Yes, I would dig out the contaminated dirt.




On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:50:24 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
wrote:

I'm glad to hear that the fish-killing problem has been identified.

However, IMHO, the next step would be to deal with the
pesticide-contaminated soil.

Stepping down from my soap box for tonight,

[sorry, it's been a tough week for me -- started with blaster worm & ended
with blackout-stranded relatives I was unable to reach because of blackout,
etc.]

G'night all,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"Timothy Tom" wrote in message
. com...
EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

MatO,

You are correct, according to Russo and Thurston in a 1991 study found that
KOI can sustain ammonia levels of 2.2 ppm for 96 hours before dying. Of
course, this does not mean that they won't be affected in some ways with
ammonia burns etc. and that some weaker fish may die sooner, but, for the
most part health fish can live in the environment for this short period.

Also, it should be considered that ammonia is very lethal and should be
maintained below .5ppm. Ammonia is more lethal at high pH while Nitrites
are more lethal a lower pH.

As far as I can see by the thread Tim's Ammonia is no where near lethal
levels.

Tom L.L.
"MattO" wrote in message
...

"john rutz" wrote in message
...
Timothy Tom wrote:
TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:

O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two hours.
Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48 hours,
so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.

The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured at
perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at between
.25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.


-- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico


Tom,
I don't buy the ammonia theory.
0.25 -0.5 ppm ammonia is not that severe, certainly not bad enought to
kill
so quickly.
If it were no fish would ever survive a cycle, right?
Temp & pH factor into toxicity of ammonia, but extrapolating from table in
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling...w-much-ammonia
pH of 7.7, even at 83F, 0.5 ppm is not off the chart, is it?
Count me in the leaching septic or fertilizers camp
~ MattO

(Timothy Tom) wrote:

EUREKA!!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!

Approximately a year ago we had a wasp problem in the sunroom window
which is right next to the pond. I sprayed loads of wasp killer spray
onto the window, and it dripped down onto the soil (directly next to
the pond) I was very careful not to get the spray into the pond, but
I distinctly remember the wasp spray dripping down onto the plants and
the soil next to the pond since I remember the wasp spray states that
it is extremely toxic to aquatic life. Well anyway nothing happened
to the fish (until this recent problem).

When the autorefill got inadvertantly turned off and then back on, the
autorefill apparently malfunctioned so that the valve does not
completely turn off water flow into the pond. The pond continually is
filled and overfills to the point where water can flow out the pond
bulkheads carrying the waterfall tubing and electrical cords directly
to the area where the wasp spray landed. Therefore there is
communication between the pond water and the area where the wasp spray
landed.

I have emptied and washed the pond again, and will refill, and turn
off the water before it reaches the pond bulkheads. I think I have
found the answer. Thanks for all the input and info!


A follow up question: when you put water from the pond into a bowl
and lost a fish, did you treat the water with dechlor after it was in
the bowl?

dont you have a way to check for chlorine?

(Timothy Tom) wrote:

Well right on schedule, within two hours the fish is just about dead.
Something new that I have noticed is that the auto-refill appears to
never shut off. My LAST POSSIBLE explanation is that the auto-refill
continues to allow chlorinated water to flow into the pond which kills
the fish within a couple of hours. This last time, I am going to
empty the pond, and refill it partially and then turn the auto-refill
system off.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

tdtom30,
I just now noticed the numeral at the end of
your name. Since most of my far flung extended family use the same number I'm
wondering if you aren't one of us?
If this doesn't make any sense then you probably aren't ;-)


k30a
and the watergardening labradors
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

Tom,
Thanks, but to clarify, and to any impressionable newbies still following
this thread, let me add that like Tom, I do not condone or recommend
exposing any fish to any measurable levels of ammonia. In small levels it
harms and compromises fish, in higher levels it just kills. And IMHO
nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any measurable
ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that may
prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.

And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship. I just felt the need to respond to
several people who had posted things like "that amount of ammonia is deadly
". So in pointing Timothy Tom to the reference on theKrib suggesting that
the levels reported were not high enough to explain the repeated sudden
deaths, I should have added - Slow torturous horrible death - yes
probably - just not sudden death.
~ MattO

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
MatO,

You are correct, according to Russo and Thurston in a 1991 study found
that
KOI can sustain ammonia levels of 2.2 ppm for 96 hours before dying. Of
course, this does not mean that they won't be affected in some ways with
ammonia burns etc. and that some weaker fish may die sooner, but, for the
most part health fish can live in the environment for this short period.

Also, it should be considered that ammonia is very lethal and should be
maintained below .5ppm. Ammonia is more lethal at high pH while Nitrites
are more lethal a lower pH.

As far as I can see by the thread Tim's Ammonia is no where near lethal
levels.

Tom L.L.
"MattO" wrote in message
...

"john rutz" wrote in message
...
Timothy Tom wrote:
TEST RESULTS of Deadly Pond Water:

O.K. I tested the pond water which killed a goldfish within two
hours.
Please note that this water has been sitting there for over 48
hours,
so it is not exactly the same water that killed the fish.

The pH measured at 7.7 using Tetra test kit, the nitrate measured
at
perhaps 1 PPM (color between zero and the 2 PPM color on the color
scale) using Salifert test kit, the total ammonia measured at
between
.25 and .5 PPM using a Tetra test kit.


-- that amount of amonia is deadly if i remember correctley

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico


Tom,
I don't buy the ammonia theory.
0.25 -0.5 ppm ammonia is not that severe, certainly not bad enought to
kill
so quickly.
If it were no fish would ever survive a cycle, right?
Temp & pH factor into toxicity of ammonia, but extrapolating from table
in
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling...w-much-ammonia
pH of 7.7, even at 83F, 0.5 ppm is not off the chart, is it?
Count me in the leaching septic or fertilizers camp
~ MattO

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:57:37 GMT, "MattO" wrote:

And IMHO nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any measurable
ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that may
prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.

From the KHA program we learned that in cases of ammonia, doing water
changes could make things worst. This surprised me to, but as you mention:

And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship.

This is where people get in trouble with ammonia showing on the test and
doing a water change. Take the pond that has had a pH crash, bio-filtration
stops as the bio-bugs don't like that low pH either, thus the ammonia
reading goes up. The ammonia though isn't toxic, or is less so, the lower
the pH. So if you do a large water change, upping that pH suddenly the
ammonia becomes toxic. Better is to detox the ammonia with a product like
Amquel or similar. Nitrite can be overcome with salt in the pond. (I do
believe there is a formula regarding how much salt to nitrite reading, I
think someone even posted that here not too long ago.) Anyway, doing these
things (addition of amquel & salt) allows for the water change and also
does not slow the cycle, if that is the reason for the spikes. If it's a pH
crash, then we do a KH check and fit that too. ) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

In article ,
(Timothy Tom) writes:

There is not a whole lot else to test now.


how is the pond edged? could a plant (weed) be leaching something into the
water? how about spraying for mosquitoes. having lived in TX for 20 years
they sprayed at night. could it be that spray has settled on edging? plants
in the pond?

BTW my fish had no problems with 85 degree water, but I would add a spitted to
help keep it cooler, never lost a fish.

Just a few more thoughts.
Karen
Zone 5
Ashland, OH
http://hometown.aol.com/kmam1/MyPond/MyPond.html
My Art Studio at
http://members.aol.com/kmmstudios/K....M.Studios.html
for email remove the extra extention

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
s.com...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:57:37 GMT, "MattO"
wrote:

And IMHO nitrites last longer and are even worse. In the presence of any
measurable
ammonia or nitrite I will always recommend large, repeated water changes
until levels are at lowest measurable reading on the test kit. Yes that
may
prolong the cycle - so what - the fish live.

From the KHA program we learned that in cases of ammonia, doing water
changes could make things worst. This surprised me to, but as you mention:

And I can't make any claim of actually understanding the science behind
temp/pH/ammonia toxicity relationship.

This is where people get in trouble with ammonia showing on the test and
doing a water change. Take the pond that has had a pH crash,
bio-filtration
stops as the bio-bugs don't like that low pH either, thus the ammonia
reading goes up. The ammonia though isn't toxic, or is less so, the lower
the pH. So if you do a large water change, upping that pH suddenly the
ammonia becomes toxic. Better is to detox the ammonia with a product like
Amquel or similar. Nitrite can be overcome with salt in the pond. (I do
believe there is a formula regarding how much salt to nitrite reading, I
think someone even posted that here not too long ago.) Anyway, doing these
things (addition of amquel & salt) allows for the water change and also
does not slow the cycle, if that is the reason for the spikes. If it's a
pH
crash, then we do a KH check and fit that too. ) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Jan,
Interesting info - thanks
As an indoor goldfishkeeper admittedly out of my depth out in the pond, I
plea no contest to over-generalization always recommend massive water
changes to manage ammonia. This thread is crossposted to both groups, & I
lurk out of RAFG... I may be in to deep. I speak only from my own experience
with indoor tanks and fancy goldfish.

Your advice (relying on ammo-lock type products) makes good sense during
ammonia phase of cycle but in my (indoor) experience, (apparently gifted
with suitable pH) ammonia phase is tolerable with big WCs. Its the nitrite
phase that takes the most time & the greater toll on the fish. IME nitrite
spike is so fast, so big and so long only huge water changes prevent certain
death. In your experience will salt alone detox high levels of nitrite? Is
nitrite still measurable after salt treatment (like nessler & salicylate
ammonia test is after ammo-lock) and at what levels would you recommend
water change?
~ MattO

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:39:16 GMT, "MattO" wrote:

Jan,
Interesting info - thanks
As an indoor goldfishkeeper admittedly out of my depth out in the pond, I
plea no contest to over-generalization always recommend massive water
changes to manage ammonia. This thread is crossposted to both groups, & I
lurk out of RAFG... I may be in to deep. I speak only from my own experience
with indoor tanks and fancy goldfish.

Your advice (relying on ammo-lock type products) makes good sense during
ammonia phase of cycle but in my (indoor) experience, (apparently gifted
with suitable pH) ammonia phase is tolerable with big WCs. Its the nitrite
phase that takes the most time & the greater toll on the fish. IME nitrite
spike is so fast, so big and so long only huge water changes prevent certain
death. In your experience will salt alone detox high levels of nitrite?

Well, while cycling my Q-tank my nitrite was off the test kit chart and I
had salt over 0.3%, the fish survived, but I'm not even sure that was
enough salt. Hopefully the person who showed nitrite to salt ratio chart
will post that again.

Regarding aquariums though, having a few goldfish ones myself, I agree it
seems to be easier to do WCs, but I had one stubborn tank that would not
cycle after I brought the fish back from a show, and it wasn't till someone
here said to stop the daily WCs and use my pond Amquel, took only a couple
of days after that to see marked improvement in the cycle.

Even in aquariums you can get in trouble with the ammonia/pH situation. In
a case of the right hand (me) forgetting what the left hand did (my son).
My son takes care of the filters, and he cleaned one just a day or two
before I did my routine WCs on all the tanks. Because my KH seems to
decrease after several WCs I usually add a little baking soda and this
happened to be the WC when it was needed. Next morning, dead fish in that
tank. He had cleaned the filter, I had ammonia showing without knowing it,
but the low pH made it non-toxic till I: 1) did the WC and 2) increased the
pH even more with baking soda. I now pay more attention to what filter-boy
does.

nitrite still measurable after salt treatment

Yes.

and at what levels would you recommend
water change? ~ MattO

Probably at 1ppm and up. The nitrite cycle doesn't take near as long as the
ammonia one, so I've experienced. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website