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Old 31-01-2003, 05:38 PM
BenignVanilla
 
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Default Settlement Tanks

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

I am planning on a 2000 gallon pond with two bottom drains that will be
piped to a settlement tank. Another pipe will connect from the settlement
pipe to a pump that will be submerged in my veggie filter. The output of the
pump will be in the veggie filter which will flow down to the pain pond.

I was thinking of burying one or two 5 gallon buckets for the settlement
tanks. Would be cheap and easy. Would this be big enough to allow for some
SOME settling before the pipes dump into the filter? My intent is to have
the sediment dropped into/used by the veggie filter, but I don't want to
connect the drains directly to my pump for fear of clogging.

--
BenignVanilla
tibetanbeefgarden.com
x-no-archive: yes

Remove MY SPLEEN to email me.






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Old 31-01-2003, 11:21 PM
John Hines
 
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Default Settlement Tanks

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?


Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!

To not be smart, it depends on the water flow.

I was thinking of burying one or two 5 gallon buckets for the settlement
tanks. Would be cheap and easy.


If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

Would this be big enough to allow for some
SOME settling before the pipes dump into the filter? My intent is to have
the sediment dropped into/used by the veggie filter, but I don't want to
connect the drains directly to my pump for fear of clogging.


Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web.
  #3   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2003, 02:08 PM
BenignVanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

snip
If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

snip

Thanks for the follow up. Makes sense. I'll go back to the drawing board.

BV.


  #4   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2003, 04:13 PM
BenignVanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?


Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!


*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

BV.



Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web.



  #5   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2003, 06:25 PM
Bonnie Espenshade
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

BenignVanilla wrote:
"John Hines" wrote in message
...

"BenignVanilla" wrote:


Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?


Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!



*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.


snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

BV.



When I built my first veggie filter it was suggested that
the turnover rate be once every four hours, so that it
would have enough time for the plants to absorb the nutrients.
The argument ensued here on rec.ponds - whether time in the
filter or amount of water passing through the filter where
more important. It was never really settled - as usual we
each came to our own conclusion because our ponds are all
different.
To slow down the waters passage through the settling tank
several of us have added window screening. This works great
in allowing the muck to settle and the window screening is
very easily cleaned with a hose.

--
Bonnie
NJ





  #6   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2003, 07:39 PM
BenignVanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
...
BenignVanilla wrote:

snip
I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump.

It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With

a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to

settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume

in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I

am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17

minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

snip
When I built my first veggie filter it was suggested that
the turnover rate be once every four hours, so that it
would have enough time for the plants to absorb the nutrients.
The argument ensued here on rec.ponds - whether time in the
filter or amount of water passing through the filter where
more important. It was never really settled - as usual we
each came to our own conclusion because our ponds are all
different.


I can see both sides of each argument. And I could probably find myself
agreeing with both, so I will do my best to not bring it back to life.
*laugh* BUT...BUT...How can I translate this to a settlement tank? Surely,
the flow of the water will be a factor. If I have a 3000 gallon pond, I am
going to have a 300 gallon veggie filter...do I also want another 500
gallons just for sediment drop out? I thinking more and more that I do not.
I am seriously considering a couple of 5 gallons buckets that I can use to
screen large particales out to protect the pump. The window screening other
such material makes sense. It would be easy to dig a small hole for these,
and they could easily be disconnected, lifted out, cleaned and put back.
They would not contain much volume but the two chambers should aid in larger
particles not going directly into the pump itself, I would think.

To slow down the waters passage through the settling tank
several of us have added window screening. This works great
in allowing the muck to settle and the window screening is
very easily cleaned with a hose.


*sigh* So I am going to have a mechanical and a veggie filter. *sigh*

BV.



  #7   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2003, 08:35 PM
John Hines
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"John Hines" wrote in message
.. .
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?


Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!


*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip


It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it
with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to
settle out to the bottom.

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump. It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.


That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will
allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out.

The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter, which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.


Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.

A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter
to a finer filter, like the veggie filter.


  #8   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2003, 09:30 PM
Nedra
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

I disagree that we need additional filtering, John.
Let the veggie filter do its work. If you must,
place a screen in the veggie filter.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"John Hines" wrote in message
.. .
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?

Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!


*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip


It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it
with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to
settle out to the bottom.

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump.

It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle

in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume

in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I

am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes

of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.


That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will
allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out.

The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just

forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter,

which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.


Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.

A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter
to a finer filter, like the veggie filter.





  #9   Report Post  
Old 03-02-2003, 09:47 PM
BenignVanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
snip

It isn't hard, get a clear glass tumbler out of the kitchen, fill it
with pond water, shake up, and see how long it takes for the stuff to
settle out to the bottom.


snip

A good idea if my pond existed anywhere but on and paper and in that muddy
hole I started digging in October. *laugh* I was hoping to design and build
this, and have it part of the pond from day one. I wonder if I could do a
test using some muddy water from the hole? Clearly it is much dirtier now
then the pond will ever get. I wonder if that would give a valid barometer
of anything?

I realize that I have a mind block on a true settlement tank, so I am going
to beat that to death before I give in. I don't want to have nine or ten 55
gallons barrels in my yard. I don't want to dig holes to bury them. And I
don't want another 500 gallon pond (well maybe not).

Ok, so here are my current ideas...

One...A large rubbermaid the 30-40 gallon sized, sunk into the ground. Easy
to dig, easy to lift out if necessary. A second smaller rubbermaid 5-10
gallons. I cut out the sides of the smaller rubbermaid and cover it with
screen material. The pump goes in and the lid goes on. This gets sunk in the
larger rubbermaid, maybe sitting up on a cinderblock to keep it near the top
of the larger rubbermaid. Water is pump out of the smaller rubbermaid, which
pulls water into the larger rubbermaid.

Does anyone think this could work? If I am not concerned with a true
settlement tank and just want to keep the large particles from my pump, I
figured this small and simple setup could provide the needed slow down.

Second idea. Two five gallon buckets. Again, sunk in the ground. Pump sits
in one. The other is fed from the bottom. Screening is placed in the top of
the first and the water flows out a pipe in the top of the first bucket and
down into the bottom of the second bucket. Again, just enough to keep large
particles out of the pump. The pump raised off the bottom of the second
bucket then pumps to the veggie filter. Again...easy to dig...easy to lift
and clean.

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.


Zactly. If only I could know this from a book.

snip

That will work. Try my test in the first point., a few minutes will
allow a great percentage of stuff to settle out.

The idea of the settlement tank is to get the big stuff out.


snip

Right! So I wonder if a multi chamber unit, that is small in size (a la, my
original 4-5 five gallon bucket idea) but has numerous fallout chambers
would provide the needed large particle drop out, purely based on the large
particles being less likely to survive an up and down churning of water.

Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.


I like that run down. *laugh*

A settling tank is for the larger, coarser, heavier items, a prefilter
to a finer filter, like the veggie filter.


I plan to keep my veggie fliter to a shallow foot or so in depth. So again,
I wonder if I even need a settlement tank. I wouldn't mind having to clean a
1 foot deep pond out every now and then. I would think it would be fairly
easy.

BV.



  #10   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2003, 12:17 AM
John Hines
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

To sum it up, it takes a while, so the settling rate is how much (%)
settles out per minute.


Zactly. If only I could know this from a book.


Or work the other way, and setup your chamber to give as much settling
time as possible. Again, it is a balance of flow, vs settling time.

But yes, get a glass of muddy water, and give it try. You'll learn
something in the process.

Filtering needs to be done in stages,
first you screen out the fish,
then the largest items,
then the smaller items,
and so on.


I like that run down. *laugh*


There are various pieces to it. You can use different pieces, or methods
for each one, or combine them.

Yes, your veggie filter will work as a settling tank as well, if the
water sits in it for a while, which it should do. The particles also get
caught in the roots and such (like a mechanical filter).




  #11   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2003, 12:36 AM
Howard
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

The shape of the setting tank makes a big diff too. Think about how much
further solids have to drop in a tall narrow tank then in a shallow one.

Maybe you should look into another method of getting the coarse crap out.
Either brushes or maybe a vortex screen sort of device. Seen a DIY but
do not recall the URL. Maybe someone else has it bookmarked.

Howard

"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"BenignVanilla" wrote:

Is there a sizing algorithm for settlement tanks?


Sure, keep the water in the tank long enough for stuff to settle!


*laugh* OK, so what's that time period?
snip

If you connect a 30 gpm (1800gph) pump, that would allow less than 10
seconds settling time, which is to say none.

snip

I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an 1800GPH pump.

It
would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the water in the pond. With a
200 gallon settlement tank, the water would have only 7 minutes to settle

in
the tank. I realize this does not take into consideration of the volume in
the pipes. I am just trying to get close here. So is 7 minutes enough? I

am
guessing not. A 500 gallon settlement tank would provide about 17 minutes

of
settle time. Still seems a bit low.

The reason I ask is that, it seems like a lot of work and doing to get a
settlement tank going. Since I plan to have a shallow veggie filter,
cleaning it should not be a big deal. I am wondering if I should just

forget
the settlement tank, and let the sediment come into the veggie filter,

which
could easily be drained, cleaned and refilled.

BV.



Go google and take a look at some of the designs on the web.





  #12   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2003, 05:00 AM
BenignVanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"MLF" wrote in message
...

"BenignVanilla" wrote:
I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an
1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the
water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water
would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank...So is 7 minutes
enough? I am guessing not.


You're right. The other person who suggested that you put some material
in a glass of water, shake it up and see how long it takes to settle out
is not right either. Unlike your settling tank, the water in the glass
is not moving. The only way to get it to settle is to let it sit - a
loooooong time. Only the largest particles will settle in 7 minutes and
then only if the water is still enough (settling time in still water is
a function of the size of the particles and time).


I figured the motion of the water would have a dramatic effect.

snip

You're right. Go with the veggie filter. With proper inlet construction
and design you won't suck up much that will harm your filter.


So what is proper inlet construction? Seems all of the professional inlets
seem to be upside bowl shaped. Still learning what that is all about.

BTW: I have worked in municipal sewage and fresh water treatment plants
for some years. They use a process called "flocculation" to remove
suspended solids. Basically, this consists of introducing a material
into the water that collects on the particles, makes them clump
together, and then they are filtered or settled out. Very effective and
non-toxic. (Imagine putting a little powdered jello in a bucket of muddy
water - the gelatin would collect on the particles and you could filter
the solids out with a fine mesh cloth.)


Will Wild Cherry Jello work? That's my favorite. I supposed I should leave
the vodka out though eh?

BV.


  #13   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2003, 02:34 PM
Nedra
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter:

The Veggie
Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached
to a pump
that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just
near the bottom of your pond. The hose goes across
the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF.
I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold has
holes drilled all over it. This slows down the
water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The
exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or
9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump.

HTH

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"BenignVanilla" wrote in
message ...
"MLF" wrote in message
...

"BenignVanilla" wrote:
I did some quick math, assuming a 2000 gallon pond, and an
1800GPH pump. It would take the pump 67 minutes to circulate the
water in the pond. With a 200 gallon settlement tank, the water
would have only 7 minutes to settle in the tank...So is 7 minutes
enough? I am guessing not.


You're right. The other person who suggested that you put some material
in a glass of water, shake it up and see how long it takes to settle out
is not right either. Unlike your settling tank, the water in the glass
is not moving. The only way to get it to settle is to let it sit - a
loooooong time. Only the largest particles will settle in 7 minutes and
then only if the water is still enough (settling time in still water is
a function of the size of the particles and time).


I figured the motion of the water would have a dramatic effect.

snip

You're right. Go with the veggie filter. With proper inlet construction
and design you won't suck up much that will harm your filter.


So what is proper inlet construction? Seems all of the professional inlets
seem to be upside bowl shaped. Still learning what that is all about.

BTW: I have worked in municipal sewage and fresh water treatment plants
for some years. They use a process called "flocculation" to remove
suspended solids. Basically, this consists of introducing a material
into the water that collects on the particles, makes them clump
together, and then they are filtered or settled out. Very effective and
non-toxic. (Imagine putting a little powdered jello in a bucket of muddy
water - the gelatin would collect on the particles and you could filter
the solids out with a fine mesh cloth.)


Will Wild Cherry Jello work? That's my favorite. I supposed I should leave
the vodka out though eh?

BV.





  #14   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2003, 04:27 PM
BenignVanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"Howard" (remove XYZ) wrote in message
...
The shape of the setting tank makes a big diff too. Think about how much
further solids have to drop in a tall narrow tank then in a shallow one.

Maybe you should look into another method of getting the coarse crap out.
Either brushes or maybe a vortex screen sort of device. Seen a DIY but
do not recall the URL. Maybe someone else has it bookmarked.


I am mostly concerned with keeping large particles out of my pump. If little
stuff makes it to the veggie filter, I won't mind. I posted somewhere that I
intend to have a fairly shallow veggie filter, so cleaning it should not be
an issue. So maybe the better question I could have asked is, what is the
best way to keep the large particles down? I want to have a bury-able
solution. I am leaning toward a large rubber made design that will have the
pump in one end, and the feed in the other. Both separated by some screening
material.

BV.





  #15   Report Post  
Old 04-02-2003, 04:28 PM
BenignVanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default Settlement Tanks

"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...
BV, I can't tell if your for real or not? Jokes
are fine ... but Gee ... oh well. For the Veggie Filter:


5-6 posts of research/questions and math...one joke about jello referencing
another posters reference to gelatin, and you don't know if I am for real?
Lighten up. Gee whiz.

The Veggie
Filter is fed by a hose - one end of whichis attached
to a pump
that sits near the bottom - NOT on the bottom - just
near the bottom of your pond.


This is key to my problem. Originally I planned to have a pump IN the pond,
but now I plan to use a bottom drain, have it empty into my veggie filter.
This prevents me from having the pump in the pond because I don't want the
pump directly attached to the bottom drain, in order to prevent damage from
large debris. This started me on the concept of an intermediate or
settlement chamber, which I have found will be too large for my desired
area. So I have been playing with many different ideas on how to get a small
set of chambers to provide enough fall out time to protect the pump, but not
neccessiraly act as a REAL settlement chamber.

Someone suggested gelatin being used in some filter systems, not ponds
particularly, in order to help get the particles to glom together. Hence my
jello joke.

The hose goes across
the bottom of the pond, up the far side and into the VF.
I attached a manifold to the hose that goes into the VF. The manifold has
holes drilled all over it. This slows down the
water - allows for "dwell time" all over the VF. The
exit is a cut out, usually about 6 inches deep and 8 or
9 inches wide. Depends on the size of your pump.


Nice idea, but I don't think it will work for me in my design, as I am
looking for something to precede my pump. The manifold will probably be a
good idea for my VF, but I am still trying to solve my problem of protecting
the pump from sucking up a large particle.

BV.
aka Wild Cherry Jello Lover






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