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Old 08-06-2003, 07:44 PM
Jo Bohannon-Grant MD
 
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Default SOS! SICK FISH!/do all dead fish float?/Melafix?/Furanase

I've been waiting for a 'floater' so I can swab the skin and look at it
under my scope.
I know I'll have no trouble differentiating fungal hyphae from bacteria
and parasites.
I thought for sure at least two of my fishies have died, but I haven't
seen a carcass.
I have a gate separating my two ponds to contain the fish in the larger
pond and prevent the bodies from entering the skimmers, but no bodies to
be found.

Which leads my to a stupid question: do all dead fish float?

This morning I think I see two gray mutt koi/goldfish progeny with white
milk mustaches.

So- white sores on the sides and white milk mustaches- combo
fungal/bacterial infection?

I have a 10 gal hospital aquarium ready for fish, but I can't catch them;
they're fast little suckers!

I'm feeding antibiotic fish food, have salt concentration at 0.16%,
waiting for KMnO4 to arrive (this will be my last resort treatment),
added a bottle of Melafix (quackery or does it really work?),
ph still 9 (do I keep adding muriatic acid?), and I bought some
Furanase, which supposedly treats fungus and bacteria. Bottle states
"Treats: Mouth Fungus (Chondrococcus Columnaris) Bacteria (causing Fin
and Tail Rot), Cotton Wool Fungus.

Do I add the Furanase?

Thanks for everyone's help.

Jo Bohannon
Richmond, Va



Gregory Young wrote:

Greeting JO.
I'm BC in EM and IM, practicing mostly the former.
1) isolate involved fish in tank/pool, etc. Perform a gill/skin scraping and
look for parasites under a scope (which I know you can do based on your
training. You may need help identifying the parasites initially. I would
recommend you go to either www.akca.org or www.koivet.com which can help you
with that part.


Greg




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Old 09-06-2003, 04:56 AM
Tom La Bron
 
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Default SOS! SICK FISH!/do all dead fish float?/Melafix?/Furanase

Jo,

Sorry for not being here sooner, but Saturdays were storms and I don't turn
on the computer and today was church, lunch and then take the kids to the
new swimming hole, so I just saw your email.

I agree with Gregory, that antibiotics in the whole pond is foolish and
costly. It seems to be a moot treatment beings you can't catch your fish,
but it you could you could set up a dip for your fish equaling 100mg of
oxytetracycline/1 liter of water and dip the fish for one hour. You could
also get the newer Romet medicated food that has oxytetracycline in it.

About non-floaters in dead fish, this is a yes. I experienced it this
winter, lost two fish and never knew they were gone until I couldn't find
this spring when I went to put them outside; all I found, literally, were
their skeletons at the bottom of the barrel.

Melafix works, but you need to follow the instructions and put it in every
day or at least every other day for a week. I was forced to try it when my
thoughtful daughters won some fish at Wally-World and put them in Daddy's
ponds because daddy didn't have any like these. Two days later I had 2 dead
fish floating. I introduced Melafix as directed and lost one more fish and
after the 6 days all was right with the world.

Your pH problem is a hard one. Like Gregory said I would use the baking
soda to add KH and keep trying to lower the pH. Muriatic acid is supposedly
the quickest way, but I really don't know if is the best. There are a lot
of products out there that say they will lower pH, but this is one avenue
that I have never had to travel, because my ponds only decrease from 8.2 is
if I get 5 inches of rain in an afternoon or overnight. It certainly never
goes above 8.5.

I certainly would not be too quick to add the Fruanase until I see the
results of the Melafix or if the fish are getting any better with the
Melafix.

Be careful with the PP. Make sure you have plenty of H2O2 handy just in
case.

Injectable would be best, but this depends on your expertise and if you can
get the meds and syringes.

HTH

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------
"Jo Bohannon-Grant MD" wrote in message
...
I've been waiting for a 'floater' so I can swab the skin and look at it
under my scope.
I know I'll have no trouble differentiating fungal hyphae from bacteria
and parasites.
I thought for sure at least two of my fishies have died, but I haven't
seen a carcass.
I have a gate separating my two ponds to contain the fish in the larger
pond and prevent the bodies from entering the skimmers, but no bodies to
be found.

Which leads my to a stupid question: do all dead fish float?

This morning I think I see two gray mutt koi/goldfish progeny with white
milk mustaches.

So- white sores on the sides and white milk mustaches- combo
fungal/bacterial infection?

I have a 10 gal hospital aquarium ready for fish, but I can't catch them;
they're fast little suckers!

I'm feeding antibiotic fish food, have salt concentration at 0.16%,
waiting for KMnO4 to arrive (this will be my last resort treatment),
added a bottle of Melafix (quackery or does it really work?),
ph still 9 (do I keep adding muriatic acid?), and I bought some
Furanase, which supposedly treats fungus and bacteria. Bottle states
"Treats: Mouth Fungus (Chondrococcus Columnaris) Bacteria (causing Fin
and Tail Rot), Cotton Wool Fungus.

Do I add the Furanase?

Thanks for everyone's help.

Jo Bohannon
Richmond, Va



Gregory Young wrote:

Greeting JO.
I'm BC in EM and IM, practicing mostly the former.
1) isolate involved fish in tank/pool, etc. Perform a gill/skin scraping

and
look for parasites under a scope (which I know you can do based on your
training. You may need help identifying the parasites initially. I would
recommend you go to either www.akca.org or www.koivet.com which can help

you
with that part.


Greg





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Old 09-06-2003, 03:56 PM
Bob Adkins
 
Posts: n/a
Default SOS! SICK FISH!/do all dead fish float?/Melafix?/Furanase

On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 14:40:24 -0400, Jo Bohannon-Grant MD
wrote:

Which leads my to a stupid question: do all dead fish float?


Yes, they all eventually float.

An exception would be if the fish were partially eaten, opening the body
cavity.

Bob
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Old 10-06-2003, 04:08 AM
Gregory Young
 
Posts: n/a
Default SOS! SICK FISH!/do all dead fish float?/Melafix?/Furanase

Tom said additionally what I would have said, so not much to add, except:
1) fish with ulcers often don't float upon death. It depends in part on
amount of air left in bladder at death, plus extent (depth) of ulcer (esp.
if into peritoneum)
2) the fact that you can't catch the diseased fish is a good sign, in that
at least they have some strength to flee (although granted that is one of
the last things to go)
3) dips in small tank, etc are fine.
Here's another alternative I learned actually from Doc Johnson.. you can put
in an OG feeding tube (oral-gastric) using, for small Koi, a 6 French
(pediatric) tube, or go larger with larger Koi (up to 16 Fr or so)
Just like the intubation rule we use when tubing an adult patient (dia. of
5th fingernail), Koi have a marker for tube size as well! Use the dia. of
their pupil. Pick that dia. soft feeding tube and away you go!! OG
"intubation" is a piece of cake, but...
NB: There are 2 major caveats with using tubes:
1) insert back thru throat, making sure you don't insert off midline and
wind up exiting thru the gills! The esophagus is behind the teeth plate,
usually closed, but opens without a problem. As they have no stomach, their
is NO chance of regurgitation with this procedure, so no sedation is needed
(no folks I am NOT being cruel.. it's more cruel to use anesthesia when they
are very ill, as that may push them over the limit - death!)
2) instill your antibiotic (TC in this case), which you can mix as a paste,
by mixing a broken capsule/crushed tablet with castor oil. Instill NO MORE
THAN 2 - 3 cc maximum of the antibiotic/castor oil mix for each dose
administered, or you can perf. the intestines, esp. if they have not been
eating (which is why you may be doing this to begin with) and they are
contracted. Dose is a familiar 20mg/kg, so you need to estimate that. There
are charts to guesstimate weight from length, but here's a few points:
6" .05 - .1kg
10" .2kg
12' .3 - .4kg
16" .8 - 1.0kg
Good luck,
Greg


"Bob Adkins" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 14:40:24 -0400, Jo Bohannon-Grant MD


wrote:

Which leads my to a stupid question: do all dead fish float?


Yes, they all eventually float.

An exception would be if the fish were partially eaten, opening the body
cavity.

Bob





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