Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

David Larson wrote:
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David


We like to have clear water so that we can see our fish.
That is for us, not the fishes ;-)

--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/

What am I missing here????

Nothing. Clear water is for viewing the beautiful koi from above.

Must be a Japanese thing. My koi like green water

David Larson wrote:

Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Disclaimer: I know nothing about koi -- I'm still amazed that my goldfish
from PetsMart are still alive 4 years later in my teeny 3-foot water garden!

However, a few things occurred to me after checking out the website
mentioned in David's post below. And definitely, I think people should
check out this page on the website
http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/farm%20photos.htm for the beautiful photos,
especially the terraced(?) ponds.

First, "mud pond" may mean something entirely different to the Japanese (or
it doesn't translate exactly) -- perhaps "mud pond" only refers to a pond
carved out of dirt, rather than lined with some other material?

Second, the water does indeed look very muddy, but might that not be caused
by all the people & activity in the pond? (After all, these photos show a
harvest; I did not see any pictures of "undisturbed" ponds.)

Third, as my husband would remind me, "well, after all, they're a member of
the carp family, aren't they? Do you think that carp get crystal clear
water everywhere?" (to which I reply that I had not given that particular
topic much thought, as indeed I had not).

Just my $.02 worth,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC
________________________


"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

I read somewhere that the mud or something in the mud helps give the fish
better color.


"Matt Rosing" wrote in message
...
Must be a Japanese thing. My koi like green water

David Larson wrote:

Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to
have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

There have been several to many articles on this very subject
in pond magazines and books. Yes, the Japanese do indeed
use mud ponds to grow out their Koi. The mud makes the
colors much brighter. The Japanese don't keep the Koi in
these ponds all their lives - just a portion of.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Anne Lurie" wrote in message
om...
Disclaimer: I know nothing about koi -- I'm still amazed that my
goldfish
from PetsMart are still alive 4 years later in my teeny 3-foot water
garden!

However, a few things occurred to me after checking out the website
mentioned in David's post below. And definitely, I think people should
check out this page on the website
http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/farm%20photos.htm for the beautiful photos,
especially the terraced(?) ponds.

First, "mud pond" may mean something entirely different to the Japanese
(or
it doesn't translate exactly) -- perhaps "mud pond" only refers to a
pond
carved out of dirt, rather than lined with some other material?

Second, the water does indeed look very muddy, but might that not be
caused
by all the people & activity in the pond? (After all, these photos show a
harvest; I did not see any pictures of "undisturbed" ponds.)

Third, as my husband would remind me, "well, after all, they're a member
of
the carp family, aren't they? Do you think that carp get crystal clear
water everywhere?" (to which I reply that I had not given that particular
topic much thought, as indeed I had not).

Just my $.02 worth,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC
________________________


"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live
in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to
have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

David Larson wrote:
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David



--
the Koi dont mind the dirty water algae some bit of mud etc as long as
the chemistry is OK its us that are owned by fish that like the clesr
watr so we can see our prettys




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 13:50:06 -0800, David Larson
wrote:

What am I missing here????

I'm not sure. Did you know the koi is a carp?
Did you know the koi have teeth back in their throat for crushing things
like snail shells and other small shellfish they dig up from the bottom?
If you knew that you knew their natural habitat is mud bottom even
though most koi keepers don't want their fish referred to as bottom
feeders, that is what they are.

Regards,

Hal

The "mud ponds" the Japanese use are finishing ponds - where the koi go to
"finish" before a show. The "mud" is calcium bentonite clay - a very
specific type of clay. It has very high mineral content and has been proven
over the centuries to improve the color of the koi and the luster of their
skin. This particular clay has many uses, and is even sprinkled over food
here in the States as an aid to digestion. Many paste foods include a half
cup or so of bentonite clay as an ingredient. The fish are placed in the
finishing ponds for 6 months to a year, during which time they aren't seen
at all (due to the density of the mud) until the pond is drained for
harvesting. Then it's like Christmas morning!

The koi don't mind "unclear" water (green algae or mud), their owners do
GBG! We don't like feeding "lips" - all that we can see when the water is
murky. We want to see our prized finny pets, so we want clear water.
Actually, if the water was murky, it would probably save their lives, as it
would be a lot harder for predators to see them. The water can be funky (to
us), but as long as the ammonia, nitrItes, pH and DO are in line, the fish
could care less!

Lee

"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
The "mud ponds" the Japanese use are finishing ponds - where the koi go to
"finish" before a show. The "mud" is calcium bentonite clay - a very
specific type of clay. It has very high mineral content and has been
proven
over the centuries to improve the color of the koi and the luster of their
skin. This particular clay has many uses, and is even sprinkled over food
here in the States as an aid to digestion. Many paste foods include a half
cup or so of bentonite clay as an ingredient. The fish are placed in the
finishing ponds for 6 months to a year, during which time they aren't seen
at all (due to the density of the mud) until the pond is drained for
harvesting. Then it's like Christmas morning!

The koi don't mind "unclear" water (green algae or mud), their owners do
GBG! We don't like feeding "lips" - all that we can see when the water
is
murky. We want to see our prized finny pets, so we want clear water.
Actually, if the water was murky, it would probably save their lives, as
it
would be a lot harder for predators to see them. The water can be funky
(to
us), but as long as the ammonia, nitrItes, pH and DO are in line, the fish
could care less!

Lee

"David Larson" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I've read many threads about Koi needing to have crystal clean water in
order to thrive. Then I
looked at a few websites for Koi breeders in Japan, and their Koi live
in
mud ponds and the water is
far from crystal clear. Look at these pics -

http://www.tategoi.com/oomokoi/koi%20harvest.htm

Now... these breeders have zillions of dollars (yen) invested in their
Koi, so they need them to
maintain prime health. This being the case, is it really necessary to
have
clear water for koi? Yes,
Ph, nitrates, nitrites, and such need to be correct - but it seems the
water itself does not need to
be clear.

What am I missing here????

- David

Nedra, where did you find calcium bentonite? Most bentonite I've seen
here has been sodium bentonite, and when I ask about calcium bentonite
am told there is no difference between the two.
--
zookeeper

Nedra wrote:
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! ...

"Nedra" wrote:

Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay?

Bentonite:
http://www.csminchem.co.uk/bentonite.htm

Koi Clay
http://www.koitonic.com/what's%20it.htm

The latter site indicates it is calcium bentonite, and the former
indicates that sodium bentonite has different "gelling" properties.

usd $28/10 lbs from the latter site.

Nedra wrote:
Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118


Nedra
youll love the koi clay what it does to your pond
it is the betonite



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

John Rutz wrote:


Nedra wrote:

Hey Lee ... Is the calcium bentonite clay the same thing as
Koi Clay? I do hope so ... I just bought a bunch! Have
only used it one week so far. I notice the rocks that have
fallen in over the years are now a deep brown. Wonder if
this is from the Koi Clay? Guess I should call the owner
VBG I also sprinkled about a tablespoon or two on the
roses.... miracle stuff! None on my food yet.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118


Nedra
youll love the koi clay what it does to your pond
it is the betonite



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from
bad judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com


I have started to use the koi clay this season. My pond was
beautifully clear until the rains started and now they are a
mess. All the readings are good, but my clarity is gone. I
just dosed again with the BZT. It was so nice 2 weeks ago,
hopefully they will be again soon.

--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/