Here I go again:

I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how
MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6
fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read
280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0,
and I added 2 more cups this evening.

At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as
there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the
pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale?

This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I
haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few
treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a
whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so.

The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your
water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green,
not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find
unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is
growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So
what do you think? ~ jan



(Do you know where your water quality is?)

OK, first of all BS will make PH go up, think about it, high PH is alkaline
water not acidic.
I have no idea what you have done to your pond.
time to start over I would think
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
s.com...
Here I go again:

I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how
MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6
fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read
280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0,
and I added 2 more cups this evening.

At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as
there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the
pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale?

This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I
haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few
treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a
whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so.

The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your
water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are
green,
not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find
unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is
growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them.
So
what do you think? ~ jan



(Do you know where your water quality is?)

"Steve (Dart)" wrote in message
...
OK, first of all BS will make PH go up, think about it, high PH is
alkaline
water not acidic.
I have no idea what you have done to your pond.
time to start over I would think

Not exactly. Baking soda is (IIRC) 8.2 ph, so it WILL drop the a ph from
9.0. It is a buffer, bringing the pond ph back towards 8.2, whether the ph
is 9.0 or 6.0. If you are further out - say below 6 or over 10, it will
have a significant effect, but closer to 8.2 it takes a lot to move the ph.

I've read varying amounts - a pound per 700 gallons, a pound a week, etc, so
I can't say what is correct. Your plants are happy, do your fish seem happy
too?

Jan,

Where have you heard this horse crap. Baking Soda when
added to acidic water will raise the pH to a stabilized
position and hold it there, but it certainly will not
lower pH especially if you pH is already at the 8 level.

For Heaven's sake stop adding baking soda. You only
need a KH of between 80-120ppm to keep from pH shifts.
If you pond is in the 8 pH region you can add
Baking Soda to increase your KH to the desired level of
80-120ppm as previous stated, but this can be done with
out making the pH rise, but if you keep increasing the
Baking Soda it will eventually start raising the pH
because you are adding a bunch of -OH ions to the
increasing the basic side of the pH scale.

In any event, stop the addition of BS and check the pH
frequently to see what happens. Not knowing your water
chemistry I would venture to guess that it should start
dropping. The carbonate ions that your are adding are
used by the biobugs in the chemical reactions that
change ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates,
which is why it is important to keep KH in the range
previously mentioned.

HTH

Tom L.L.
===================================



~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Here I go again:

I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how
MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6
fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read
280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0,
and I added 2 more cups this evening.

At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as
there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the
pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale?

This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I
haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few
treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a
whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so.

The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your
water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green,
not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find
unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is
growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So
what do you think? ~ jan



(Do you know where your water quality is?)

In article m, ~ jan
JJsPond.us wrote:

Here I go again:

I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how
MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6
fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read
280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0,
and I added 2 more cups this evening.

Are your plants on cinder/concrete-blocks ? Whats the water coming in
at ?

What was the general pH last year ?

Given your liner, its gotta be the water coming in, or an object in the
pond. I would back off on the BS, I think Rod (If I may be so
presumptuous) might suggest a milk-crate of oyster shells... but with a
KH of 280 currently that 9 is gonna be hard to move.


At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish,

This is well out of the "ideal" range in my test kits, but I just never
have this problem, so no practical experience.

jay
Fri Jul 02, 2004





or is safe as long as
there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the
pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale?

This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I
haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few
treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a
whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so.

The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your
water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green,
not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find
unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is
growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So
what do you think? ~ jan



(Do you know where your water quality is?)

I cant imagine how baking soda would lower pH. Acid is used to lower pH.
baking soda breaks down to CO2 and H2O, so you are putting CO2 into the water. I
should add that bs only adds CO2 as it breaks down in response to acid.
how old is you pH kit? did the sticks get wet?
Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH.

The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your
water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are green,
not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find
unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is
growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them. So
what do you think? ~ jan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

if her calcium level is already up, there is no reason for shells. certainly her pH
is high and it wouldnt dissolve anyway. Ingrid

Go Fig wrote:
might suggest a milk-crate of oyster shells..


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"Tom L. La Bron" wrote in message
...
Jan,

Where have you heard this horse crap. Baking Soda when
added to acidic water will raise the pH to a stabilized
position and hold it there, but it certainly will not
lower pH especially if you pH is already at the 8 level.


Here's a good article on the chemistry of baking soda as a buffer, either
raising or lowering ph

http://www.mnwgs.org/articles/EmptykH.htm

"But how can the bicarbonate act as a buffer to go the other way, lowering
the pH if it is too high? In that case the bicarbonate ion would give up its
hydrogen as an ion, thus adding acid, lowering pH, and becoming a carbonate
ion (C03). HCO3 = C03 + H bicarbonate carbonate + H acid."

Might be cheaper to use Soda Ash instead of baking soda, thats whats
used in swimming pools. Grandpa

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

Here I go again:

I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how
MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6
fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read
280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0,
and I added 2 more cups this evening.

this is not a "good article", this person admits to not understanding what is
actually going on, so she is just repeating what "others" say (which is incorrect).
you always need to do an advanced google search designating .edu sites only, that
explains how things work.

http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edud...er/Buffer.html
"The lungs remove excess CO2 from the blood (helping to raise the pH via shifts in
the equilibria in Equation 10), and the kidneys remove excess HCO3- from the body
(helping to lower the pH). "

So the bicarbonate system works to INCREASE the pH by releasing CO2 (and the lungs
blow it off) but to decreases the pH the kidneys are needed to remove HCO3- from the
body. Ingrid


"Grubber" wrote:

Here's a good article on the chemistry of baking soda as a buffer, either
raising or lowering ph

http://www.mnwgs.org/articles/EmptykH.htm

"But how can the bicarbonate act as a buffer to go the other way, lowering
the pH if it is too high? In that case the bicarbonate ion would give up its
hydrogen as an ion, thus adding acid, lowering pH, and becoming a carbonate
ion (C03). HCO3 = C03 + H bicarbonate carbonate + H acid."




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
this is not a "good article", this person admits to not understanding what
is
actually going on, so she is just repeating what "others" say (which is
incorrect).
you always need to do an advanced google search designating .edu sites
only, that
explains how things work.

http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edud...er/Buffer.html
"The lungs remove excess CO2 from the blood (helping to raise the pH via
shifts in
the equilibria in Equation 10), and the kidneys remove excess HCO3- from
the body
(helping to lower the pH). "

So the bicarbonate system works to INCREASE the pH by releasing CO2 (and
the lungs
blow it off) but to decreases the pH the kidneys are needed to remove
HCO3- from the
body. Ingrid



OK Here's a .edu site

"Because of its chemical makeup, Baking Soda has unique capabilities as a Ph
balancer or buffer. Buffering is the maintenance of a stable pH balance, or
acid-alkali balance. As a buffer, Baking Soda tends to cause acid solutions
to become more alkali and to cause alkali solutions to become more acid,
bringing both solutions to a stable pH around 8.1 (slightly basic) on the pH
scale. A buffer also resists pH change in a solution, in this case
maintaining a pH of 8.1."

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/mecklenburg/depts/fce/soda.htm

The other site was better because it actually explained the chemical
process. A .edu site doesn't mean the reader understands what is being
read.

The nature of baking soda is that it will give up H+ ions making more acids,
but only if the pH is above the buffer point. When it does this, it leaves
behind carbonate ions, which could precipitate as calcium carbonate,
(limestone), of calcium magnesium carbonate, (dolomite), if there is enough
carbonate and it is not being pushed back to bicarbonate.
You didn't say it, but I assume you are checking fish ponds with the same
test kit and not getting the same high readings, and that the pH test kit is
good.
You may be at some saturation point and major water changes could help bring
the pH down, though with your additions of acid and the temporary decrease,
I doubt it.
As for the maximum level, I saw somewhere, I think, a value of 300ppm.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
s.com...
Here I go again:

I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how
MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6
fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read
280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0,
and I added 2 more cups this evening.

At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as
there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the
pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale?

This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I
haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few
treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a
whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so.

The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your
water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are
green,
not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find
unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is
growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them.
So
what do you think? ~ jan



(Do you know where your water quality is?)

The nature of baking soda is that it will give up H+ ions making more acids,
but only if the pH is above the buffer point. When it does this, it leaves
behind carbonate ions, which could precipitate as calcium carbonate,
(limestone), of calcium magnesium carbonate, (dolomite), if there is enough
carbonate and it is not being pushed back to bicarbonate.
You didn't say it, but I assume you are checking fish ponds with the same
test kit and not getting the same high readings, and that the pH test kit is
good.
You may be at some saturation point and major water changes could help bring
the pH down, though with your additions of acid and the temporary decrease,
I doubt it.
As for the maximum level, I saw somewhere, I think, a value of 300ppm.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
s.com...
Here I go again:

I've often heard Baking Soda will lower a high pH. I'm wondering just how
MUCH BS a pun? is needed? My lily pond is 3 yo 1,000 gallon EPDM with 6
fantail goldfish. I've added enough baking soda recently that the KH read
280/ppm today after adding 4 cups of BS. The pH is still reading over 9.0,
and I added 2 more cups this evening.

At what ppm is the KH detrimental to the goldfish, or is safe as long as
there is more liquid water than solid BS in the pond? At what ppm will the
pH dropped, or is this really an old fisherman's tale?

This pond has concrete block surrounding the top, but it is 3 yo, and I
haven't had this bad a time with pH the previous years, usually a few
treatment with M.acid has gotten it under control. This year I've used a
whole gallon on it (~2 cups/time). Only brings it down for a week or so.

The other odd thing, at least I find odd as I'm always preaching if your
water hyacinths are dying check the pH. Well the water hyacinths are
green,
not growing much, but green.... and so is the water, but that I don't find
unusual considering the pH. I'd also like to mention the duckweed is
growing great in the block holes, I guess a high pH doesn't bother them.
So
what do you think? ~ jan



(Do you know where your water quality is?)

you are absolutely correct. the site is put up by Mecklenburg County Family and
Consumer Education Page

http://turfgrass.cas.psu.edu/educati...rrWatQual.html
they dont talk about high pH, but they do say "High cencentrations of bicarbonate and
carbonate ions in irrigation water can induce precipitation of calcium and magnesium
ions to form calcium and magnesium carbonates, which have low solubility. The
precipitation of calcium and magnesium allows sodium ions to dominate and, thus,
increases the sodium hazard associated with the irrigation water."
OTOH, "pH - Where the pH of the irrigation water is greater that 8.4, bicarbonate and
sodium ion concentrations are often high. Where the pH of the irrigation water is
less than 6.5, iron and sulfate ion cencentrations are typically high. Attempts to
adjust the pH of irrigation water should be based on RSC values, not pH alone."
which means at high pH bicarb ions are high but not being "removed" somehow, unless
there is calcium or magnesium ions.

it is important to point out that those who have tried it have not been able to drop
their high pH. experiments. Ingrid


"Grubber" wrote:
OK Here's a .edu site

"Because of its chemical makeup, Baking Soda has unique capabilities as a Ph
balancer or buffer. Buffering is the maintenance of a stable pH balance, or
acid-alkali balance. As a buffer, Baking Soda tends to cause acid solutions
to become more alkali and to cause alkali solutions to become more acid,
bringing both solutions to a stable pH around 8.1 (slightly basic) on the pH
scale. A buffer also resists pH change in a solution, in this case
maintaining a pH of 8.1."

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/mecklenburg/depts/fce/soda.htm

The other site was better because it actually explained the chemical
process. A .edu site doesn't mean the reader understands what is being
read.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

bicarbonate HCO3- is unlikely to give up H+ ions... it is already in an ionized
state. yes, it can combine with calcium or magnesium, but does that lower the pH?

WE NEED (Rod Farlee)!!!!!!!
Ingrid

"RichToyBox" wrote:

The nature of baking soda is that it will give up H+ ions making more acids,
but only if the pH is above the buffer point. When it does this, it leaves
behind carbonate ions, which could precipitate as calcium carbonate,
(limestone), of calcium magnesium carbonate, (dolomite), if there is enough
carbonate and it is not being pushed back to bicarbonate.
You didn't say it, but I assume you are checking fish ponds with the same
test kit and not getting the same high readings, and that the pH test kit is
good.
You may be at some saturation point and major water changes could help bring
the pH down, though with your additions of acid and the temporary decrease,
I doubt it.
As for the maximum level, I saw somewhere, I think, a value of 300ppm.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.