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Old 27-05-2003, 11:44 PM
Doug Quarnstrom
 
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Default disaster narrowly averted

I have these recurring nightmares about needing to
rescue koi that are dying in truly strange ways.

The other morning my nightmares sort of intersected
reality.

When I stocked my koi pond, I put in about six
koi, because I did not want it overstocked in
case something went wrong. I figure with 1500
gallons, they would be fine. Problem is they
spawned roughly 30 babies and I have not had the
heart to take the babies out yet, and they
are getting bigger each year.

The pond is split into an upper and lower part
with a waterfall in between. I also comitted
a general no-no which is to have a pretty high
plant load in the pond as well. The upper
pond works as a vegetable filter, and the
water stays very clear, but the plants, of
course, consume oxygen at night.

Over the course of the winter, my pump's water
volume decreased by probably a factor of five.
It happened so slowly that I really did not
realize how bad it had gotten. I would take
it out and clear stuff that had visibly gotten
past the skimmer and lodged in the pump. But
I did not realize that hard little seed-like things
were getting lodged in the slots that drive the
water up into the outtake, and I could not see
them there. So I would look at the pump, see that
it was clean, and never really clue into the fact
that somehow it did not have the water flow it
used to have.

I think the decreased trickle allowed the oxygen
volume to drop in the lower pond, because that
pond is fundamentally overstocked and the upper
one is only available as an oxygen reservior if
the pump is working well enough.

I don't know exactly *why* but I started having issues
with the pump blowing the ground fault detector.
I have zero idea why that happened, but one night
it must have blown just after I went to bed.

I woke up to find all the fish, of course, gasing
at the surface. Most of them were distressed but
still mobile and reactive. The largest one was,
well, almost dead. Its eyes were glassy and it
was unresponsive when touched. It did finally
swim away but only to end up on its side with
its head partly in the skimmer.

I had to go to work. I got the pump started,
hoped the daylight would help oxygenate the
pond and somewhat unhopefully hoped for the best.

I left work early to go home, fully expecting the
big guy to be dead, and at least partly expecting
many or all to be dead. But when I got back, the
big guy had recovered and was swimming along happily.

I ripped out a bunch of plants. Added some large
reserve oxygenation with an air pump, discovered the
blockage in my main water pump, and then decided
to wait to remove the extra stock. I *REALLY* need
to make myself do that. I am hoping I can donate
the babies to my local Bottanic Gardens.

Anyhow, do you guys run plants in your koi ponds?
Many people say koi will destroy them, but that is
just BS. I have lots of plants that coexist with
my koi, but I am beginning to question the wisdom
of keeping them.

doug
  #2   Report Post  
Old 28-05-2003, 02:08 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default disaster narrowly averted

It isnt the plants that are above the water that remove oxygen at night. it is the
algae in the water and especially when the water is hot and not holding much oxygen
period. the really big issue is rotting organic matter. and that will eat up oxygen
really fast. when the pump and/or the air pump quits there is no oxygen or
oxygenated water coming into the system and the bacteria working on the organic load
uses up the oxygen. If you have 1 12" big air stone run by a big air pump you wont
have any kind of problem even in hot weather. Ingrid

(Doug Quarnstrom) wrote:
I ripped out a bunch of plants. Added some large
reserve oxygenation with an air pump, discovered the
blockage in my main water pump, and then decided
to wait to remove the extra stock. I *REALLY* need
to make myself do that. I am hoping I can donate
the babies to my local Bottanic Gardens.

Anyhow, do you guys run plants in your koi ponds?
Many people say koi will destroy them, but that is
just BS. I have lots of plants that coexist with
my koi, but I am beginning to question the wisdom
of keeping them.

doug


  #3   Report Post  
Old 28-05-2003, 03:20 AM
RichToyBox
 
Posts: n/a
Default disaster narrowly averted


One method of adding oxygen in this type of emergency is the addition of
hydrogen peroxide. Add about a pint per 1000 gallons, and wait a few
minutes for the fish to come around, and if they are still sluggish, add
another pint. The totally underwater plants like anacharis are called
oxygenators, but they are net oxygen consumers, using oxygen at night and on
dark and cloudy days.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Doug Quarnstrom" wrote in message
...
I have these recurring nightmares about needing to
rescue koi that are dying in truly strange ways.

The other morning my nightmares sort of intersected
reality.

When I stocked my koi pond, I put in about six
koi, because I did not want it overstocked in
case something went wrong. I figure with 1500
gallons, they would be fine. Problem is they
spawned roughly 30 babies and I have not had the
heart to take the babies out yet, and they
are getting bigger each year.

The pond is split into an upper and lower part
with a waterfall in between. I also comitted
a general no-no which is to have a pretty high
plant load in the pond as well. The upper
pond works as a vegetable filter, and the
water stays very clear, but the plants, of
course, consume oxygen at night.

Over the course of the winter, my pump's water
volume decreased by probably a factor of five.
It happened so slowly that I really did not
realize how bad it had gotten. I would take
it out and clear stuff that had visibly gotten
past the skimmer and lodged in the pump. But
I did not realize that hard little seed-like things
were getting lodged in the slots that drive the
water up into the outtake, and I could not see
them there. So I would look at the pump, see that
it was clean, and never really clue into the fact
that somehow it did not have the water flow it
used to have.

I think the decreased trickle allowed the oxygen
volume to drop in the lower pond, because that
pond is fundamentally overstocked and the upper
one is only available as an oxygen reservior if
the pump is working well enough.

I don't know exactly *why* but I started having issues
with the pump blowing the ground fault detector.
I have zero idea why that happened, but one night
it must have blown just after I went to bed.

I woke up to find all the fish, of course, gasing
at the surface. Most of them were distressed but
still mobile and reactive. The largest one was,
well, almost dead. Its eyes were glassy and it
was unresponsive when touched. It did finally
swim away but only to end up on its side with
its head partly in the skimmer.

I had to go to work. I got the pump started,
hoped the daylight would help oxygenate the
pond and somewhat unhopefully hoped for the best.

I left work early to go home, fully expecting the
big guy to be dead, and at least partly expecting
many or all to be dead. But when I got back, the
big guy had recovered and was swimming along happily.

I ripped out a bunch of plants. Added some large
reserve oxygenation with an air pump, discovered the
blockage in my main water pump, and then decided
to wait to remove the extra stock. I *REALLY* need
to make myself do that. I am hoping I can donate
the babies to my local Bottanic Gardens.

Anyhow, do you guys run plants in your koi ponds?
Many people say koi will destroy them, but that is
just BS. I have lots of plants that coexist with
my koi, but I am beginning to question the wisdom
of keeping them.

doug



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Old 28-05-2003, 03:44 AM
John Rutz
 
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Default disaster narrowly averted




Anyhow, do you guys run plants in your koi ponds?
Many people say koi will destroy them, but that is
just BS. I have lots of plants that coexist with
my koi, but I am beginning to question the wisdom
of keeping them.

doug



--

I keep plants in my pond with the koi with no problems
what happened to you sounds more like it was cause by your pump
problem with the over stocking you have causing a amonia buildup


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

  #5   Report Post  
Old 28-05-2003, 03:56 PM
Lee Brouillet
 
Posts: n/a
Default disaster narrowly averted

That was part of "My Big Fluke Fiasco" a couple of years ago: passed by the
pond on my way to work one morning and my 2 largest fish were floating,
dead. I was also having a "mystery algae" outbreak (similar to, but worse
than the one I just got through). Whereas the fish DID have flukes, I don't
think that's what killed them: the lack of O2 was the initial culprit. I
purchased a 4-airstone manifold from AES with a pump appropriately sized for
my pond. It's on a separate circuit breaker from the rest of the pond stuff,
so even when I shut the system down for maintenance, the air still blows.
When the water warms, it doesn't hold as much O2 as cooler water does. The
fish are growing, and eating more. It's a cruel twist Mother Nature puts on
us: as the fish require more oxygen, she decreases its availability. This
is one of my two "soap boxes": (1) add more O2, and (2) know the actual
amount of water in your pond. Neither one of these can be emphasized enough.

You're very lucky to have caught it in time. I wish I knew then what I know
now . . .

Lee


"Doug Quarnstrom" wrote in message
...
I have these recurring nightmares about needing to
rescue koi that are dying in truly strange ways.

The other morning my nightmares sort of intersected
reality.

When I stocked my koi pond, I put in about six
koi, because I did not want it overstocked in
case something went wrong. I figure with 1500
gallons, they would be fine. Problem is they
spawned roughly 30 babies and I have not had the
heart to take the babies out yet, and they
are getting bigger each year.

The pond is split into an upper and lower part
with a waterfall in between. I also comitted
a general no-no which is to have a pretty high
plant load in the pond as well. The upper
pond works as a vegetable filter, and the
water stays very clear, but the plants, of
course, consume oxygen at night.

Over the course of the winter, my pump's water
volume decreased by probably a factor of five.
It happened so slowly that I really did not
realize how bad it had gotten. I would take
it out and clear stuff that had visibly gotten
past the skimmer and lodged in the pump. But
I did not realize that hard little seed-like things
were getting lodged in the slots that drive the
water up into the outtake, and I could not see
them there. So I would look at the pump, see that
it was clean, and never really clue into the fact
that somehow it did not have the water flow it
used to have.

I think the decreased trickle allowed the oxygen
volume to drop in the lower pond, because that
pond is fundamentally overstocked and the upper
one is only available as an oxygen reservior if
the pump is working well enough.

I don't know exactly *why* but I started having issues
with the pump blowing the ground fault detector.
I have zero idea why that happened, but one night
it must have blown just after I went to bed.

I woke up to find all the fish, of course, gasing
at the surface. Most of them were distressed but
still mobile and reactive. The largest one was,
well, almost dead. Its eyes were glassy and it
was unresponsive when touched. It did finally
swim away but only to end up on its side with
its head partly in the skimmer.

I had to go to work. I got the pump started,
hoped the daylight would help oxygenate the
pond and somewhat unhopefully hoped for the best.

I left work early to go home, fully expecting the
big guy to be dead, and at least partly expecting
many or all to be dead. But when I got back, the
big guy had recovered and was swimming along happily.

I ripped out a bunch of plants. Added some large
reserve oxygenation with an air pump, discovered the
blockage in my main water pump, and then decided
to wait to remove the extra stock. I *REALLY* need
to make myself do that. I am hoping I can donate
the babies to my local Bottanic Gardens.

Anyhow, do you guys run plants in your koi ponds?
Many people say koi will destroy them, but that is
just BS. I have lots of plants that coexist with
my koi, but I am beginning to question the wisdom
of keeping them.

doug





  #7   Report Post  
Old 29-05-2003, 06:22 AM
Doug Quarnstrom
 
Posts: n/a
Default disaster narrowly averted

John Rutz ) wrote:


: --

: I keep plants in my pond with the koi with no problems
: what happened to you sounds more like it was cause by your pump
: problem with the over stocking you have causing a amonia buildup

Nope. Zero ammonia.


: John Rutz
: Z5 New Mexico
:
: good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
: judgement

Indeed.

doug
  #8   Report Post  
Old 29-05-2003, 06:22 AM
Doug Quarnstrom
 
Posts: n/a
Default disaster narrowly averted

Lee Brouillet ) wrote:

: You're very lucky to have caught it in time. I wish I knew then what I know
: now . . .

Yeah. I know. The biggest fish is quite fortunate to have
lived. Makes me feel rather guilty, since I know all the
fundamentals and should have been more careful to ensure
the pump was working at 100% effectiveness.

doug

  #11   Report Post  
Old 31-05-2003, 05:44 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default disaster narrowly averted

OK.. the two aquaculture books I have discuss algae blooms, hot temps and loss of
oxygen. they dont talk about other plants of any kind being able to deplete the
oxygen like that. the reason may be a surface to volume ratio for uptake of oxygen.
the surface area of the roots of plants are small compared to the overall surface
area of all the algae in an algae bloom. the roots of plants that are above water
only extract oxygen from a small area of the top of the water, like water hyacinths
and lettuce. Algae occupies every square inch of the entire water column.
there is a trade off in floating plants. yes, they decrease the area for gas
exchange, OTOH, floating plants shade and as a result cool the water. algae wont
grow in shade. but when I say "above the surface" I am thinking more about plants
like iris, reeds, water celery, etc. that actually stand up out of the water.
so the treatment for a pond where fish are gasping is not to pull the plants out, but
to aerate the water and get rid of the conditions that are fueling the algae bloom.
In doing a search for info, I ran across this site
Water Plants 101 A basic Introduction to the physiology and ecology of aquatic
plants By Dave Huebert http://www.hallman.org/plant/huebert.html
Ingrid

(Doug Quarnstrom) wrote:

wrote:
: need to cite your sources then. Ingrid

I will certainly do so if I can locate them.
However, even if surface plants do not take oxygen
out at night, ones that spread a great deal will
certainly reduce the surface area for gas exchange
and may be problematic for that reason alone.

One might request your sources as well...


doug

:
(Doug Quarnstrom) wrote:

: wrote:
: : It isnt the plants that are above the water that remove oxygen at night. it is the
:
: Not according to what I have read.


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