What UV kills
Here's a list of what UV filters kill:
http://www.ultraviolet.com/microorgan.htm Here's how it works: http://www.ultraviolet.com/whatis.htm |
What UV kills
No dispute - none.
It's just that UV's of this type are not the ones that are sold for pond use. Whereas you can argue that UV is UV, the difference in what will be "killed" is in wattage and flow rates. My (reasonably good) UV is a 40 watt number rated for 3,200 gph. I push about 2,600 through it. It's for pond use and can not be compared to the ones you listed. Mine cost low 3 figures; the ones you reference cost mid 4 figures at the same flow rate. Lee Lee "Sam Hopkins" wrote in message .. . Here's a list of what UV filters kill: http://www.ultraviolet.com/microorgan.htm Here's how it works: http://www.ultraviolet.com/whatis.htm |
What UV kills
Not sure where you are going with this. This list was just a list of what UV
filters kill and what UV dose is required to kill them. Sam "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... No dispute - none. It's just that UV's of this type are not the ones that are sold for pond use. Whereas you can argue that UV is UV, the difference in what will be "killed" is in wattage and flow rates. My (reasonably good) UV is a 40 watt number rated for 3,200 gph. I push about 2,600 through it. It's for pond use and can not be compared to the ones you listed. Mine cost low 3 figures; the ones you reference cost mid 4 figures at the same flow rate. Lee Lee "Sam Hopkins" wrote in message .. . Here's a list of what UV filters kill: http://www.ultraviolet.com/microorgan.htm Here's how it works: http://www.ultraviolet.com/whatis.htm |
What UV kills
Sam,
You are talking commercial and Lee is talking residential. This is the difference as I see it. Do Not take the words "commercial and residential" as absolutes... Lee knows what I mean. Big - big difference! Nedra http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836 http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118 "Sam Hopkins" wrote in message .. . Not sure where you are going with this. This list was just a list of what UV filters kill and what UV dose is required to kill them. Sam "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... No dispute - none. It's just that UV's of this type are not the ones that are sold for pond use. Whereas you can argue that UV is UV, the difference in what will be "killed" is in wattage and flow rates. My (reasonably good) UV is a 40 watt number rated for 3,200 gph. I push about 2,600 through it. It's for pond use and can not be compared to the ones you listed. Mine cost low 3 figures; the ones you reference cost mid 4 figures at the same flow rate. Lee Lee "Sam Hopkins" wrote in message .. . Here's a list of what UV filters kill: http://www.ultraviolet.com/microorgan.htm Here's how it works: http://www.ultraviolet.com/whatis.htm |
What UV kills
Oh. I didnt post the link as a link to a UV filter, just info on the things
that could appear in ponds and what the UV dose strength required to kill them. Sam "Nedra" wrote in message nk.net... Sam, You are talking commercial and Lee is talking residential. This is the difference as I see it. Do Not take the words "commercial and residential" as absolutes... Lee knows what I mean. Big - big difference! Nedra http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836 http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118 "Sam Hopkins" wrote in message .. . Not sure where you are going with this. This list was just a list of what UV filters kill and what UV dose is required to kill them. Sam "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... No dispute - none. It's just that UV's of this type are not the ones that are sold for pond use. Whereas you can argue that UV is UV, the difference in what will be "killed" is in wattage and flow rates. My (reasonably good) UV is a 40 watt number rated for 3,200 gph. I push about 2,600 through it. It's for pond use and can not be compared to the ones you listed. Mine cost low 3 figures; the ones you reference cost mid 4 figures at the same flow rate. Lee Lee "Sam Hopkins" wrote in message .. . Here's a list of what UV filters kill: http://www.ultraviolet.com/microorgan.htm Here's how it works: http://www.ultraviolet.com/whatis.htm |
What UV kills
OK Folks,
Here go again. You people seem to think that "Commercial and Industrial" (C&I) UV's are better than residential units. C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV. Needless to say, the C&I bulbs are not used in residential units, mainly because of their expense, plus they are not really any good for germicidal disaffection and the amount of heat that they produce in production of their wavelength. Also, something else to think about is that C&I units usually only have a lamp-life span of about 1,000 hours, while low-pressure bulbs, depending on the manufacturers have a life span of 2,000 to 9,000 hours. In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection. So you are grossly mistaken if you think that C&I units are better, because they are not. Lee, I don't know what you are expecting, but are you filtering your water to the 10 micron range before it goes through the UV. As mentioned in my previous message Turbidity does effect the UV effectiveness. You don't have to filter to that small, but any thing floating through the water and through your UV will effect its effectiveness. Oh, something else, are you a "salter of your pond." Guess what, UV effectiveness is diminished by salt in the water. So, I really don't know what your problem is, but it is not your UV, unless of course, you are trying to get more mileage out of your bulb that is recommended by the manufacturer. They are like fluorescent bulbs which actually decrease in output the longer they are run. Like I said before their lamp-life runs from about 85 days to a little over a year. I am sure that if you look at your instructions for your 3-figure unit it will tell you its lamp-life. HTH, clearing things up. Tom L.L. "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... No dispute - none. It's just that UV's of this type are not the ones that are sold for pond use. Whereas you can argue that UV is UV, the difference in what will be "killed" is in wattage and flow rates. My (reasonably good) UV is a 40 watt number rated for 3,200 gph. I push about 2,600 through it. It's for pond use and can not be compared to the ones you listed. Mine cost low 3 figures; the ones you reference cost mid 4 figures at the same flow rate. Lee Lee "Sam Hopkins" wrote in message .. . Here's a list of what UV filters kill: http://www.ultraviolet.com/microorgan.htm Here's how it works: http://www.ultraviolet.com/whatis.htm |
What UV kills
Tom, I'm not trying to dispute anything other than that the normal 15, 20,
or 40 watt UV units sold for ponds are not "sterilizers". The larger units sold for home or industrial use for potable water WILL "do the trick", but their wattages are considerably higher. And the flow rates are lower. So there's a longer period of time that the water is exposed to the higher wattage. Personally, I haven't had to use my UV this year - so I don't have a problem that needs to be dealt with (at least not at this time!). I turned it on for 3 days earlier this year when I had a cyanobacteria plague, but I knew in my heart that it wouldn't work (and it didn't), so I shut it back down. However, folks who have sick fish and think that a pond-rated UV will nuke the responsible bacteria, or who run a UV and feel "safe" from bacteria, are being sold a bill of goods: a UV with a 40 watt bulb and a flow rate of 3200 gph will kill the "green water" algae, but little else. *That's* the point I was trying to make. Or am I wrong? If so, I will gladly stand corrected - I'm still learning every day, and faulty information should be corrected. Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... OK Folks, Here go again. You people seem to think that "Commercial and Industrial" (C&I) UV's are better than residential units. C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV. Needless to say, the C&I bulbs are not used in residential units, mainly because of their expense, plus they are not really any good for germicidal disaffection and the amount of heat that they produce in production of their wavelength. Also, something else to think about is that C&I units usually only have a lamp-life span of about 1,000 hours, while low-pressure bulbs, depending on the manufacturers have a life span of 2,000 to 9,000 hours. In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection. So you are grossly mistaken if you think that C&I units are better, because they are not. Lee, I don't know what you are expecting, but are you filtering your water to the 10 micron range before it goes through the UV. As mentioned in my previous message Turbidity does effect the UV effectiveness. You don't have to filter to that small, but any thing floating through the water and through your UV will effect its effectiveness. Oh, something else, are you a "salter of your pond." Guess what, UV effectiveness is diminished by salt in the water. So, I really don't know what your problem is, but it is not your UV, unless of course, you are trying to get more mileage out of your bulb that is recommended by the manufacturer. They are like fluorescent bulbs which actually decrease in output the longer they are run. Like I said before their lamp-life runs from about 85 days to a little over a year. I am sure that if you look at your instructions for your 3-figure unit it will tell you its lamp-life. HTH, clearing things up. Tom L.L. |
What UV kills
Lee,
Did you read my message? The C&I are at higher wavelength output and they don't kill even algae. Quote: "C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV." Unquote. Medium and high pressure units aren't used in germicidal applications. As stated before, the following explains, Quote: "In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection." Unquote. You say that it kills only algae, and like I stated that if it kills algae it will virtually 92% of bacteria because that percentage requires less exposure or less wattage-sec than algae. So if it is killing algae it is killing bacteria. I will agree with you that units used for potable water as sterilizers will kill everything because it uses mega-wattages, but here again as stated before these units used by municipalities to sterilize their water are single pass units, so if it is not killed the first time it doesn't get a second chance, which a unit in the pond is a recirc unit and it doesn't have to worry about it getting missed the first time for it is going to have another chance at it as the water is recirculated. As far as flow rate goes that is up the manufacturer, but it does not limit you. Red Sea put out an 18w unit that is suppose to handle 1,200gph. Lifeguard 40watt units are suppose to handle only 1,500gph and yet Aqua UV 40watt units are suppose to handle 2,900gph, but the new Double Helix 36watt units are suppose to only handle 500gph. According to Aquatic Systems Inc. their Smart UV 40watt unit is suppose to be run at 1,574gph for bacteria and 943gph for algae. Bitron 36watt units are suppose to run at 1,190 gph. Granted Tetra UV3 is suppose to be able to run at 4,400gph and the Pro Clear UV30 is suppose to be able to run at 3,600gph. It is interesting that you say that you had a cyanobacteria plague, which a UV would have a hard time battling any way, because it is usually not water borne, so if it is not getting to the UV unit it can't be killed. If the bacteria is not water borne it will not flow through the UV to be killed. A better course of action would have been to flood the pond with lots of air to increase the oxygen levels because cyanobacteria usually get a hold when their is a depletion of oxygen in the environment. If you don't feel your unit is performing like it should reduce its flow to 1,500gph and make sure only filtered water is getting to the UV tube. Like I said before turbidity of the water can affect the effectiveness of the unit. So what unit do you have and have you written the company to voice your dissatisfaction? Hey if you want to get rid of it, send it to me, I know it will work for me because my water is crystal clear. Tom L.L. "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... Tom, I'm not trying to dispute anything other than that the normal 15, 20, or 40 watt UV units sold for ponds are not "sterilizers". The larger units sold for home or industrial use for potable water WILL "do the trick", but their wattages are considerably higher. And the flow rates are lower. So there's a longer period of time that the water is exposed to the higher wattage. Personally, I haven't had to use my UV this year - so I don't have a problem that needs to be dealt with (at least not at this time!). I turned it on for 3 days earlier this year when I had a cyanobacteria plague, but I knew in my heart that it wouldn't work (and it didn't), so I shut it back down. However, folks who have sick fish and think that a pond-rated UV will nuke the responsible bacteria, or who run a UV and feel "safe" from bacteria, are being sold a bill of goods: a UV with a 40 watt bulb and a flow rate of 3200 gph will kill the "green water" algae, but little else. *That's* the point I was trying to make. Or am I wrong? If so, I will gladly stand corrected - I'm still learning every day, and faulty information should be corrected. Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... OK Folks, Here go again. You people seem to think that "Commercial and Industrial" (C&I) UV's are better than residential units. C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV. Needless to say, the C&I bulbs are not used in residential units, mainly because of their expense, plus they are not really any good for germicidal disaffection and the amount of heat that they produce in production of their wavelength. Also, something else to think about is that C&I units usually only have a lamp-life span of about 1,000 hours, while low-pressure bulbs, depending on the manufacturers have a life span of 2,000 to 9,000 hours. In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection. So you are grossly mistaken if you think that C&I units are better, because they are not. Lee, I don't know what you are expecting, but are you filtering your water to the 10 micron range before it goes through the UV. As mentioned in my previous message Turbidity does effect the UV effectiveness. You don't have to filter to that small, but any thing floating through the water and through your UV will effect its effectiveness. Oh, something else, are you a "salter of your pond." Guess what, UV effectiveness is diminished by salt in the water. So, I really don't know what your problem is, but it is not your UV, unless of course, you are trying to get more mileage out of your bulb that is recommended by the manufacturer. They are like fluorescent bulbs which actually decrease in output the longer they are run. Like I said before their lamp-life runs from about 85 days to a little over a year. I am sure that if you look at your instructions for your 3-figure unit it will tell you its lamp-life. HTH, clearing things up. Tom L.L. |
What UV kills
My apologies for ruffling your feathers: I didn't mean to. Things like "the
germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters." is a little too technical for my understanding - I need "little words", I guess. My pond is at saturation for O2 considering the temp: it's heavily aerated 24/7/365. Many people had outbreaks of cyanobacteria/blue-green algae this year, from Canada to Ireland to England to the Netherlands to Florida and all points West. Mine was not the problem that other people had, because I have unrestricted flow to the skimmer (no plants), and enough surface turbulance from the bubbles to break the nasty little islands when they hit the surface. But it's there, just the same. As I stated, I *knew* the UV wouldn't treat it, but I had to try anyway. The UV works perfectly; it just hasn't been needed this year. May I ask another question - and not argumentatively? From your explantation, 92% of the bacteria passing through the light will be killed. .. . so you mean it will kill things like aeromonas and pseudomonas? That a UV will, effectively, "sterilize" a pond - short of viruses, at least? Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... Lee, Did you read my message? The C&I are at higher wavelength output and they don't kill even algae. Quote: "C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV." Unquote. Medium and high pressure units aren't used in germicidal applications. As stated before, the following explains, Quote: "In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection." Unquote. You say that it kills only algae, and like I stated that if it kills algae it will virtually 92% of bacteria because that percentage requires less exposure or less wattage-sec than algae. So if it is killing algae it is killing bacteria. I will agree with you that units used for potable water as sterilizers will kill everything because it uses mega-wattages, but here again as stated before these units used by municipalities to sterilize their water are single pass units, so if it is not killed the first time it doesn't get a second chance, which a unit in the pond is a recirc unit and it doesn't have to worry about it getting missed the first time for it is going to have another chance at it as the water is recirculated. As far as flow rate goes that is up the manufacturer, but it does not limit you. Red Sea put out an 18w unit that is suppose to handle 1,200gph. Lifeguard 40watt units are suppose to handle only 1,500gph and yet Aqua UV 40watt units are suppose to handle 2,900gph, but the new Double Helix 36watt units are suppose to only handle 500gph. According to Aquatic Systems Inc. their Smart UV 40watt unit is suppose to be run at 1,574gph for bacteria and 943gph for algae. Bitron 36watt units are suppose to run at 1,190 gph. Granted Tetra UV3 is suppose to be able to run at 4,400gph and the Pro Clear UV30 is suppose to be able to run at 3,600gph. It is interesting that you say that you had a cyanobacteria plague, which a UV would have a hard time battling any way, because it is usually not water borne, so if it is not getting to the UV unit it can't be killed. If the bacteria is not water borne it will not flow through the UV to be killed. A better course of action would have been to flood the pond with lots of air to increase the oxygen levels because cyanobacteria usually get a hold when their is a depletion of oxygen in the environment. If you don't feel your unit is performing like it should reduce its flow to 1,500gph and make sure only filtered water is getting to the UV tube. Like I said before turbidity of the water can affect the effectiveness of the unit. So what unit do you have and have you written the company to voice your dissatisfaction? Hey if you want to get rid of it, send it to me, I know it will work for me because my water is crystal clear. Tom L.L. "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... Tom, I'm not trying to dispute anything other than that the normal 15, 20, or 40 watt UV units sold for ponds are not "sterilizers". The larger units sold for home or industrial use for potable water WILL "do the trick", but their wattages are considerably higher. And the flow rates are lower. So there's a longer period of time that the water is exposed to the higher wattage. Personally, I haven't had to use my UV this year - so I don't have a problem that needs to be dealt with (at least not at this time!). I turned it on for 3 days earlier this year when I had a cyanobacteria plague, but I knew in my heart that it wouldn't work (and it didn't), so I shut it back down. However, folks who have sick fish and think that a pond-rated UV will nuke the responsible bacteria, or who run a UV and feel "safe" from bacteria, are being sold a bill of goods: a UV with a 40 watt bulb and a flow rate of 3200 gph will kill the "green water" algae, but little else. *That's* the point I was trying to make. Or am I wrong? If so, I will gladly stand corrected - I'm still learning every day, and faulty information should be corrected. Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... OK Folks, Here go again. You people seem to think that "Commercial and Industrial" (C&I) UV's are better than residential units. C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV. Needless to say, the C&I bulbs are not used in residential units, mainly because of their expense, plus they are not really any good for germicidal disaffection and the amount of heat that they produce in production of their wavelength. Also, something else to think about is that C&I units usually only have a lamp-life span of about 1,000 hours, while low-pressure bulbs, depending on the manufacturers have a life span of 2,000 to 9,000 hours. In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection. So you are grossly mistaken if you think that C&I units are better, because they are not. Lee, I don't know what you are expecting, but are you filtering your water to the 10 micron range before it goes through the UV. As mentioned in my previous message Turbidity does effect the UV effectiveness. You don't have to filter to that small, but any thing floating through the water and through your UV will effect its effectiveness. Oh, something else, are you a "salter of your pond." Guess what, UV effectiveness is diminished by salt in the water. So, I really don't know what your problem is, but it is not your UV, unless of course, you are trying to get more mileage out of your bulb that is recommended by the manufacturer. They are like fluorescent bulbs which actually decrease in output the longer they are run. Like I said before their lamp-life runs from about 85 days to a little over a year. I am sure that if you look at your instructions for your 3-figure unit it will tell you its lamp-life. HTH, clearing things up. Tom L.L. |
What UV kills
Sorry Lee,
You have always presented yourself as a learned person, so I figured that you understood. The number 250-280, 265, and 254 refer to the wavelength of the light in Nano-meters. UV light like X-rays are short wave length. The term germicidal effectiveness refers to the wavelength(s) that most are absorbed by the material to damage the DNA and RNA and or sterilizes or kills the germs. It is kind of like when you go out to sunbathe on a sunny day. The rays of the sun heat up your body and help to signal you that your are getting hot and maybe sunburning. But on a cloudy you can still get a sunburned, because, actually it is the UV that is passing through the clouds, because of its short wavelength and subsequent high energy, that hits your body and gives you a sunburn due to to long of and exposure because of the absence of the other radiation from the sun. Most people get their worst sunburns on cloudy days. Most cyanobacteria can be killed with a UV sterilizer but you need at least the level of 420,000 micro-watts-seconds/cm2 to do it and that is a lot of energy. The problem with blue algae is getting it through the UV sterilizer. Cyanobacteria colonies thrive in warm, nutrient-rich waters such as fish ponds and polluted lakes and estuaries. The key to this sentence is polluted and that is what happens to fish ponds (technically) that are over stocked and have generous keepers who feed fish all the time. Having the airstone can help, by making the environment for blue-algae inhospitable. No where can I find a specific mention of aeromonas being killed by UV, but there are kill values of pseudomonas which vary between 3,900 to 10,500 micro-watt-sec/cm2. Like I said previously, if it is water borne like algae, 92% of bacteria are killed by a UV device that gets rid of an algae bloom, because their kill ranges are less than that of algae HTH Tom L.L.. "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... My apologies for ruffling your feathers: I didn't mean to. Things like "the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters." is a little too technical for my understanding - I need "little words", I guess. My pond is at saturation for O2 considering the temp: it's heavily aerated 24/7/365. Many people had outbreaks of cyanobacteria/blue-green algae this year, from Canada to Ireland to England to the Netherlands to Florida and all points West. Mine was not the problem that other people had, because I have unrestricted flow to the skimmer (no plants), and enough surface turbulance from the bubbles to break the nasty little islands when they hit the surface. But it's there, just the same. As I stated, I *knew* the UV wouldn't treat it, but I had to try anyway. The UV works perfectly; it just hasn't been needed this year. May I ask another question - and not argumentatively? From your explantation, 92% of the bacteria passing through the light will be killed. . . so you mean it will kill things like aeromonas and pseudomonas? That a UV will, effectively, "sterilize" a pond - short of viruses, at least? Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... Lee, Did you read my message? The C&I are at higher wavelength output and they don't kill even algae. Quote: "C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV." Unquote. Medium and high pressure units aren't used in germicidal applications. As stated before, the following explains, Quote: "In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection." Unquote. You say that it kills only algae, and like I stated that if it kills algae it will virtually 92% of bacteria because that percentage requires less exposure or less wattage-sec than algae. So if it is killing algae it is killing bacteria. I will agree with you that units used for potable water as sterilizers will kill everything because it uses mega-wattages, but here again as stated before these units used by municipalities to sterilize their water are single pass units, so if it is not killed the first time it doesn't get a second chance, which a unit in the pond is a recirc unit and it doesn't have to worry about it getting missed the first time for it is going to have another chance at it as the water is recirculated. As far as flow rate goes that is up the manufacturer, but it does not limit you. Red Sea put out an 18w unit that is suppose to handle 1,200gph. Lifeguard 40watt units are suppose to handle only 1,500gph and yet Aqua UV 40watt units are suppose to handle 2,900gph, but the new Double Helix 36watt units are suppose to only handle 500gph. According to Aquatic Systems Inc. their Smart UV 40watt unit is suppose to be run at 1,574gph for bacteria and 943gph for algae. Bitron 36watt units are suppose to run at 1,190 gph. Granted Tetra UV3 is suppose to be able to run at 4,400gph and the Pro Clear UV30 is suppose to be able to run at 3,600gph. It is interesting that you say that you had a cyanobacteria plague, which a UV would have a hard time battling any way, because it is usually not water borne, so if it is not getting to the UV unit it can't be killed. If the bacteria is not water borne it will not flow through the UV to be killed. A better course of action would have been to flood the pond with lots of air to increase the oxygen levels because cyanobacteria usually get a hold when their is a depletion of oxygen in the environment. If you don't feel your unit is performing like it should reduce its flow to 1,500gph and make sure only filtered water is getting to the UV tube. Like I said before turbidity of the water can affect the effectiveness of the unit. So what unit do you have and have you written the company to voice your dissatisfaction? Hey if you want to get rid of it, send it to me, I know it will work for me because my water is crystal clear. Tom L.L. "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... Tom, I'm not trying to dispute anything other than that the normal 15, 20, or 40 watt UV units sold for ponds are not "sterilizers". The larger units sold for home or industrial use for potable water WILL "do the trick", but their wattages are considerably higher. And the flow rates are lower. So there's a longer period of time that the water is exposed to the higher wattage. Personally, I haven't had to use my UV this year - so I don't have a problem that needs to be dealt with (at least not at this time!). I turned it on for 3 days earlier this year when I had a cyanobacteria plague, but I knew in my heart that it wouldn't work (and it didn't), so I shut it back down. However, folks who have sick fish and think that a pond-rated UV will nuke the responsible bacteria, or who run a UV and feel "safe" from bacteria, are being sold a bill of goods: a UV with a 40 watt bulb and a flow rate of 3200 gph will kill the "green water" algae, but little else. *That's* the point I was trying to make. Or am I wrong? If so, I will gladly stand corrected - I'm still learning every day, and faulty information should be corrected. Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... OK Folks, Here go again. You people seem to think that "Commercial and Industrial" (C&I) UV's are better than residential units. C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV. Needless to say, the C&I bulbs are not used in residential units, mainly because of their expense, plus they are not really any good for germicidal disaffection and the amount of heat that they produce in production of their wavelength. Also, something else to think about is that C&I units usually only have a lamp-life span of about 1,000 hours, while low-pressure bulbs, depending on the manufacturers have a life span of 2,000 to 9,000 hours. In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection. So you are grossly mistaken if you think that C&I units are better, because they are not. Lee, I don't know what you are expecting, but are you filtering your water to the 10 micron range before it goes through the UV. As mentioned in my previous message Turbidity does effect the UV effectiveness. You don't have to filter to that small, but any thing floating through the water and through your UV will effect its effectiveness. Oh, something else, are you a "salter of your pond." Guess what, UV effectiveness is diminished by salt in the water. So, I really don't know what your problem is, but it is not your UV, unless of course, you are trying to get more mileage out of your bulb that is recommended by the manufacturer. They are like fluorescent bulbs which actually decrease in output the longer they are run. Like I said before their lamp-life runs from about 85 days to a little over a year. I am sure that if you look at your instructions for your 3-figure unit it will tell you its lamp-life. HTH, clearing things up. Tom L.L. |
What UV kills
Thank you for the simplified explanation. I *am* a (reasonably) learned
individual (I'm learning the hard way not to make "absolute" statements here). It's just that the specifics of light waves have never come into play before, kinda like quantum physics s Thank you again for the "little words". Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... Sorry Lee, You have always presented yourself as a learned person, so I figured that you understood. The number 250-280, 265, and 254 refer to the wavelength of the light in Nano-meters. UV light like X-rays are short wave length. The term germicidal effectiveness refers to the wavelength(s) that most are absorbed by the material to damage the DNA and RNA and or sterilizes or kills the germs. It is kind of like when you go out to sunbathe on a sunny day. The rays of the sun heat up your body and help to signal you that your are getting hot and maybe sunburning. But on a cloudy you can still get a sunburned, because, actually it is the UV that is passing through the clouds, because of its short wavelength and subsequent high energy, that hits your body and gives you a sunburn due to to long of and exposure because of the absence of the other radiation from the sun. Most people get their worst sunburns on cloudy days. Most cyanobacteria can be killed with a UV sterilizer but you need at least the level of 420,000 micro-watts-seconds/cm2 to do it and that is a lot of energy. The problem with blue algae is getting it through the UV sterilizer. Cyanobacteria colonies thrive in warm, nutrient-rich waters such as fish ponds and polluted lakes and estuaries. The key to this sentence is polluted and that is what happens to fish ponds (technically) that are over stocked and have generous keepers who feed fish all the time. Having the airstone can help, by making the environment for blue-algae inhospitable. No where can I find a specific mention of aeromonas being killed by UV, but there are kill values of pseudomonas which vary between 3,900 to 10,500 micro-watt-sec/cm2. Like I said previously, if it is water borne like algae, 92% of bacteria are killed by a UV device that gets rid of an algae bloom, because their kill ranges are less than that of algae HTH Tom L.L.. "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... My apologies for ruffling your feathers: I didn't mean to. Things like "the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters." is a little too technical for my understanding - I need "little words", I guess. My pond is at saturation for O2 considering the temp: it's heavily aerated 24/7/365. Many people had outbreaks of cyanobacteria/blue-green algae this year, from Canada to Ireland to England to the Netherlands to Florida and all points West. Mine was not the problem that other people had, because I have unrestricted flow to the skimmer (no plants), and enough surface turbulance from the bubbles to break the nasty little islands when they hit the surface. But it's there, just the same. As I stated, I *knew* the UV wouldn't treat it, but I had to try anyway. The UV works perfectly; it just hasn't been needed this year. May I ask another question - and not argumentatively? From your explantation, 92% of the bacteria passing through the light will be killed. . . so you mean it will kill things like aeromonas and pseudomonas? That a UV will, effectively, "sterilize" a pond - short of viruses, at least? Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... Lee, Did you read my message? The C&I are at higher wavelength output and they don't kill even algae. Quote: "C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV." Unquote. Medium and high pressure units aren't used in germicidal applications. As stated before, the following explains, Quote: "In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection." Unquote. You say that it kills only algae, and like I stated that if it kills algae it will virtually 92% of bacteria because that percentage requires less exposure or less wattage-sec than algae. So if it is killing algae it is killing bacteria. I will agree with you that units used for potable water as sterilizers will kill everything because it uses mega-wattages, but here again as stated before these units used by municipalities to sterilize their water are single pass units, so if it is not killed the first time it doesn't get a second chance, which a unit in the pond is a recirc unit and it doesn't have to worry about it getting missed the first time for it is going to have another chance at it as the water is recirculated. As far as flow rate goes that is up the manufacturer, but it does not limit you. Red Sea put out an 18w unit that is suppose to handle 1,200gph. Lifeguard 40watt units are suppose to handle only 1,500gph and yet Aqua UV 40watt units are suppose to handle 2,900gph, but the new Double Helix 36watt units are suppose to only handle 500gph. According to Aquatic Systems Inc. their Smart UV 40watt unit is suppose to be run at 1,574gph for bacteria and 943gph for algae. Bitron 36watt units are suppose to run at 1,190 gph. Granted Tetra UV3 is suppose to be able to run at 4,400gph and the Pro Clear UV30 is suppose to be able to run at 3,600gph. It is interesting that you say that you had a cyanobacteria plague, which a UV would have a hard time battling any way, because it is usually not water borne, so if it is not getting to the UV unit it can't be killed. If the bacteria is not water borne it will not flow through the UV to be killed. A better course of action would have been to flood the pond with lots of air to increase the oxygen levels because cyanobacteria usually get a hold when their is a depletion of oxygen in the environment. If you don't feel your unit is performing like it should reduce its flow to 1,500gph and make sure only filtered water is getting to the UV tube. Like I said before turbidity of the water can affect the effectiveness of the unit. So what unit do you have and have you written the company to voice your dissatisfaction? Hey if you want to get rid of it, send it to me, I know it will work for me because my water is crystal clear. Tom L.L. "Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ... Tom, I'm not trying to dispute anything other than that the normal 15, 20, or 40 watt UV units sold for ponds are not "sterilizers". The larger units sold for home or industrial use for potable water WILL "do the trick", but their wattages are considerably higher. And the flow rates are lower. So there's a longer period of time that the water is exposed to the higher wattage. Personally, I haven't had to use my UV this year - so I don't have a problem that needs to be dealt with (at least not at this time!). I turned it on for 3 days earlier this year when I had a cyanobacteria plague, but I knew in my heart that it wouldn't work (and it didn't), so I shut it back down. However, folks who have sick fish and think that a pond-rated UV will nuke the responsible bacteria, or who run a UV and feel "safe" from bacteria, are being sold a bill of goods: a UV with a 40 watt bulb and a flow rate of 3200 gph will kill the "green water" algae, but little else. *That's* the point I was trying to make. Or am I wrong? If so, I will gladly stand corrected - I'm still learning every day, and faulty information should be corrected. Lee "Tom La Bron" wrote in message ... OK Folks, Here go again. You people seem to think that "Commercial and Industrial" (C&I) UV's are better than residential units. C&I units are usually Medium to High pressure mercury type bulbs and are used for chemical byproducts and waste water or for the drying of printing inks, lacquers, paints and adhesives. These units are not effective in germicidal action. The wave length of the C&I units are in the 320 n and 440 n meter range, which is well outside of the germicidal effectiveness curve for UV. Needless to say, the C&I bulbs are not used in residential units, mainly because of their expense, plus they are not really any good for germicidal disaffection and the amount of heat that they produce in production of their wavelength. Also, something else to think about is that C&I units usually only have a lamp-life span of about 1,000 hours, while low-pressure bulbs, depending on the manufacturers have a life span of 2,000 to 9,000 hours. In my message on this subject before I told you that the germicidal range of killing UV was 265 n meters with the germicidal effectiveness curve being between 250 n meters and 280 n meters. Low pressure UV bulbs are in all residential UV devices and they put out spectral wave length of 254 n meters of radiation, which is well within the germicidal curve and relatively close to the max peak of 265 n meters. Low pressure UV are the only effective radiation units for germicidal effectiveness in the process of disaffection. So you are grossly mistaken if you think that C&I units are better, because they are not. Lee, I don't know what you are expecting, but are you filtering your water to the 10 micron range before it goes through the UV. As mentioned in my previous message Turbidity does effect the UV effectiveness. You don't have to filter to that small, but any thing floating through the water and through your UV will effect its effectiveness. Oh, something else, are you a "salter of your pond." Guess what, UV effectiveness is diminished by salt in the water. So, I really don't know what your problem is, but it is not your UV, unless of course, you are trying to get more mileage out of your bulb that is recommended by the manufacturer. They are like fluorescent bulbs which actually decrease in output the longer they are run. Like I said before their lamp-life runs from about 85 days to a little over a year. I am sure that if you look at your instructions for your 3-figure unit it will tell you its lamp-life. HTH, clearing things up. Tom L.L. |
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