Thw water in my pond has reach 50F, might even be cooler at night time, I
pulled in my UV light, but the water features remain on until it gets too
cold. My fish spend most of the time at the bottom in the deep end or the
smaller ones are hiding in the shallow end under rocks, but they do come up
to play, should I be feeding them if they are still active or just leave
them alone?

Joel.

Superkitt wrote:

Thw water in my pond has reach 50F, might even be cooler at night time, I
pulled in my UV light, but the water features remain on until it gets too
cold. My fish spend most of the time at the bottom in the deep end or the
smaller ones are hiding in the shallow end under rocks, but they do come up
to play, should I be feeding them if they are still active or just leave
them alone?

Joel.


no!
daily feeding 68-70+ water temps.
at 65F only 1-2 x's a week and
60 1 x a week, lower temps do not
feed them at all.

they are at the bottom because its
a tad warmer there for now.


--
http://www.kencofish.com Ken Arnold,
401-781-9642 cell 401-225-0556
Importer/Exporter of Goldfish,Koi,rare Predators
Shipping to legal states/countries only!
Permalon liners, Oase & Supreme Pondmaster pumps

Linux (SuSE 8.2) user #329121

Please Note: No trees or animals were harmed in the
sending of this contaminant free message We do concede
that a signicant number of electrons may have been
inconvenienced

"Superkitt" wrote in message
...
Thw water in my pond has reach 50F, might even be cooler at night time, I
pulled in my UV light, but the water features remain on until it gets too
cold. My fish spend most of the time at the bottom in the deep end or the
smaller ones are hiding in the shallow end under rocks, but they do come
up
to play, should I be feeding them if they are still active or just leave
them alone?


Hey Joel, this topic is one of those that come up often. You are not alone.
I have posted some of the information that I have collected on this topic on
my web site, iheartmypond.com. Check out article,
http://www.iheartmypond.com/topic.asp?aid=23.

BV.

"BenignVanilla" wrote in news:blk59o
:

http://www.iheartmypond.com/topic.asp?aid=23

okay, this might sound a bit unusual, but here it goes.

I had alot of liner left over to cover my small pond, I put wood across the
pond and place the liner over it so the liner would not hit the water,
there is about 6-8 inches of space.

I turned off my main water fall and left a secondary (75gh/hr) pump
splashing water over the surface inside the enclosure leaving only a small
opening where I can look inside or if necessary if a cold front should come
by I can close it up all the way.

is this a sound idea?

Joel

"Superkitt" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote in news:blk59o
:

http://www.iheartmypond.com/topic.asp?aid=23

okay, this might sound a bit unusual, but here it goes.

I had alot of liner left over to cover my small pond, I put wood across
the
pond and place the liner over it so the liner would not hit the water,
there is about 6-8 inches of space.

I turned off my main water fall and left a secondary (75gh/hr) pump
splashing water over the surface inside the enclosure leaving only a small
opening where I can look inside or if necessary if a cold front should
come
by I can close it up all the way.

is this a sound idea?

How much snow do you get in your area? If your structure is flat, once you
get any rain or snow, I would imagine that the upper liner will fill with
water and stretch.

BV.

"Superkitt" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote in news:blk59o
:

http://www.iheartmypond.com/topic.asp?aid=23

okay, this might sound a bit unusual, but here it goes.

I had alot of liner left over to cover my small pond, I put wood across
the
pond and place the liner over it so the liner would not hit the water,
there is about 6-8 inches of space.

I turned off my main water fall and left a secondary (75gh/hr) pump
splashing water over the surface inside the enclosure leaving only a small
opening where I can look inside or if necessary if a cold front should
come
by I can close it up all the way.

is this a sound idea?

How much snow do you get in your area? If your structure is flat, once you
get any rain or snow, I would imagine that the upper liner will fill with
water and stretch.

BV.

Superkitt,

Where is the second pump that you left running drawing its water from? If
it is at the deepest part of the pond you should position it in an area
where the water is shallower. The fish will congregate where the water is
deepest and you do not want to pulling the water from the deepest part of
your pond. You want to leave this area pretty much undisturbed to allow the
water to absorb heat from the ground. If you are constantly pulling water
from the deepest part of the pond you will effect a cooling in that area
making it harder for your fish to sustain their body fat for the winter do
to increased swimming activity. It is a good idea to raise the pump off the
bottom, but leaving it in an area where there is less chance of it freezing
in the ice.

In any event, the whole idea is to leave the water in the deepest part of
the pond where the fish will stay undisturbed by water movement, so it will
absorb warmth from the ground.

HTH

Tom L.L.
"Superkitt" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote in news:blk59o
:

http://www.iheartmypond.com/topic.asp?aid=23

okay, this might sound a bit unusual, but here it goes.

I had alot of liner left over to cover my small pond, I put wood across
the
pond and place the liner over it so the liner would not hit the water,
there is about 6-8 inches of space.

I turned off my main water fall and left a secondary (75gh/hr) pump
splashing water over the surface inside the enclosure leaving only a small
opening where I can look inside or if necessary if a cold front should
come
by I can close it up all the way.

is this a sound idea?

Joel

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 08:04:43 -0500, "Tom La Bron"
wrote:

Superkitt,

Where is the second pump that you left running drawing its water from? If
it is at the deepest part of the pond you should position it in an area
where the water is shallower. The fish will congregate where the water is
deepest and you do not want to pulling the water from the deepest part of
your pond. You want to leave this area pretty much undisturbed to allow the
water to absorb heat from the ground. If you are constantly pulling water
from the deepest part of the pond you will effect a cooling in that area
making it harder for your fish to sustain their body fat for the winter do
to increased swimming activity. It is a good idea to raise the pump off the
bottom, but leaving it in an area where there is less chance of it freezing
in the ice.

In any event, the whole idea is to leave the water in the deepest part of
the pond where the fish will stay undisturbed by water movement, so it will
absorb warmth from the ground.


Is that really true? I do not know the answer but what I do know
causes me to question your theory.

The reason I question it is that water has the very unusual
characteristic of being most dense at 39 degrees F. At temperaturs
above and below that it is less dense. Therefore, if there were no
flow induced by pumps, streams, etc. the water at the bottom of the
pond would be 39 degees F as long as the ground temperature was not
higher than that. If the ground temperature is higher then it does
not matter what you do.

If the ground temperature would get lower than 39 F, as it would in my
section of New Hampshire, then it seems to me that settling of the
dense 39 degree water into the deepest part actually keeps the ground
from freezing.

If that is so, then eventually the water will lose it's heat and
everything freezes. But, there are many days in which the air
temperature is above freezing. That warms the water to it's densest
point (39 F) and actually results in a warm flow from top to bottom.

I guess that now that I have written this and thought it through, you
are correct, the best policy is to leave the deep water alone. A
happy circumstance, being right even if for the wrong reason.

Does anyone see any flaws in the above. I would like to understand
the physics so I can operate my pond properly.

John

John Bachman wrote in
:

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 08:04:43 -0500, "Tom La Bron"
wrote:

Superkitt,

Where is the second pump that you left running drawing its water from?
If it is at the deepest part of the pond you should position it in an
area where the water is shallower. The fish will congregate where the
water is deepest and you do not want to pulling the water from the
deepest part of your pond. You want to leave this area pretty much
undisturbed to allow the water to absorb heat from the ground. If you
are constantly pulling water from the deepest part of the pond you
will effect a cooling in that area making it harder for your fish to
sustain their body fat for the winter do to increased swimming
activity. It is a good idea to raise the pump off the bottom, but
leaving it in an area where there is less chance of it freezing in the
ice.

In any event, the whole idea is to leave the water in the deepest part
of the pond where the fish will stay undisturbed by water movement, so
it will absorb warmth from the ground.


Is that really true? I do not know the answer but what I do know
causes me to question your theory.

The reason I question it is that water has the very unusual
characteristic of being most dense at 39 degrees F. At temperaturs
above and below that it is less dense. Therefore, if there were no
flow induced by pumps, streams, etc. the water at the bottom of the
pond would be 39 degees F as long as the ground temperature was not
higher than that. If the ground temperature is higher then it does
not matter what you do.

If the ground temperature would get lower than 39 F, as it would in my
section of New Hampshire, then it seems to me that settling of the
dense 39 degree water into the deepest part actually keeps the ground
from freezing.

If that is so, then eventually the water will lose it's heat and
everything freezes. But, there are many days in which the air
temperature is above freezing. That warms the water to it's densest
point (39 F) and actually results in a warm flow from top to bottom.

I guess that now that I have written this and thought it through, you
are correct, the best policy is to leave the deep water alone. A
happy circumstance, being right even if for the wrong reason.

Does anyone see any flaws in the above. I would like to understand
the physics so I can operate my pond properly.

John





The small pump is only drawing water from top 6inchs of the pond, just
enough to splash a little bit of water on the surface, its not alot of
water.

The liner has been proped up in the middle to allow water and snow to
melt off and not to settle, because its black the sun should warm it up
to prevent snow from settling, but I can remove snow if it builds up.

I just wanted to know if it was alright if covering the pond is alright,
to help prevent the water from freezing up.
I have allowed air to get in, but in a way that its now blown in to
freezing the water and I will add an air stone when I buy one.

Joel.

Superkitt,

I'm a little concerned about your fish and plants being in the dark all
winter. I know submerged grasses, anacharis especially, don't respond well
to heavy shade, like my shade cloth, all winter.

Tom La Bron wrote:
In any event, the whole idea is to leave the water in the deepest part of
the pond where the fish will stay undisturbed by water movement, so it will
absorb warmth from the ground.

John replied (after heavy snipping)
I guess that now that I have written this and thought it through, you
are correct, the best policy is to leave the deep water alone. A
happy circumstance, being right even if for the wrong reason.

Does anyone see any flaws in the above. I would like to understand
the physics so I can operate my pond properly.

Here's something to discuss. I've always run my ponds so the bottom isn't
disturbed, but I did hear thru the koimag grapevine something about shallow
ponds, less than 3+ feet, it 1) doesn't matter and 2) it isn't a good idea
to let fish sit in stagnant water all winter. Supposedly, (keep in mind I'm
parroting for discussion) it is better to continue gentle flow off the
bottom.

In my case, that would mean when switching to my 300 gph pump in winter,
continuing to pull from both bottom drain and skimmer (making the skimmer
almost useless at that flow). I'm really thinking to stay with skimmer
only, especially with a spic & span bottom for the koi to sit on, but
another alternative would be an airstone on the bottom, something we're
always telling others not to do.
Some days this hobby is SO confusing. ~ jan
See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Superkitt,

I'm a little concerned about your fish and plants being in the dark all
winter. I know submerged grasses, anacharis especially, don't respond well
to heavy shade, like my shade cloth, all winter.

Tom La Bron wrote:
In any event, the whole idea is to leave the water in the deepest part of
the pond where the fish will stay undisturbed by water movement, so it will
absorb warmth from the ground.

John replied (after heavy snipping)
I guess that now that I have written this and thought it through, you
are correct, the best policy is to leave the deep water alone. A
happy circumstance, being right even if for the wrong reason.

Does anyone see any flaws in the above. I would like to understand
the physics so I can operate my pond properly.

Here's something to discuss. I've always run my ponds so the bottom isn't
disturbed, but I did hear thru the koimag grapevine something about shallow
ponds, less than 3+ feet, it 1) doesn't matter and 2) it isn't a good idea
to let fish sit in stagnant water all winter. Supposedly, (keep in mind I'm
parroting for discussion) it is better to continue gentle flow off the
bottom.

In my case, that would mean when switching to my 300 gph pump in winter,
continuing to pull from both bottom drain and skimmer (making the skimmer
almost useless at that flow). I'm really thinking to stay with skimmer
only, especially with a spic & span bottom for the koi to sit on, but
another alternative would be an airstone on the bottom, something we're
always telling others not to do.
Some days this hobby is SO confusing. ~ jan
See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

If the water becomes warmer than 39 degrees, it will rise, and once the pond
is above 39, any cooling of the surface causes the water to sink until the
whole pond is 39 degrees and then there is no flow. If the winters are
extremely cold, and long, then the soil under the liner could be cooled to
below 39, but it will be getting heat from further down in the ground.
During this time, the bottom water will be below 39, but it will still be
the densest water in the pond and the circulation will cease. The shallower
the pond, the quicker the soil under the pond will cool, due to its closer
proximity to the cold source. For shallow ponds it could be possible that
the circulation is so little for so long that toxic gasses could become
saturated and oxygen not diffuse due to lack of currents and harm the fish,
I guess. The use of the air stone will cause a very slight turnover, with
almost no current and should be beneficial.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Superkitt,

I'm a little concerned about your fish and plants being in the dark all
winter. I know submerged grasses, anacharis especially, don't respond well
to heavy shade, like my shade cloth, all winter.

Tom La Bron wrote:
In any event, the whole idea is to leave the water in the deepest part
of
the pond where the fish will stay undisturbed by water movement, so it
will
absorb warmth from the ground.

John replied (after heavy snipping)
I guess that now that I have written this and thought it through, you
are correct, the best policy is to leave the deep water alone. A
happy circumstance, being right even if for the wrong reason.

Does anyone see any flaws in the above. I would like to understand
the physics so I can operate my pond properly.

Here's something to discuss. I've always run my ponds so the bottom isn't
disturbed, but I did hear thru the koimag grapevine something about
shallow
ponds, less than 3+ feet, it 1) doesn't matter and 2) it isn't a good idea
to let fish sit in stagnant water all winter. Supposedly, (keep in mind
I'm
parroting for discussion) it is better to continue gentle flow off the
bottom.

In my case, that would mean when switching to my 300 gph pump in winter,
continuing to pull from both bottom drain and skimmer (making the skimmer
almost useless at that flow). I'm really thinking to stay with skimmer
only, especially with a spic & span bottom for the koi to sit on, but
another alternative would be an airstone on the bottom, something we're
always telling others not to do.
Some days this hobby is SO confusing. ~ jan
See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

If the water becomes warmer than 39 degrees, it will rise, and once the pond
is above 39, any cooling of the surface causes the water to sink until the
whole pond is 39 degrees and then there is no flow. If the winters are
extremely cold, and long, then the soil under the liner could be cooled to
below 39, but it will be getting heat from further down in the ground.
During this time, the bottom water will be below 39, but it will still be
the densest water in the pond and the circulation will cease. The shallower
the pond, the quicker the soil under the pond will cool, due to its closer
proximity to the cold source. For shallow ponds it could be possible that
the circulation is so little for so long that toxic gasses could become
saturated and oxygen not diffuse due to lack of currents and harm the fish,
I guess. The use of the air stone will cause a very slight turnover, with
almost no current and should be beneficial.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Superkitt,

I'm a little concerned about your fish and plants being in the dark all
winter. I know submerged grasses, anacharis especially, don't respond well
to heavy shade, like my shade cloth, all winter.

Tom La Bron wrote:
In any event, the whole idea is to leave the water in the deepest part
of
the pond where the fish will stay undisturbed by water movement, so it
will
absorb warmth from the ground.

John replied (after heavy snipping)
I guess that now that I have written this and thought it through, you
are correct, the best policy is to leave the deep water alone. A
happy circumstance, being right even if for the wrong reason.

Does anyone see any flaws in the above. I would like to understand
the physics so I can operate my pond properly.

Here's something to discuss. I've always run my ponds so the bottom isn't
disturbed, but I did hear thru the koimag grapevine something about
shallow
ponds, less than 3+ feet, it 1) doesn't matter and 2) it isn't a good idea
to let fish sit in stagnant water all winter. Supposedly, (keep in mind
I'm
parroting for discussion) it is better to continue gentle flow off the
bottom.

In my case, that would mean when switching to my 300 gph pump in winter,
continuing to pull from both bottom drain and skimmer (making the skimmer
almost useless at that flow). I'm really thinking to stay with skimmer
only, especially with a spic & span bottom for the koi to sit on, but
another alternative would be an airstone on the bottom, something we're
always telling others not to do.
Some days this hobby is SO confusing. ~ jan
See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Interesting thread and eagerly waiting for more input. So far, I'm
gathering the consensus is you want a bit of circulation at the bottom?
Until last year I've used the method of a couple of airstones slightly
below the surface, which has worked with no loss of fish. Last year, due
to laziness on my part, I left an Oase Pond30 Aerator at the bottom,
which in my mind gave some (minimal) water movement and another opening
in the ice, as well as the usual two airstones (3 or 4" from the
surface), again with no fish loss. I'd really like to see more
discussion on this.

deanna (zone4, SE Idaho)

RichToyBox wrote:

If the water becomes warmer than 39 degrees, it will rise, and once the pond
is above 39, any cooling of the surface causes the water to sink until the
whole pond is 39 degrees and then there is no flow. If the winters are
extremely cold, and long, then the soil under the liner could be cooled to
below 39, but it will be getting heat from further down in the ground.
During this time, the bottom water will be below 39, but it will still be
the densest water in the pond and the circulation will cease. The shallower
the pond, the quicker the soil under the pond will cool, due to its closer
proximity to the cold source. For shallow ponds it could be possible that
the circulation is so little for so long that toxic gasses could become
saturated and oxygen not diffuse due to lack of currents and harm the fish,
I guess. The use of the air stone will cause a very slight turnover, with
almost no current and should be beneficial.


jan wrote:
In my case, that would mean when switching to my 300 gph pump in winter,
continuing to pull from both bottom drain and skimmer (making the skimmer
almost useless at that flow). I'm really thinking to stay with skimmer
only, especially with a spic & span bottom for the koi to sit on, but
another alternative would be an airstone on the bottom, something we're
always telling others not to do.
Some days this hobby is SO confusing. ~ jan
See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 23:12:16 GMT, dhponder
wrote:

Interesting thread and eagerly waiting for more input. So far, I'm
gathering the consensus is you want a bit of circulation at the bottom?
Until last year I've used the method of a couple of airstones slightly
below the surface, which has worked with no loss of fish. Last year, due
to laziness on my part, I left an Oase Pond30 Aerator at the bottom,
which in my mind gave some (minimal) water movement and another opening
in the ice, as well as the usual two airstones (3 or 4" from the
surface), again with no fish loss. I'd really like to see more
discussion on this.

deanna (zone4, SE Idaho)


I too am interested in the airstone issue. I see no logical reason
for keeping the airstone off the bottom of my 40" deep pond. If it is
down there then it will aerate all of the water as it bubbles to the
surface. That is good, right?

It seems to me that circulating the water does a lot of good and
little bad. Or am I wrong on that?

John