Hi all..

Newbie posting here for first time (please be gentle)

First off, I've just built a 1000 Gallon pond (not bad considering my garden
is so small) but I want to have a water feature flowing into it. However
all the ready made Water courses are wrong shape/too big/small, so I got to
thinking about expanding foam and liner, making my own... Has anyone done
this before?? Will it be better to paint the expanding foam with a rubber
compound pond sealant paint? Or cover with a liner? Its not gonna be too
huge and will be well supported.. But the fence behind the pond is VERY
boring to look at.

This pond WILL be populated with fish (koi, Shibunkins (sp) and Sturgeon
amongst possible other additions.. (blue orfe seem to be a very likely
addition).

Now to another Question.. I have some sturgeon (3 off) and the other
evening I went out to the garden about 11 pm (pitch dark) and the sturgeon
were sticking there whole heads out of the water and making a grunting
sound?? This has me worried (they are 2' long each) and are at present in
an holding tank (old bath tub) while the pond is sorted. (bath tub having a
3000 gallon filtration system running in it to make sure water stays clean
and clear.(including a 15 watt UV clarifier))

pond will be ready for population (excluding the "feature") in a week but
the feature will be a removable item so can be made separately from the
pond!

sorry for the long post, but thought the details MAY be relevant

Any help and advice offered will be most helpful..

Lost

All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
Kirsten
"Lostin1999" wrote in message
...
Hi all..

Newbie posting here for first time (please be gentle)

First off, I've just built a 1000 Gallon pond (not bad considering my
garden
is so small) but I want to have a water feature flowing into it. However
all the ready made Water courses are wrong shape/too big/small, so I got
to
thinking about expanding foam and liner, making my own... Has anyone done
this before?? Will it be better to paint the expanding foam with a rubber
compound pond sealant paint? Or cover with a liner? Its not gonna be too
huge and will be well supported.. But the fence behind the pond is VERY
boring to look at.

This pond WILL be populated with fish (koi, Shibunkins (sp) and Sturgeon
amongst possible other additions.. (blue orfe seem to be a very likely
addition).

Now to another Question.. I have some sturgeon (3 off) and the other
evening I went out to the garden about 11 pm (pitch dark) and the sturgeon
were sticking there whole heads out of the water and making a grunting
sound?? This has me worried (they are 2' long each) and are at present
in
an holding tank (old bath tub) while the pond is sorted. (bath tub having
a
3000 gallon filtration system running in it to make sure water stays clean
and clear.(including a 15 watt UV clarifier))

pond will be ready for population (excluding the "feature") in a week but
the feature will be a removable item so can be made separately from the
pond!

sorry for the long post, but thought the details MAY be relevant

Any help and advice offered will be most helpful..

Lost

"k conover" wrote in message
...
All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
Kirsten
snip

A generally excepted ratio of Koi to Water is 1,000 gallons for the first
Koi and 100 gallons for each additional Koi. So 4 Koi, for example, should
be in 1300 gallons of water. The key thing to remember here, is that this is
a rule thumb, and nothing more.

BV.

I know not everyone follows this rule; I've just been told by the owner of a
major water garden designer store/installer that in order for them to thrive
(live their full life span, have less disease problems, etc) koi should be
in a larger pond.
Kirsten
"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"k conover" wrote in message
...
All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
Kirsten
snip

A generally excepted ratio of Koi to Water is 1,000 gallons for the first
Koi and 100 gallons for each additional Koi. So 4 Koi, for example, should
be in 1300 gallons of water. The key thing to remember here, is that this
is
a rule thumb, and nothing more.

BV.

"k conover" wrote in message
...
I know not everyone follows this rule; I've just been told by the owner of
a
major water garden designer store/installer that in order for them to
thrive
(live their full life span, have less disease problems, etc) koi should be
in a larger pond.

snip

Realistically, you could raise Koi in your kitchen sink, if you kept the
water clean and free of toxins. The larger bodies of water that we discuss
for Koi, a la the 1000+100 gallon rule, is to allow for buffering and
chemistry swings. A spawning's worth of Ammonia is much more toxic to a fish
500 gallons then to a fish in 1000 gallons.

The 1000+100 gallon rule provides a rule of thumb that assumes you do not
have perfect conditions, perfect filtration, etc.

BV.

Having read many of your posts, I know that you're a pond expert, and I
don't want to start a flame war, but you could raise a child in a closet if
you wanted as well, but if you care about the Koi as a living being and not
just a water ornament, you would want it to be happy and give it plenty of
space in which to swim.
Kirsten
"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"k conover" wrote in message
...
I know not everyone follows this rule; I've just been told by the owner
of
a
major water garden designer store/installer that in order for them to
thrive
(live their full life span, have less disease problems, etc) koi should
be
in a larger pond.

snip

Realistically, you could raise Koi in your kitchen sink, if you kept the
water clean and free of toxins. The larger bodies of water that we discuss
for Koi, a la the 1000+100 gallon rule, is to allow for buffering and
chemistry swings. A spawning's worth of Ammonia is much more toxic to a
fish
500 gallons then to a fish in 1000 gallons.

The 1000+100 gallon rule provides a rule of thumb that assumes you do not
have perfect conditions, perfect filtration, etc.

BV.

"k conover" wrote in message
...
Having read many of your posts, I know that you're a pond expert, and I
don't want to start a flame war, but you could raise a child in a closet
if
you wanted as well, but if you care about the Koi as a living being and
not
just a water ornament, you would want it to be happy and give it plenty of
space in which to swim.
snip

I am by no means a pond expert, but thanks for the compliment.

As for the topic, I think you are misunderstanding me. I agree with
everything you said which is why I used the 1000+100 rule when I implemented
my pond. I wanted the pigs to have plenty of room to swim and enjoy life.

BV.

I have Koi..never have followed that rule... BUT Useing the rule
described below you are saying that you need 1000 gallons of water to
succesfully keep one KOI Healthy??? I disagree.... MIKE
"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"k conover" wrote in message
...
All I know is, 1,000 gallons is too small for Koi...
Kirsten
snip

A generally excepted ratio of Koi to Water is 1,000 gallons for the first
Koi and 100 gallons for each additional Koi. So 4 Koi, for example, should
be in 1300 gallons of water. The key thing to remember here, is that this
is
a rule thumb, and nothing more.

BV.

I too am very new to all of this. I read a very interesting newbie article
once which said "Figure out how many fish your pond can support - then start
with 1/10th that." Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience. You
will make mistakes - that's a given. Start slowly and your mistakes wont
cost you nearly as much in time, money and satisfaction. The bigger the
cushion to start the less the bruise in learning. Get to know your pond,
your filter, your fish, your unthought of problems. Quarantine all new fish
and plants before adding new problems to your pond. Don't start with
feeders. These things and more will help to keep new problems from becoming
a string of disasters. I say this having not done most of these things, but
I sure would do it differently if I had a second chance. Things will be
just so much more controlled and happy for everybody and everything. I
suspect there are some 'fast track' people who could also add their
disasters - but they're no longer ponders. Yes I think the 1000+ rule is
probably overstated.
I have already seen several EXPERIENCED ponders who have broken it. But if
you are soliciting advice and INEXPERIENCED this is probably a very good
rule. Start slowly and someday you will probably figure out how to 'break
the rules' safely in your own pond with your specific variables, or figured
out why you shouldnt. Or if you're like many in this group you'll have a
bigger pond and altogether different issues.

BTW - I dont know a thing about sturgeon. But my guess is, if they are
anything like comets you are on the way to your first three mistakes.
Filter not cylced, they got bugs, etc.

Bill Brister
Austin, Texas

wrote in message ...
I have Koi..never have followed that rule... BUT Useing the rule
described below you are saying that you need 1000 gallons of water to
succesfully keep one KOI Healthy??? I disagree.... MIKE
snip

What I am saying is that you can keep a Koi alive in your kitchen sink with
the proper filtration. BUT, since none of have our ponds in a labratory with
carefuly monitoring filtering, it is good to give some buffer space to
prevent large swings in the water parameters. The 1000+100 rule is a good
rule of thumb for hosting a pond full of Koi, simply because it provides an
easy to remember number, and enough water to properly buffer spikes in water
chemistry. In addition, as Sam pointed out, 1000 gallons will often result
in a size and shape pond that gives the Koi room to move.

BV.

I would say that ponding is mostly science. as in we know what will kill koi and try
to avoid that. science tells us how to be very conservative when starting out.
what water parameters are needed for healthy fish.
how much water, depth etc. is needed for stable pond temperature and "buffer" for
when/if things go wrong. in the south the problem is heat, in the north it is ice.
aeration, filtration.. why it is needed, what it does.
quarantine and why that is important.
water and lots of it is the very most important component of keeping fish. if the
water can be kept pristine keeping fish is a snap (well unless there is a predator or
somebody dumps poison in or around the pond).
art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with it.
Ingrid


"Newbie Bill" wrote:
Also read "Pond keeping is not a science it is an art".
Ponding is not a formula. There are just too many variables which can
frequently change making each pond it's own little learning experience. You
will make mistakes - that's a given. Start slowly and your mistakes wont
cost you nearly as much in time, money and satisfaction. The bigger the
cushion to start the less the bruise in learning. Get to know your pond,
your filter, your fish, your unthought of problems. Quarantine all new fish
and plants before adding new problems to your pond. Don't start with
feeders. These things and more will help to keep new problems from becoming
a string of disasters. I say this having not done most of these things, but
I sure would do it differently if I had a second chance. Things will be
just so much more controlled and happy for everybody and everything. I
suspect there are some 'fast track' people who could also add their
disasters - but they're no longer ponders. Yes I think the 1000+ rule is
probably overstated.
I have already seen several EXPERIENCED ponders who have broken it. But if
you are soliciting advice and INEXPERIENCED this is probably a very good
rule. Start slowly and someday you will probably figure out how to 'break
the rules' safely in your own pond with your specific variables, or figured
out why you shouldnt. Or if you're like many in this group you'll have a
bigger pond and altogether different issues.

BTW - I dont know a thing about sturgeon. But my guess is, if they are
anything like comets you are on the way to your first three mistakes.
Filter not cylced, they got bugs, etc.

Bill Brister
Austin, Texas




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Even though there isn't much natural about
our ponds - they are made with liner and filled with city water for the most
part - it is still a good idea to look to Mother Nature sometimes.

Mother Nature provides lots of water for relatively few fish, she lets the fish
find food on their own (no tasty koi kibble dropped from the sky), she does
water changes, she filters with plants, she doesn't freak out over algae,
she encourages predators and ignores the pond for the most part.
Every once in a while she kills off too many fish with a hard winter, sends a
flood to clean things out or fills in the pond with cattails and willows and
starts over someplace else (you can do that with a whole planet to play with).

Mother Nature doesn't run her water through UV (she has the sun at her beck and
call), she hates chemical treatments, she doesn't want to zap her creatures
with shock fences, thinks fish chow tastes nasty and would never think of dying
her ponds...

So Mother Nature has a few hints for us. Not that we'll pay that much
attention. It is too much fun to feed the fish and we love to fuss over our
pets but do keep her in mind everytime you get the urge to get too retentive
about the pond and open a beer, zip some wine or have your morning coffee by
the pond instead.


kathy :-)
A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A

wrote in message
...
I would say that ponding is mostly science.
snip
I tend to agree. 1+1 often = 2 when it comes to ponding.

art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with it.
snip

Unfortunately this is as true as 1+1=2, especially for the porgs that I have
read here on rec.ponds. I think we ALL break the rules at some point, and
for the most part, many of us have gotten away with it.

BV.

Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
totally unaware of. If someone would care to email me privately I would
appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise) 'observation'
and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to offend
anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong. So I will just make 2 quick
comments about this thread. 1) I do believe there is quite an art to
balancing the scientific generalities and facts into your specific pond
parameters. 2) I have rarely seen an instance where a desired result is as
simple as 1+1=2. It is most usually 4 or 5 variables, hoping you weighted
them correctly, hoping you included the correct variables and the closer to
2 the better, but they rarely add up to exactly 2.
Perhaps I should not be commenting at all but I just saw something in
this thread that I dont get. Maybe its something as simple as you vets not
being allowed to say "You pond newbies are just too stupid at first so we
are going to start you off really slowly". I resemble that remark.
Have Fun!
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas
"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
I would say that ponding is mostly science.
snip
I tend to agree. 1+1 often = 2 when it comes to ponding.

art is when people knowingly bend or break the rules and get away with
it.
snip

Unfortunately this is as true as 1+1=2, especially for the porgs that I
have
read here on rec.ponds. I think we ALL break the rules at some point, and
for the most part, many of us have gotten away with it.

BV.

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
...
Hi All - There is apparently some sub dynamic of this group that I am
totally unaware of.

Yeah, we're pretty close knit. rec.ponds is one of the few usenet groups
that is not plaqued with BS. Although, we have our moments.

If someone would care to email me privately I would
appreciate it. I wrote a fairly lengthy (surprise, surprise)
'observation'
and have decided to delete it, because I really, really dont want to
offend
anyone or act like I'm right you're wrong.

Where's the fun in that.

So I will just make 2 quick
comments about this thread. 1) I do believe there is quite an art to
balancing the scientific generalities and facts into your specific pond
parameters. 2) I have rarely seen an instance where a desired result is
as
simple as 1+1=2. It is most usually 4 or 5 variables, hoping you weighted
them correctly, hoping you included the correct variables and the closer
to
2 the better, but they rarely add up to exactly 2.

Which was my point. Sometimes 1+1=2 when you follow the rules. But we all
break them and usually end up getting 2, but not necissarily by adding 1 and
1.

Perhaps I should not be commenting at all but I just saw something in
this thread that I dont get. Maybe its something as simple as you vets
not
being allowed to say "You pond newbies are just too stupid at first so we
are going to start you off really slowly". I resemble that remark.
snip

Ponding is not an exact science, as evidenced by the fact that there are no
two ponds alike. No two sets of conditions. On rec.ponds, for the most part,
we offer anecdotal solutions to ponders problems. We are typically careful
not hand down knowledge as gospel, as we know that what works for 1 may not
work for another.

BV.