get one with the blower for backwash cycle. It really improves
the backwash, with a big reduction in the amount of water required, or the
HP of the pump.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Tony & Diane VonNeida" wrote in message
. ..
I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a bead filter for my 8500 gal pond.
I'm looking at Aquadyne, Challenger 60 by Fluidart, and also Aquabead.
Wondering if anyone has experience with any of these? Would appreciate
all
opinions.
thanks,
tony

I have an Aquabead filter. So far I am very happy with it. Works
best if you have the waste line hooked up to the sewer or some other
place where you can dump 100 gallons of water at a flow rate 3-5 times
greater than a full-on garden hose. The air agitator is a must on any
brand that you get. As with any filter I agree that you should always
buy a filter with a much higher rating than you need. I can clean my
filter in only 5 minutes with no fuss or mess. Takes another 15
minutes to add the 100 gallons used in the cleaning process back into
the pond and to clean the leaf traps.

Cheers
Dave

I have been using the Aquadyne BF, with blower (for backwash) for 2 seasons.
Pump is only a 1/2 hp submersible in my skimmer, and it works great. Without
a blower you need a more expensive 2 speed pump.
The BF works super, and supports a high fish load.
No issues with maintenance. It's very quick and easy.
I eliminated my other filters.
Now I have the skimmer feeding the BF going to a falls.
My bottom drain goes via a dragon pump to a stream (which functions
essentially as trickle filter, based on it's design), that dumps into a bog
garden, then back into the Koi pond.
The only thing I have against BFs is their outrageous pricing. They are not
that much more complex than simple sand filters for pools (yes there is some
re-engineering), but costs are disproportionately high.
That being said, I would never go back to the previous
vortex/mechanical/biologic setup I had in the past.
Both systems get the job done, WHEN PROPERLY SETUP, but the BF involves much
less maintenance.
Happy ponding,
Greg


"Dave" wrote in message
om...
I have an Aquabead filter. So far I am very happy with it. Works
best if you have the waste line hooked up to the sewer or some other
place where you can dump 100 gallons of water at a flow rate 3-5 times
greater than a full-on garden hose. The air agitator is a must on any
brand that you get. As with any filter I agree that you should always
buy a filter with a much higher rating than you need. I can clean my
filter in only 5 minutes with no fuss or mess. Takes another 15
minutes to add the 100 gallons used in the cleaning process back into
the pond and to clean the leaf traps.

Cheers
Dave

I have heard that bead filters are not as wonderful as advertised. They were
originally made for swimming pools for use with chemicals (and sand, not beads) with
no real crud. when used with ponds with fish they get gunked up and eventually
accumulate H2S inside (may take up to 3 years to happen). When backwashed the
outlet is on the bottom, but the gas in on the top and isnt removed unless taken the
whole thing apart. so the H2S starts getting dumped into the water and the first
sign is the fish are piping, lethargic and at heading into the return water. The
beads eventually clump to the point where they are just one big mass.
it isnt a mechanical filter at all, AND the biobugs need a lot of oxygen to function.
since it is closed, only the oxygen in the water is available. that is unlike a
veggie filter or any filter open to the air. Jo Ann can explain what the problem is
better 1-251-649-4790
INgrid


"Tony & Diane VonNeida" wrote:

I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a bead filter for my 8500 gal pond.
I'm looking at Aquadyne, Challenger 60 by Fluidart, and also Aquabead.
Wondering if anyone has experience with any of these? Would appreciate all
opinions.
thanks,
tony

Get one of the little or big sisters then. these filters have outlets for cleaning.
just turn the knob and the muck is drained from the filter. there are brushes in the
prefilter and I think they are just removed and thumped against something to remove
clinging debris. Jo Ann's husband has bad knees and cannot fool around cleaning.
He is the one found these and loves em since he has to take care of 7 or 8 ponds.
1-251-649-4790
Ingrid


"Tony & Diane VonNeida" wrote:
Thanks, Joe. Guess I should have been a bit more specific. I'm looking to
get away from all that work of cleaning the filter and the muck.

Ingrid, it sure would be nice if you would sure of your facts, before
providing such misinformation. It really does impact the credibility of this
NG.
Read my comments below.

wrote in message
...
I have heard that bead filters are not as wonderful as advertised. They
were
originally made for swimming pools for use with chemicals (and sand, not
beads) with
no real crud.

You have "heard"? In a scientific forum, perhaps?
It would appear you may be mixing BF up with similarly appearing sand
filters, which function differently. BF designed for water garden/Koi ponds,
are of a different water flow design from the sand/bead filters offered for
swimming pools.

when used with ponds with fish they get gunked up and eventually
accumulate H2S inside (may take up to 3 years to happen).

Not true. When backwashed, current designed BF flush to the top and out, not
from the bottom. The bottom drain is there for large sediment only.
Backwashing, esp with blowers breaks up the mass, which by the way offers a
huge surface area compared to most other biofilter systems, which is why
they support larger mass of fish/unit volume of water. But you pay for that
in $$.

When backwashed the
outlet is on the bottom, but the gas in on the top and isnt removed unless
taken the
whole thing apart. so the H2S starts getting dumped into the water and
the first
sign is the fish are piping, lethargic and at heading into the return
water. The
beads eventually clump to the point where they are just one big mass.
it isnt a mechanical filter at all, AND the biobugs need a lot of oxygen
to function.
since it is closed, only the oxygen in the water is available.

Again, not true, unless of course you are using a sand filter you modified,
or perhaps an older design of BF, where the flow may allow that to happen.
Modern, well designed BFs don't have that issue.

that is unlike a
veggie filter or any filter open to the air. Jo Ann can explain what the
problem is
better 1-251-649-4790
INgrid

Strange that many of the breeders/maintainersof large Koi ponds, where
there are large fish mass to water ratios, manintain them strictly with BF.

Strange that many of the large Koi dealers use BF (and UV) as only agents to
maintain their heavily stocked Koi holding tanks/vats.

Folks, you can go to the AKCA website (www.akca.org), or to Dr. Eric
Johnson's (www.koivet.com I believe) website, to get accurate information on
the utility of these filters.

Hope that helps address your question Tony..

Happy ponding, and let us know how you make out with your BF,
Greg





"Tony & Diane VonNeida" wrote:

I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a bead filter for my 8500 gal
pond.
I'm looking at Aquadyne, Challenger 60 by Fluidart, and also Aquabead.
Wondering if anyone has experience with any of these? Would appreciate
all
opinions.
thanks,
tony

Good response. I would like to hear from people that went from a
mechanical filter to a bead filter. I have not yet heard anything bad
from any bead filter except the bubble bead filter.

Does anyone out there have a bead filter? If so, how long have to had
it? Have you ever had any problems with it? What is the brand of
your filter? Thx!
Oingofan

On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 17:49:38 GMT, "Gregory Young"
wrote:

Ingrid, it sure would be nice if you would sure of your facts, before
providing such misinformation. It really does impact the credibility of this
NG.
Read my comments below.

wrote in message
...
I have heard that bead filters are not as wonderful as advertised. They
were
originally made for swimming pools for use with chemicals (and sand, not
beads) with
no real crud.

You have "heard"? In a scientific forum, perhaps?
It would appear you may be mixing BF up with similarly appearing sand
filters, which function differently. BF designed for water garden/Koi ponds,
are of a different water flow design from the sand/bead filters offered for
swimming pools.

when used with ponds with fish they get gunked up and eventually
accumulate H2S inside (may take up to 3 years to happen).

Not true. When backwashed, current designed BF flush to the top and out, not
from the bottom. The bottom drain is there for large sediment only.
Backwashing, esp with blowers breaks up the mass, which by the way offers a
huge surface area compared to most other biofilter systems, which is why
they support larger mass of fish/unit volume of water. But you pay for that
in $$.

When backwashed the
outlet is on the bottom, but the gas in on the top and isnt removed unless
taken the
whole thing apart. so the H2S starts getting dumped into the water and
the first
sign is the fish are piping, lethargic and at heading into the return
water. The
beads eventually clump to the point where they are just one big mass.
it isnt a mechanical filter at all, AND the biobugs need a lot of oxygen
to function.
since it is closed, only the oxygen in the water is available.

Again, not true, unless of course you are using a sand filter you modified,
or perhaps an older design of BF, where the flow may allow that to happen.
Modern, well designed BFs don't have that issue.

that is unlike a
veggie filter or any filter open to the air. Jo Ann can explain what the
problem is
better 1-251-649-4790
INgrid

Strange that many of the breeders/maintainersof large Koi ponds, where
there are large fish mass to water ratios, manintain them strictly with BF.

Strange that many of the large Koi dealers use BF (and UV) as only agents to
maintain their heavily stocked Koi holding tanks/vats.

Folks, you can go to the AKCA website (www.akca.org), or to Dr. Eric
Johnson's (www.koivet.com I believe) website, to get accurate information on
the utility of these filters.

Hope that helps address your question Tony..

Happy ponding, and let us know how you make out with your BF,
Greg





"Tony & Diane VonNeida" wrote:

I'm seriously contemplating purchasing a bead filter for my 8500 gal
pond.
I'm looking at Aquadyne, Challenger 60 by Fluidart, and also Aquabead.
Wondering if anyone has experience with any of these? Would appreciate
all
opinions.
thanks,
tony

I am really surprised that you are going into personal attack mode.
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/w...l_attacks.html
Ingrid,
..... A personal attack or assault is not a discussion of facts. It begins with the
attacker clearly identifying the person being attacked either by name or by the use
of "you" repeatedly
it sure would be nice if you would sure of your facts, before providing such misinformation.
.... The attack is full of emotional words, feelings, beliefs and opinions, but few
facts. this is a mild attack
It really does impact the credibility of this NG.
..... The attacker will often refer to "unidentified others" who share their beliefs
and "know what they know". The attack is most often public to be effective. So you
are assuming the role of protector of the newsgroup ...

And here I am being nice to you Greg. I erase your name from an erroneous statement
like "anaerobic bacteria break down ammonia to nitrogen which is a more usable form
for plants". I dont assume anything except it was an oversight, a mistake.


The ONLY fact in what I wrote was bead filters were originally made for swimming
pools
Not fact. What I heard from Jo Ann. The local pond people come to her when their
fish or ponds are in trouble. The locals brought their bead filters in and this is
what SHE found inside of them. And the symptoms of the fish that were sick and/or
dying in the ponds showing H2S poisoning were using some kind of bead filter. Not to
mention that is what it smelled like when they opened them up. You are free to call
Jo Ann and dispute what she has seen first hand. No need to attack me cause I am
repeating what I heard from a highly reputable source.

I toured both Bretts koi farm and Prices koi farm. I saw no bead filters. OTOH, as
I jokingly said .. women will go with cheap, low maintenance "organic" veggie filter
while men will use expensive, high maintenance technology to achieve the same
purpose. So I am not surprised that some men will be recommending what they use.
Ingrid

wrote in message
...
I am really surprised that you are going into personal attack mode.

Actually I was not, that was not my intention. I was going out of town, and
pressed for time, so I might have been shorter in my post, but there was no
anger, just a concern over repeat "misinformation"..

I apologize if I seemed a bit short, but you and I both know this is an
issue we have "debated" before.

We have disagreed on a number of issues in the past ranging from safe use of
PP, amount of water people need, use of routine salt, routine use of
antibiotics, etc. I never took any discussion personally, even when you
stated things I knew not to be factual, based on my fields of training. Nor
have I attacked people. That is not my style.

I don't have much time, which is why I rarely post, except when questions
are asked that I can answer based on available time, knowledge and
experience.

But, in this particular case I was quite concerned someone considering
purchansing a BF was going to be discouraged by something that just doesn't
happen, if the device is used properly.

I addressed these concerns the last time you raised them, and referenced the
same above 2 sites. I hoped you might have at least looked at the
information on BF on those sites.

Ingrid,
.... A personal attack or assault is not a discussion of facts. It begins
with the
attacker clearly identifying the person being attacked either by name or
by the use
of "you" repeatedly

it sure would be nice if you would sure of your facts, before providing
such misinformation.

I am sorry if you feel one use of "you", and one use of "your" constitutes a
personal attack..

... The attack is full of emotional words, feelings, beliefs and opinions,
but few
facts. this is a mild attack
It really does impact the credibility of this NG.


I'll let the informed readers of this NG determine where the emotional
words, etc, etc... you refer to are. I must have missed something..

.... The attacker will often refer to "unidentified others" who share
their beliefs
and "know what they know". The attack is most often public to be
effective. So you
are assuming the role of protector of the newsgroup ...

Not a protector, just someone who wants to help a person out with a filter
selection based on current facts, along with some personal experience with
BF.

And here I am being nice to you Greg. I erase your name from an erroneous
statement
like "anaerobic bacteria break down ammonia to nitrogen which is a more
usable form
for plants". I dont assume anything except it was an oversight, a
mistake.


Actually Ingrid if you are going to quote things, please quote them
accurately.. this is exactly what I mean!

The quote (folks you can read from the post just above this one, entitled
"VF.. 1 foot deep enough" )actually states (and I am using cut and paste
here so I will make no errors in the quote actually says):

"to allow anaerobic conditions to occur in the deeper soil layers,
which allows for the reduction of nitrates back to nitrogen, which is more
efficiently utilized by all the plants"

It states reduction of nitrates, (not the ammonia which you quoted me as
saying), back to nitrogen. I didn't mean nitrogen gas. I did assume most
would know that reduced nitrogen is actually NH4 (ammonium), reduced by the
addition of the hydrogen, but I should not have made any assumptions. Sorry
folks if there was any confusion...

If you go back and read my post (made a little bit ago, before my pc
crashed) tonight to that thread, you can see the references yourself. The
references will substantiate my statements in what goes on in plants, in how
they most efficiently utilize nitrogen. (whoops, I should say again reduced
nitrogen in the form of NH4).

That's exactly what I mean.. by taking liberties with quotes, statements,
etc, information is clearly taken out of context, and misleading to folks.


The ONLY fact in what I wrote was bead filters were originally made for
swimming
pools
Not fact. What I heard from Jo Ann. The local pond people come to her
when their
fish or ponds are in trouble. The locals brought their bead filters in
and this is
what SHE found inside of them. And the symptoms of the fish that were
sick and/or
dying in the ponds showing H2S poisoning were using some kind of bead
filter. Not to
mention that is what it smelled like when they opened them up. You are
free to call
Jo Ann and dispute what she has seen first hand. No need to attack me
cause I am
repeating what I heard from a highly reputable source.

Now you've identified your source, that is useful..

By pond people, I assume that means more than one.

I don't dispute she may have seen anaerobic poisoning, but as I said above,
any filter that is not maintained properly can and does result in anaerobic
conditions. BF are no different, They have a bigger SA per volume of filter,
so they have a bigger SA that could produce more of our good aerobic
(nitrifying) bacteria, and if not flushed for weeks at a time, a simple 5
minute task, more anaerobic as well.

Bigger gain, bigger risk, if not maintained.

They are so much easier to maintain compared to the brush, foam, and other
media filters that need to be taken aaprt and cleaned for optimum
performance.

For people with back problems, degenerative athritis, etc, they really cut
the work of ponding considerably down. A high tech blessing, I feel (that's
my opinion only)

I toured both Bretts koi farm and Prices koi farm. I saw no bead filters.

Those are 2 farms. I could give you the names of many others that do use
BF.. but that only shows that they can be safely used to handle large
volumes of fish, which was my point to begin with.

OTOH, as
I jokingly said .. women will go with cheap, low maintenance "organic"
veggie filter
while men will use expensive, high maintenance technology to achieve the
same
purpose. So I am not surprised that some men will be recommending what
they use.
Ingrid

Veggie filters are fine. It depends on the actual load of fish per volume of
pond you want to maintain. I don't you think would dispute that BF have some
of the highest SA to volume ratio you can get in a filter in today's market.

With heavily loaded Koi ponds, I don't think many would only rely on VF to
adequately maintain water quality.

Happy ponding,
Greg

we both know that bacteria do convert nitrates to nitrogen and release nitrogen which
is a gas. other bacteria (like in nodules of nitrogen fixers) fix nitrogen gas to
ammonia for use of the plant. the way it was stated would mislead people which is
why I corrected it. you are right, I didnt have the quoted section "in hand" but
what I summarized it said is substantially correct.
I would hope anyone would correct something I misstated.
I identified Jo Ann as the person who said this several times. She was reporting
that more than just a couple people were bringing her their defunct bead filters and
dying or dead fish. that is part of what she does for a living, she is a fish
diagnostician.
wrong. drip filters are not "sealed" and dont develop anaerobic problems. I am
going to visit Jo Ann, will take pictures of how much work it is to clean one of
those Big Sisters they use on their ponds. And I dont HAVE to bend over to clean my
veggie filter ... it sits on top of my pond. all I have to do is reach in with my
wet dry vac and remove the crud as I drain it ONCE A YEAR in fall as I remove the
plants cause I move em inside. I dont have to do that, but I want the plants inside,
most of them are tender. now why in the world would I recommend anything that needs
back flushing more than once a year when they can vacuum clean it just once a year?
and NO MEDIA is needed, just a bunch of plants.
what farms? are they online? got email addresses?
heavily loaded koi ponds are ticking time bombs. I sure dont recommend anyone
stocking their ponds so heavily that they actually need some high tech filtering to
keep wastes manageable. the problem with high tech is it requires vigilance and
maintenance, and shit happens and people simply cannot cope or they go on vacation
and whoever takes over cant handle the technology and Murphy's law takes over. all
summer long my maintenance is simple. feed the fish, make sure the pump is pumping,
top up the water. sit out next to the pond with coffee in the morning and watch em.

and I am going to continue to recommend avoiding bead filters and recommend easier
low tech methods!!!! Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
"to allow anaerobic conditions to occur in the deeper soil layers,
which allows for the reduction of nitrates back to nitrogen, which is more
efficiently utilized by all the plants"

The original bubble bead filter was gravity cleaned and if left uncleaned
would glue the beads together in the top, making it very difficult to get a
good cleaning, and this may have led to the problems that Jo Ann found.
There is a simple method of plumbing the bubble bead filters that makes it a
pressurized water cleaned system, and I have been using this system on my
bubble bead filter for four years and feel that I am getting good service
from it. The newer style filters are all designed using the swimming pool
sand filter tank. They have pressurized backwash, sludge valves in the
bottom, and a rinse cycle that expels anything that was light and loosened
during the cleaning cycle and sends it to waste. The H2S would either be
expelled through the bottom during backwash or through the top during rinse.
Most of the new filters have a blower attached that uses air to bubble the
water to thoroughly clean the beads using much less water. I am getting
ready to get one of these newer filters for my large pond and move the old
bubble bead to the smaller pond.

Everyone overstocks their ponds. They don't set out to. The fish grow.
They use rules like one fish per hundred gallons. I have one fish per 200
gallons in my large pond. Most of these fish are between 6 and 10 pounds.
That makes my filter have to filter the waste of about 150 pounds of fish.
My small pond is on a gravel bed veggie filter. It has about 3000 pounds of
gravel that has to be cleaned about twice a year. I am not as young as I
once was.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


wrote in message
...
I identified Jo Ann as the person who said this several times. She was
reporting
that more than just a couple people were bringing her their defunct bead
filters and
dying or dead fish. that is part of what she does for a living, she is a
fish
diagnostician.