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Old 30-08-2003, 04:12 AM
O3raledale
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

Hello all,
How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country? I
live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my goldies
be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going? Can I
leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then? Please
let me know your thoughts on this matter.
Thank you all,
-Pat

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Old 30-08-2003, 05:05 AM
Bob in PA
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

Hi Pat,

I live in Levittown, right outside of Philly. I've had ice as thick as
8 inchs on my pond. Is your pond above ground or buried in it? With the
above ground pond your going to have to worry about ice forming on the sides
to, and an above ground pond will get colder a lot quicker too.
You might not want to leave the waterfall/stream running because it
could form an ice dam, and divert the flow of the water out of the pond.

hth,

Bob

--

Check out my pond webpage:
Http://trains99.tripod.com

Click on the My Pond Link under Places to Go



"O3raledale" wrote in message
...
Hello all,
How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country?

I
live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my

goldies
be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?

Can I
leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?

Please
let me know your thoughts on this matter.
Thank you all,
-Pat



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Old 30-08-2003, 07:02 PM
O3raledale
 
Posts: n/a
Default frost lines and shallow ponds

Bob,
Thanks for the reply. My pond is below ground, 4'x6' with a 2' falls and a 10'
stream leading into the pond. I'd like to leave the filter running a while to
see what the ice forms will look like. Or is that a bad idea? so as long as i
keep the airstones going I shouldn't have to worry about a full freeze over.
thats comforting to know. Thanks again for the info.
-Pat


Hi Pat,

I live in Levittown, right outside of Philly. I've had ice as thick as
8 inchs on my pond. Is your pond above ground or buried in it? With the
above ground pond your going to have to worry about ice forming on the sides
to, and an above ground pond will get colder a lot quicker too.
You might not want to leave the waterfall/stream running because it
could form an ice dam, and divert the flow of the water out of the pond.

hth,

Bob

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Old 30-08-2003, 08:02 PM
Chagoi
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

O3raledale wrote:

Hello all,
How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country? I
live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my goldies
be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going? Can I
leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then? Please
let me know your thoughts on this matter.
Thank you all,
-Pat

Hi Pat

Here in Eastern PA, lately we have been getting a frostline from nothing
down
to about 10 inches most years, but I have seen 36" frostline one winter.
Most cities around Allentown require an average depth for building footers
of around 32-40". If I recall correctly. Your best bet is to give a
local plumber or concrete contractor a call and ask what the localfrost
line is.


here are some suggested support depths
( i don't remember where I got this)
Area Depth of Supports (inches)
Albany, New York 42
Albuquerque, New Mexico 18
Anchorage, Alaska 42
Atlanta, Georgia 12
Baltimore, Maryland 18
Bangor, Maine 48
Charleston, West Virginia 24
Columbus, Ohio 32
Denver, Colorado 36
El Paso, Texas 6
Greensboro, North Carolina 12
Knoxville, Tennessee 18
Los Angeles, California 12
Minneapolis, Minnesota 42
Omaha, Nebraska 42
Portland, Oregon 16
Salt Lake City, Utah 36
Tampa, Florida 6
Local requirements may vary

Chagoi

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Old 31-08-2003, 02:02 AM
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

careful you dont drain all the water out of the pond as it may form ice will send it
outside the stream. Ingrid


(O3raledale) wrote:

Bob,
Thanks for the reply. My pond is below ground, 4'x6' with a 2' falls and a 10'
stream leading into the pond. I'd like to leave the filter running a while to
see what the ice forms will look like. Or is that a bad idea? so as long as i
keep the airstones going I shouldn't have to worry about a full freeze over.
thats comforting to know. Thanks again for the info.
-Pat



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.


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Old 01-09-2003, 12:32 AM
Anne Lurie
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

Pat,

I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
more important than the depth of the frost line?

Granted, it's been decades since I lived in PA, and then we didn't have a
pond at all -- although we had, literally, Lake Erie for a backyard!

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC





"O3raledale" wrote in message
...
Hello all,
How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country?

I
live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my

goldies
be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?

Can I
leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?

Please
let me know your thoughts on this matter.
Thank you all,
-Pat



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Old 02-09-2003, 05:02 PM
O3raledale
 
Posts: n/a
Default frost lines and shallow ponds


Pat,

I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
more important than the depth of the frost line?

Granted, it's been decades since I lived in PA, and then we didn't have a
pond at all -- although we had, literally, Lake Erie for a backyard!

Anne Lurie

Anne,
I was thinking that as the winter progressed and got and stayed colder that the
frost line (ie frozen ground) would get deeper and deeper. And I was hoping
that the 18" depth would be deep enough so as not to freeze the pond solid (or
close to it) If it was going to be a danger to the fishies, then I was thinking
of just bringing them in the house into an aquarium. But, it appears from what
I've read here that I should be fine with just an air pump/bubbler with a
couple of air stones submerged in the pond. Although I will keep an eye on it
and run out and get a heater if necessary.
Thanks for your thoughts,
-Pat
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Old 03-09-2003, 04:02 PM
[email protected]
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

the air temp is going to determine how deep the frost is going into the ground.
everyone in the "north" depend to a very great extent on the warm earth (55o) keeping
the water liquid. if the frost goes lower than the depth of the pond it is going to
be like trying to keep an above ground pond thawed. bocu electrical bills. Ingrid

I hate to sound stupid (although I'm getting used to it in my old age!), but
if your pond is only 18" deep, I would think that *air* temperature is a lot
more important than the depth of the frost line?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.
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Old 03-09-2003, 09:12 PM
DaBear
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

Back about 12 years or so, we had a real bad cold snap run through the
Portland Or. area.
My pond at the time was3 feet deep, 12 wide, and agetr a week of sub zero
tems, I had 9 inches of ice on my pond. I enjoyed walking on my pond and
getting a perspective on it I normally would.
The only problem I did have was ice dams in my falls, and a bit of water
loss one night...
Bear


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Old 05-09-2003, 04:22 PM
Doug Swetland
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

O3raledale wrote:

Hello all,
How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country? I
live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my goldies
be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going? Can I
leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then? Please
let me know your thoughts on this matter.
Thank you all,
-Pat


Pat,

You could check with the state department of natural resources (if PA
has one) or the county agricultural agent. They might know something
about average ice depths on ponds.

The frost line in Minnesota is nearly four feet and my partially above
ground pond (10 feet by 15 feet by 3 feet) gets about one foot of ice in
an average year. The real variables are the air temperature and the
amount of snow cover. I usually have a couple of feet of snow on my
pond and that is a great insulator. By March it is hard to tell where
the ice stops and the snow starts.

I use a 1200 watt de-icer to keep a one foot hole (looks like a cave)
open in the ice for gas exchange. It turns on at 32 degrees and off at
34 degrees and uses about the same amount of electricity as my 700 watt
4000 gph pump. The pump is on a timer and only runs 16 hours a day June
through October.

This setup has worked well for six winters. Except for the year the
de-icer sank to the bottom and the hole froze solid. I didn't notice
that for a couple of weeks and all the fish died. I now prop it up with
a column of bricks.

The problem with me bringing the fish indoors is they have to be out by
October and don't get back in until June. What's the point in having
fish in the pond for only four months?

With only 18 inches you don't have much room for error if you get six
inches of ice. The volume of water and number of fish are also
important variables.

I'd give it a shot with the air bubbler and see what happens. If it
doesn't keep a hole open be ready to add a de-icer. However, don't keep
the falls/stream going until it freezes unless you have an automatic
level switch. Otherwise it will freeze some night at 2:00 am and you'll
wake up with an ice skating rink in the back yard, a burnt out pump and
frozen fish for breakfast.

dss

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Old 05-09-2003, 05:22 PM
John Bachman
 
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Default frost lines and shallow ponds

On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:09:54 -0500, Doug Swetland
wrote:

O3raledale wrote:

Hello all,
How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the country? I
live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my goldies
be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going? Can I
leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point of
spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then? Please
let me know your thoughts on this matter.


Your county extension service can tell what has happened in the recent
past but no one can predict the future. The depth of frost depends
upon average temperatures and the amount of snow cover.

Here in Southern New Hampshire last winter was very cold but there was
a substantial snowfall in December that stuck around. That snow
insulated the soil so that the frost did not get very deep. Good
thing too, because my peach trees would probably have croaked if not
for the insulating snow.

There are other variables specific to each site: amount of sun,
slope, soil content, etc.


The bottom line is no one can tell you what you will experience at
your site in coming winters.

JMHO

John

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Old 06-09-2003, 05:02 PM
dkat
 
Posts: n/a
Default frost lines and shallow ponds

Call a builder and ask how deep a foundation has to be (they have to be
built below the frost line). DK
"Doug Swetland" wrote in message
...
O3raledale wrote:

Hello all,
How does one find out what the frost line is in their area of the

country? I
live in Philadelphia, PA. and my pond is only about 18" deep. Will my

goldies
be safe in there over the winter with just a couple of air stones going?

Can I
leave my filter waterfalls/ stream going until it freezes to the point

of
spilling out and then turn off the pump and start the air bubbler then?

Please
let me know your thoughts on this matter.
Thank you all,
-Pat


Pat,

You could check with the state department of natural resources (if PA
has one) or the county agricultural agent. They might know something
about average ice depths on ponds.

The frost line in Minnesota is nearly four feet and my partially above
ground pond (10 feet by 15 feet by 3 feet) gets about one foot of ice in
an average year. The real variables are the air temperature and the
amount of snow cover. I usually have a couple of feet of snow on my
pond and that is a great insulator. By March it is hard to tell where
the ice stops and the snow starts.

I use a 1200 watt de-icer to keep a one foot hole (looks like a cave)
open in the ice for gas exchange. It turns on at 32 degrees and off at
34 degrees and uses about the same amount of electricity as my 700 watt
4000 gph pump. The pump is on a timer and only runs 16 hours a day June
through October.

This setup has worked well for six winters. Except for the year the
de-icer sank to the bottom and the hole froze solid. I didn't notice
that for a couple of weeks and all the fish died. I now prop it up with
a column of bricks.

The problem with me bringing the fish indoors is they have to be out by
October and don't get back in until June. What's the point in having
fish in the pond for only four months?

With only 18 inches you don't have much room for error if you get six
inches of ice. The volume of water and number of fish are also
important variables.

I'd give it a shot with the air bubbler and see what happens. If it
doesn't keep a hole open be ready to add a de-icer. However, don't keep
the falls/stream going until it freezes unless you have an automatic
level switch. Otherwise it will freeze some night at 2:00 am and you'll
wake up with an ice skating rink in the back yard, a burnt out pump and
frozen fish for breakfast.

dss





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