I think it comes down to what do the experts feed their koi, their dogs. People like
Brett Rowley who breed koi use high quality feed like Rangen, and he has to minimize
his costs to stay in business ..... he got more koi mouths to feed than all of us put
together. And Brett knows more about breeding and raising healthy koi than all of us
put together.
I am on a dog list as well, and the same issue comes up about cheap bulk dog food vs
better brands. And part of my decision to feed high quality koi food is because I
can actually see the difference between high protein dog food and the cheap stuff
that is mostly fillers. When my two big springers take a dump after eating cheap
food the pile is enormous. With high protein food there isnt 1/2 the wastes. The
difference was obvious when I switched from cheap GF food to high protein. My
filters stopped getting fouled with undigested food. Bulk is in one end and out the
other.
I think it is pretty clear all over the world what happens when people eat high
starch diets. The majority of them get huge ... but it is obesity, not "sleekly fat"
Minimize the protein and they are runted, never attaining their growth potential.
Limit protein to children and they never develop full brain potential and their
immune system is compromised. Those little kids with big bellies are the result of a
lack of protein, but plenty of starch in their diet.
I dont have high dollar koi, but they are my pets.. and they are worth a buck a year
each to feed them high quality food. Fish are good converters of food, I think it is
something like for every 2 lbs of food they put on 1 lb of weight. So fish just dont
need so MUCH food. And since I want to maintain the highest quality water I want to
use food that isnt going to unnecessarily make it more difficult. Ingrid

"Just Me \"Koi\"" wrote:
1. Why am I even thinking about buying catfish food, I wouldn't feed my
pet dogs pig chow even though it costs a lot less would I? I quickly
reminded him how coyotes are same as dogs and they eat anything....to which
he came back.."Dogs have been domesticated for ages and have lost their
natural defense against the germs in .........
2. What is the cost of Koi food compared to the cost of the Koi?

This is an incorrect statement. I am not now, nor have ever been in the business of
selling high priced koi or any other kind of food. Jo Ann is a friend that I can
recommend for certain products. Most of the time when I recommend Jo Ann it is for
people with sick fish to call her for help, which is free. I recommend AES or "that
pet place" 95% of the time for fish related products.
I pay for the food I buy from Jo Ann and I have the credit card slips to prove it. I
have no financial arrangement of any kind with Jo Ann, I get no money or goods as the
result of my recommendations from Jo Ann, from AES or from "that pet place". I, my
list, my website do not get a SINGLE PENNY from any seller of any product at all.
Ingrid

"~ Windsong ~" wrote:
Ingrid and Joann are in the business of selling high priced koi food


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote:
catfish farmers sell em per lb. catfish have a very short life span and the food is
designed to fatten them fast for market and so they taste right. Koi are pets. we
are looking at our pets living more than a year or two. I have to trust that the
Japanese know what they are doing about formulating food. I know people who breed
show koi in the US, like Brett dont use cat food. My pets are worth a buck or even
two bucks a year each for food. Ingrid

"Just Me \"Koi\"" wrote:

What is catfish food, and where does one buy catfish food?
Ingrid and Joann, what do you both think about this catfish food thing?




-- a buck or two ayear for food ? so that means you feed them what 1/2
ounce of food a year since most Koi feed is 25 or so $ a lb???????





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Jo Ann and Steve got 77 koi in their big pond. they range from 5-20 lbs each
Steve gives them 2 pints of food per night (which weighs 16 oz), combination of Ogata
and Rangen. the RETAIL cost of feeding their monsters is:
6.5 cents per day per koi
45 cents per week per koi
23.63 bucks per year per koi cause they feed 365 days a year down there in Ala and
they heat their ponds. The koi are monsters and are growing.

their 5 lb fish are around 18-22", so it averages out maybe to around 0.25 lbs per
inch for those big fish.
a quick and dirty estimate of the average is they got 940 lbs of koi and feed 16 oz
of food per day.

I am not sure how many koi I got. Lets say 25 koi from 6-14", I know they arent 0.25
lbs per inch, but lets say my 25 fish weigh in at 40 lbs. I should be feeding 1/24th
as much food as they do, or 2/3 of an ounce per day. Well, I think I feed more than
that cause I been feeding a less than 1/2 cup or around 1.2 oz of food per day.

Last year I bought
5 lbs of Rangen ($4/lb) $20.00
5 lbs of Ogata (5.50/lb) 27.50
5lbs of romet B ($4) 20.00
--------------------------------------------
67.50
I had Ogata left this spring been using it and will run out this week.
I have romet B left and I gave away at least half to people with sick fish.

I started feeding around April 15 when the water is above 55oF.
I quit feeding around Oct 8th. I didnt keep records on first and last feeding. But
this was around 25 weeks I fed the koi. Lets say 24 weeks cause I forget to feed
them every day. So 24 weeks X 7 days X 1.2 ounces per day = 201 ounces per year or
12.6 lbs. If I feed them according to Steve's rate, I should feed 110 ounces per
year or 6.9 lbs of food.
However, I feed 25 koi 12.6 lbs of food per year, average price is $5/lb or so comes
out to $2.50 per koi. Feeding at Steve's rate 6.9 lbs x $5 = 34.50 or $1.38 per koi
per year.
It doesnt add up right, I have more food left over so I may have missed more feedings
than I thought or not feed 1/2 cup. I dunno.
Yeah, that comes out to about 1/2 lb per year per fish.
High quality koi food is around $5 per lb.
High quality koi food has more digestible nutrition per ounce so I dont have to feed
as much and there is less waste coming out the other end to foul my water and foul my
filters. Anybody wanna feed catfish food to save a few bucks no skin off my nose.
I will feed my fish what Brett feeds his. Ingrid

John Rutz wrote:
-- a buck or two ayear for food ? so that means you feed them what 1/2
ounce of food a year since most Koi feed is 25 or so $ a lb???????


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

In the last chapter: picked up the keyboard and
pecked out:
:: I think it comes down to what do the experts feed their koi, their
:: dogs. People like Brett Rowley who breed koi use high quality
:: feed like Rangen, and he has to minimize his costs to stay in
:: business ..... he got more koi mouths to feed than all of us put
:: together. And Brett knows more about breeding and raising healthy
:: koi than all of us put together.

## He's a breeder, not a pet fish owner like most of us out here. He sells
his fish and that covers the cost of higher priced feeds. Also as a breeder
you can be sure he's getting a professional discount - plus he buys a lot
more than we do per year also lowering his costs. And unless he tried
cheaper food/catfish chow and had a problem, there is no way he would know
the difference.
I was sure that wolf, coyote breeder was going to tell me she was feeding
high priced dog food, fresh liver and other meats to her breeding stock -
not so, they ate dry food from Wal-Mart mixed with canned dogfood and some
table scraps.

:: I am on a dog list as well, and the same issue comes up about
:: cheap bulk dog food vs better brands. And part of my decision to
:: feed high quality koi food is because I can actually see the
:: difference between high protein dog food and the cheap stuff that
:: is mostly fillers. When my two big springers take a dump after
:: eating cheap food the pile is enormous. With high protein food
:: there isnt 1/2 the wastes.

## That may be true. The size of my dog's feces isn't important since they
have a very large fenced in area and use the back portion away from the
house. When I bred poodles in NYC I fed them Purina, pure canned meat and
of course leftovers and scraps. I think the canned meat was Cadillac brand.
If these dogs and my koi were part of a business, breeding stock.... I may
look at it differently.

The difference was obvious when I
:: switched from cheap GF food to high protein. My filters stopped
:: getting fouled with undigested food. Bulk is in one end and out
:: the other.
:: I think it is pretty clear all over the world what happens when
:: people eat high starch diets. The majority of them get huge ...
:: but it is obesity, not "sleekly fat"

## I don't disagree, ...because I flush the filters once a week no matter
if they're slowing down or not it doesn't matter to me. Some weeks they
slow-down more than other weeks. If they started clogging every few days I
would still keep the cheaper food and flush them more often - or add another
filter. And again, one must compare to know for sure. If after using a
feed that's only $11 per 50 lbs their filter clogs more often then they care
to flush or clean it, they can always go back to the $5 - $10 a lb feed.
High carbohydrate diets can cause obesity. That's well known. Also known
is that it's more a lack of "portion control" causing the obesity, plus the
sedentary lifestyle so many take up these days. As for our fish and dogs.
If we overfeed them they will surely get overweight and the more carbs the
foods contain the faster that can happen.

Minimize the protein and they
:: are runted, never attaining their growth potential. Limit protein
:: to children and they never develop full brain potential and their
:: immune system is compromised. Those little kids with big bellies
:: are the result of a lack of protein, but plenty of starch in their
:: diet.

## True, those kids have a serious lack of protein. None of us have seen
that happen with our pond fish on catfish food. The goldfish also grow fine
on it.

:: I dont have high dollar koi, but they are my pets.. and they are
:: worth a buck a year each to feed them high quality food.

## A buck a year? My koi can eat a lb of food in less than a week. That's
a lot more than a buck a year! They're fed twice a day, 7 days a week.

Fish are
:: good converters of food, I think it is something like for every 2
:: lbs of food they put on 1 lb of weight. So fish just dont need so
:: MUCH food. And since I want to maintain the highest quality water
:: I want to use food that isnt going to unnecessarily make it more
:: difficult. Ingrid

## This is understandable. So far water quality hasn't suffered. The ponds
are all loaded with plants and the larger pond has a plant filled settling
tank. Both have a UV light. We've had no disease or parasites since the
ponds were netted, everythig new is treated with PP before going into them,
LymnoZyme (now called koizyme ?) is added in the spring, and we started
feeding the catfish chow.
--
*.·´¨¨))
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))*
*((¸¸.·´ ..·´
((¸¸.·´* ~ * Carol * ~ *

In the last chapter: John Rutz picked up the keyboard and pecked out:

wrote:
My pets are worth a buck or even two bucks a year each for
::: food. Ingrid )
~~~~~~~~~~
:: -- a buck or two ayear for food ? so that means you feed them
:: what 1/2
:: ounce of food a year since most Koi feed is 25 or so $ a lb???????
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was also wondering about her "buck a year" comment. One of the cheapest
koi foods I can find in my area of middle TN is made by Misty Mountain and
costs $32.99 for a 10 lb bag. That bag is gone in about a month. We feed
here from early April until sometime in November. That can run us around
$260 bucks a year, give or take a few dollars. Uh, no thanks. :-) I buy
one of these overpriced bags a year for the young goldfish and smaller koi
that can't manage the catfish chow. As soon as they're mouths are large
enough guess which feed they go for????

Yes,... the catfish food!!!!
--
Carol.......
The thrifty ponder........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~{@

Ingrid, I hope you are sitting down, as this time you and I agree on a
topic! (I mean that in a positive way, not negative, just to clarify).
Food quality does matter!
Yes, any animal can survive, eating almost any non harmful foodstuff,
regardless of its nutritional value. The animals will grow, mature and
eventually die, just as others eating a different more balanced foodstuff.
Size though can be deceiving. Just look what is happening in this country
with obesity. It is a national epidemic.
Medical studies have shown its not just lack of activity (esp. in
children/young adults), nor is it just the amount of food consumed (total
daily caloric intake) but it is related to the quality of our food.
Fats in the diet don't lead to obesity anywhere near as much as some of the
carbohydrates do!
In mammals, fats are utilized primarily for energy. If there are not fatty
calories available, then stored carbohydrates are utilized.
Excess carbohydrates are stored as fat, once glycogen storage is maxed out.
As most USA diets have excess calories, the excess is stored as adipose
tissue (fat) for later use by the body when there is inadequate caloric
intake to meet energy needs (which rarely occurs in the average US diets
hence the obesity).
Yes kids grow into adults, and they are big and seemingly healthy (like our
fish), yet many are getting early cancers, heart disease, many have more and
more immune related issues like asthma, chronic sinusitis, etc, etc, which
we (the medical profession) finally have realized has a major dietary
component to it, in addition to genetics.
So how does this relate to fish?
I am not an expert of fish food. I do know the percentages of components
that should be in a good quality diet; the difference between the sources of
lipids (fats), (with fish oil being preferred); the differences between
digestibility of various heat stabilized vit C products; as well as
understanding the facts behind the hype about color enhancement and immune
stabilizing additions; etc, etc., but I am not a breeder/commercial grower,
and have not had the experience some in this NG have.
That being said, I have read quite a few articles on feeds available, and
growth studies etc. None of them however, at least any of the ones I have
seen, address long term health/longevity.
At a wet lab Dr. Johnson stated, (and I think he probably has written this
somewhere I am quite sure), that when evaluating the causes of "swollen
belly" in Koi (vs. dropsy which has a whole different set of causes, and you
usually call immediately tell the 2 apart as in dropsy the scales stand out
away from the body) the most frequent cause of "swollen belly" he has seen
is fatty liver, due to poor diet, specifically "due to feeding of catfish
food to Koi". That is his quote and his opinion, based on his aquatic vet.
practice for the last 12 years, not mine. It makes sense though, although
granted it is anecdotal.
BTW, The other causes of "swollen belly" are fecal/roe impaction, cystic
kidney, tumor, abscess, etc.
I'm not saying you need to buy $20 per pound fish food!!
I am saying I would rather buy a few higher quality feeds, mix them for a
varied diet (along with household veggies, etc), and feed less in total
calories, than to feed more calories of a lesser quality food that has
proteins, etc that may not be as efficiently utilized, which results in
fatty deposition in the liver and in the belly.
Size and speed/amount of growth are not necessarily synonymous with health
and longevity.
All that being said, I think are plenty of high quality foods available,
with prices that vary. I would not recommend any one brand, as I have never
seen a head to head comparison of foods reviewing their impact on the above
factors (health (immunity issues), and longevity)
Happy ponding,
Greg


"~ Windsong ~" wrote in message
...
In the last chapter: DesertPond picked up the keyboard and pecked out:
:: Anyone in Arizona know a feed supplier that carries Catfish food?
:: My guys are getting bigger and my wallet's getting thinner. :-(
===================
Check on the net or your Yellow Pages for any feed or farm equipment
stores
in your area - start calling around! The place that sells it closest to
me
is Tractor Supply.
--
Carol.......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~{@

Ditto, I'm with Ingrid & Greg and don't have anything more to add to the
discussion except, did you happen to see the Mallard Filmore Cartoon?

**Goldfish in a bowl saying: "Apparently, America has an "overweight-pet"
problem.... It doesn't affect me.... I'm on the "eat too much and they find
you floating upside-down.... and flush you down the toilet" diet. **

That's a keeper for the frig, along with the summer of Zits cartoons when
the 2 teen males decided they could make money digging koi ponds, course
they had to first find out what a koi was, and why it needed a pond. )
~ jan




On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:48:58 GMT, "Gregory Young"
wrote:

Ingrid, I hope you are sitting down, as this time you and I agree on a
topic! (I mean that in a positive way, not negative, just to clarify).
Food quality does matter!
Yes, any animal can survive, eating almost any non harmful foodstuff,
regardless of its nutritional value. The animals will grow, mature and
eventually die, just as others eating a different more balanced foodstuff.
Size though can be deceiving. Just look what is happening in this country
with obesity. It is a national epidemic.
Medical studies have shown its not just lack of activity (esp. in
children/young adults), nor is it just the amount of food consumed (total
daily caloric intake) but it is related to the quality of our food.
Fats in the diet don't lead to obesity anywhere near as much as some of the
carbohydrates do!
In mammals, fats are utilized primarily for energy. If there are not fatty
calories available, then stored carbohydrates are utilized.
Excess carbohydrates are stored as fat, once glycogen storage is maxed out.
As most USA diets have excess calories, the excess is stored as adipose
tissue (fat) for later use by the body when there is inadequate caloric
intake to meet energy needs (which rarely occurs in the average US diets
hence the obesity).
Yes kids grow into adults, and they are big and seemingly healthy (like our
fish), yet many are getting early cancers, heart disease, many have more and
more immune related issues like asthma, chronic sinusitis, etc, etc, which
we (the medical profession) finally have realized has a major dietary
component to it, in addition to genetics.
So how does this relate to fish?
I am not an expert of fish food. I do know the percentages of components
that should be in a good quality diet; the difference between the sources of
lipids (fats), (with fish oil being preferred); the differences between
digestibility of various heat stabilized vit C products; as well as
understanding the facts behind the hype about color enhancement and immune
stabilizing additions; etc, etc., but I am not a breeder/commercial grower,
and have not had the experience some in this NG have.
That being said, I have read quite a few articles on feeds available, and
growth studies etc. None of them however, at least any of the ones I have
seen, address long term health/longevity.
At a wet lab Dr. Johnson stated, (and I think he probably has written this
somewhere I am quite sure), that when evaluating the causes of "swollen
belly" in Koi (vs. dropsy which has a whole different set of causes, and you
usually call immediately tell the 2 apart as in dropsy the scales stand out
away from the body) the most frequent cause of "swollen belly" he has seen
is fatty liver, due to poor diet, specifically "due to feeding of catfish
food to Koi". That is his quote and his opinion, based on his aquatic vet.
practice for the last 12 years, not mine. It makes sense though, although
granted it is anecdotal.
BTW, The other causes of "swollen belly" are fecal/roe impaction, cystic
kidney, tumor, abscess, etc.
I'm not saying you need to buy $20 per pound fish food!!
I am saying I would rather buy a few higher quality feeds, mix them for a
varied diet (along with household veggies, etc), and feed less in total
calories, than to feed more calories of a lesser quality food that has
proteins, etc that may not be as efficiently utilized, which results in
fatty deposition in the liver and in the belly.
Size and speed/amount of growth are not necessarily synonymous with health
and longevity.
All that being said, I think are plenty of high quality foods available,
with prices that vary. I would not recommend any one brand, as I have never
seen a head to head comparison of foods reviewing their impact on the above
factors (health (immunity issues), and longevity)
Happy ponding,
Greg


"~ Windsong ~" wrote in message
...
In the last chapter: DesertPond picked up the keyboard and pecked out:
:: Anyone in Arizona know a feed supplier that carries Catfish food?
:: My guys are getting bigger and my wallet's getting thinner. :-(
===================
Check on the net or your Yellow Pages for any feed or farm equipment
stores
in your area - start calling around! The place that sells it closest to
me
is Tractor Supply.
--
Carol.......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~{@






See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Well said Greg!

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Gregory Young" wrote in message
et...
Ingrid, I hope you are sitting down, as this time you and I agree on a
topic! (I mean that in a positive way, not negative, just to clarify).
Food quality does matter!
Yes, any animal can survive, eating almost any non harmful foodstuff,
regardless of its nutritional value. The animals will grow, mature and
eventually die, just as others eating a different more balanced foodstuff.
Size though can be deceiving. Just look what is happening in this country
with obesity. It is a national epidemic.
Medical studies have shown its not just lack of activity (esp. in
children/young adults), nor is it just the amount of food consumed (total
daily caloric intake) but it is related to the quality of our food.
Fats in the diet don't lead to obesity anywhere near as much as some of
the
carbohydrates do!
In mammals, fats are utilized primarily for energy. If there are not fatty
calories available, then stored carbohydrates are utilized.
Excess carbohydrates are stored as fat, once glycogen storage is maxed
out.
As most USA diets have excess calories, the excess is stored as adipose
tissue (fat) for later use by the body when there is inadequate caloric
intake to meet energy needs (which rarely occurs in the average US diets
hence the obesity).
Yes kids grow into adults, and they are big and seemingly healthy (like
our
fish), yet many are getting early cancers, heart disease, many have more
and
more immune related issues like asthma, chronic sinusitis, etc, etc, which
we (the medical profession) finally have realized has a major dietary
component to it, in addition to genetics.
So how does this relate to fish?
I am not an expert of fish food. I do know the percentages of components
that should be in a good quality diet; the difference between the sources
of
lipids (fats), (with fish oil being preferred); the differences between
digestibility of various heat stabilized vit C products; as well as
understanding the facts behind the hype about color enhancement and immune
stabilizing additions; etc, etc., but I am not a breeder/commercial
grower,
and have not had the experience some in this NG have.
That being said, I have read quite a few articles on feeds available, and
growth studies etc. None of them however, at least any of the ones I have
seen, address long term health/longevity.
At a wet lab Dr. Johnson stated, (and I think he probably has written this
somewhere I am quite sure), that when evaluating the causes of "swollen
belly" in Koi (vs. dropsy which has a whole different set of causes, and
you
usually call immediately tell the 2 apart as in dropsy the scales stand
out
away from the body) the most frequent cause of "swollen belly" he has seen
is fatty liver, due to poor diet, specifically "due to feeding of catfish
food to Koi". That is his quote and his opinion, based on his aquatic vet.
practice for the last 12 years, not mine. It makes sense though, although
granted it is anecdotal.
BTW, The other causes of "swollen belly" are fecal/roe impaction, cystic
kidney, tumor, abscess, etc.
I'm not saying you need to buy $20 per pound fish food!!
I am saying I would rather buy a few higher quality feeds, mix them for a
varied diet (along with household veggies, etc), and feed less in total
calories, than to feed more calories of a lesser quality food that has
proteins, etc that may not be as efficiently utilized, which results in
fatty deposition in the liver and in the belly.
Size and speed/amount of growth are not necessarily synonymous with health
and longevity.
All that being said, I think are plenty of high quality foods available,
with prices that vary. I would not recommend any one brand, as I have
never
seen a head to head comparison of foods reviewing their impact on the
above
factors (health (immunity issues), and longevity)
Happy ponding,
Greg


"~ Windsong ~" wrote in message
...
In the last chapter: DesertPond picked up the keyboard and pecked out:
:: Anyone in Arizona know a feed supplier that carries Catfish food?
:: My guys are getting bigger and my wallet's getting thinner. :-(
===================
Check on the net or your Yellow Pages for any feed or farm equipment
stores
in your area - start calling around! The place that sells it closest to
me
is Tractor Supply.
--
Carol.......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~{@

~ Windsong ~ wrote:
In the last chapter: John Rutz picked up the keyboard and pecked out:

wrote:
My pets are worth a buck or even two bucks a year each for
::: food. Ingrid )
~~~~~~~~~~
:: -- a buck or two ayear for food ? so that means you feed them
:: what 1/2
:: ounce of food a year since most Koi feed is 25 or so $ a lb???????
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was also wondering about her "buck a year" comment. One of the cheapest
koi foods I can find in my area of middle TN is made by Misty Mountain and
costs $32.99 for a 10 lb bag. That bag is gone in about a month. We feed
here from early April until sometime in November. That can run us around
$260 bucks a year, give or take a few dollars. Uh, no thanks. :-) I buy
one of these overpriced bags a year for the young goldfish and smaller koi
that can't manage the catfish chow. As soon as they're mouths are large
enough guess which feed they go for????

Yes,... the catfish food!!!!


--

My pond pigs wipe out a 20 lb bag every month I would try the catfish
food but its not available here, did try trout food as someone in the
warehouse shipped the wrong bag but it went rancid as it was hi in fish
oils ( did make good garden fertilizer tho )



John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I have read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they cannot digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted before the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex and land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose. They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of low fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and fats they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at room temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have found ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available to put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn develop fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or the fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems show up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get the high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who is
a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI. Why
do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other plant
that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins, minerals,
etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes catfish
foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president of
the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants to
know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and yet
it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the same
thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the truth
for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I surely
will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...
The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief
indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I have
read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they cannot
digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they
secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based
adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted before
the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains
digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the
intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex and
land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.
They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of low
fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and fats
they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very
fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are
typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at room
temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have found
ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available to
put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn develop
fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or the
fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver
disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems show
up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has
never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get the
high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

What she is saying maybe true for wild Carp and Koi...

How many times have you been to a wild koi pond and found naturally occuring
bags/boxes/containers of koi food.

Diets of Wild and Captitive Fish should not be compared
"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who
is
a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI. Why
do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other
plant
that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins, minerals,
etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes catfish
foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president of
the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants
to
know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and
yet
it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the same
thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the truth
for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I surely
will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...
The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief
indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I
have
read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they cannot
digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they
secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based
adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted before
the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains
digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the
intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex and
land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.
They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of low
fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots
of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and fats
they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very
fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are
typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at
room
temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have
found
ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available
to
put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn develop
fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or the
fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver
disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems show
up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has
never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get the
high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

First John,

There is no such thing as wild KOI. KOI are the domesticated variety. The
only thing that she says about wild carp is that they have a brief life in
the wild.

She then goes into talking about protein needed by KOI; 'nough said. She
is still wrong. This is getting laughable.

Tom L.L.
"john.stoddard" wrote in message
news
What she is saying maybe true for wild Carp and Koi...

How many times have you been to a wild koi pond and found naturally
occuring
bags/boxes/containers of koi food.

Diets of Wild and Captitive Fish should not be compared
"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who
is
a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI.
Why
do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other
plant
that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins,
minerals,
etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes
catfish
foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president
of
the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants
to
know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and
yet
it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the
same
thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the
truth
for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I
surely
will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...
The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief
indeed. There is
a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I
have
read says
koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they
cannot
digest
complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they
secrete
digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based
adaptations help
us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted
before
the food
mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains
digestive
enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the
intestines. Land
based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex
and
land based
foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.
They have
evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of
low
fiber,
nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots
of
fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and
fats
they need
from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large
bolus.
Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very
fast if food
is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are
typically used
in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at
room
temp.
Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have
found
ways of
pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available
to
put size
and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn
develop
fatty livers.
I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or
the
fact that the
food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver
disease. In any
case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems
show
up.
OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has
never found
fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in
their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get
the
high
protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I visited a Large pond a few years ago at a resort that had several 36"
+ carp that did quite well on popcorn, that was all they were being fed

John Rutz

Tom La Bron wrote:
First John,

There is no such thing as wild KOI. KOI are the domesticated variety. The
only thing that she says about wild carp is that they have a brief life in
the wild.

She then goes into talking about protein needed by KOI; 'nough said. She
is still wrong. This is getting laughable.

Tom L.L.
"john.stoddard" wrote in message
news
What she is saying maybe true for wild Carp and Koi...

How many times have you been to a wild koi pond and found naturally

occuring

bags/boxes/containers of koi food.

Diets of Wild and Captitive Fish should not be compared
"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...

Excuse me Ingrid,

Please, give us just one meaningful scientific reference that "supports"
what you are touting. Please don't use the Canadian professor again who

is

a salmon and trout specialist and has never worked with Carp or KOI.

Why

do you insist on continuing to spout this drivel. Algae is made up of
cellulose which also makes up the majority of Spirulina, and any other

plant

that carp eat whether it is aquatic or land based.

Most catfish foods have the same ingredients including vitamins,

minerals,

etc as the food that you are always touting, in fact, Rangan makes

catfish

foods and the process is very similar. I have spoken to the president

of

the company.

Dr. Werner Steffens, Dr. Roland Billard, and Dr. Robert Stickney and Dr.
John Halver all say that KOI and carp should have 28 to 32% protein to
maintain these fish. All of these men are Aquaculturists and fish
nutritionist and I have mentioned this to you and any one else who wants

to

know what is the right thing to feed their fish over and over again and

yet

it doesn't seem to soak in. The SRAC also has reports out saying the

same

thing and still you refuse to do any real searching to find out the

truth

for yourself.

One of these days, you will realize how wrong you have been, but I

surely

will not be hold my breath and waiting for it to happen.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
wrote in message
...

The average age of wild carp live in those european rivers is brief

indeed. There is

a difference between just getting enough and thriving. Everything I

have

read says

koi need protein to build muscles and fat for energy. That they

cannot

digest

complex carbohydrates.
Koi teeth are not made for thorough mastication of foods, nor do they

secrete

digestive juices into their mouth while they chew. Our land based

adaptations help

us start pre-digesting our food so the nutrients can be extracted

before

the food

mass exits our body.
Koi dont have a true stomach, they have a pyloric ceca which contains

digestive

enzymes and their liver and pancreas secrete enzymes right into the

intestines. Land

based animals like us produce acids that start the breakdown complex

and

land based

foods in the large stomach.
Everything koi have evolved to eat is wet with little to no cellulose.

They have

evolved to be a perpetual eating machine. They eat small amounts of

low

fiber,

nutrient rich foods all day long, not big chunks of dry food with lots

of

fiber/filler. Fiber does not help them digest out the protein and

fats

they need

from the mass of food moving through their intestines in a large

bolus.

Koi are adapted to digesting simple fats, the kind that go rancid very

fast if food

is sitting around in a warehouse. But corn oil and vegetable oils are

typically used

in cheap fish farm foods because they are cheap and dont go rancid at

room

temp.

Manufacturers of food for farmers that grow food fish (catfish) have

found

ways of

pre-digesting the complex carbohydrates and fats so they are available

to

put size

and bulk on catfish quickly. People do report fish fed on corn

develop

fatty livers.

I dont know if this is directly related to the corn in the food, or

the

fact that the

food could be rancid anyway and rancid oils will cause fatty liver

disease. In any

case, food fish are processed and in the stores before any problems

show

up.

OTOH, Jo Ann, who routinely does necropsies on GF and koi says she has

never found

fatty deposits in fish fed on high protein, high fat diets.
Ingrid

"Phyllis and Jim Hurley" wrote:
I suspect that carp in european rivers were pretty flexible in

their feeding habits and that it may have been hard for them to get

the

high

protein diets we feed...don't know, just a guess.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.







--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com