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#1
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Concrete vs. Lined Ponds
I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi
pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a decade. The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me? TIA, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ |
#2
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"David Jeppesen" wrote in message ... I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a decade. The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me? TIA, David Whether a pond is made of concrete or is lined usually boils down to personal preference. Concrete is cheaper that a liner, but is a mess to work with. A lined pond is more versatile because it can be modified relatively easily. An all-concrete pond is much more difficult to construct than a lined pond, very difficult to modify, and is even more difficult than the one you describe (which used concrete grouted blocks). And if you go with a concrete pond, it is best to coat the concrete anyway to prevent extreme alkaline conditions in your pond water, so why not go with a liner to start with. Coating the concrete also helps to seal it. In the case of the one you saw in Thailand, perhaps plastic liners are too expensive (they do cost more than concrete) there, so he used the cheapest materials available. I like the versatility of a lined pond, and the ease of construction. My motto has always been 'keep it simple'. But like I said, it really is a matter of personal preference. Concrete ponds can be quite attractive. If you want a pond installed permanently and are certain that you will never, ever want or need to modify it, and have the time and money, a concrete pond might be for you. But if you do go that way, my advice is to plan well ahead of construction for everything you think you might need in the way of filtration, drainage, cleaning, ledges, plants, etc. Because once you build it, making major changes can be a real headache. |
#3
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For me, in a word it is freezing & weight, my pond is about 6,000 gallons, I
was just not up to mixing, reinforcing & all the other heavy work involved just to watch it crack and leak with the first hard freeze (Zone 5), to that end the cost is not important, cheaper or more expensive concrete was not worth the extra work & time that would be needed each spring to find and (try) to fix the leaks. "David Jeppesen" wrote in message ... I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a decade. The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me? TIA, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ |
#4
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On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:24:23 -0800, "Bob H"
wrote: For me, in a word it is freezing & weight, my pond is about 6,000 gallons, I was just not up to mixing, reinforcing & all the other heavy work involved just to watch it crack and leak with the first hard freeze (Zone 5), to that end the cost is not important, cheaper or more expensive concrete was not worth the extra work & time that would be needed each spring to find and (try) to fix the leaks. I am always amazed at how people talk about the "cost" of something when what they mean is really the "initial cost" while ignoring the total cost. Cheap tools and equipment comes to mind. I too am in zone 5 and made the same choice as you for similar reasons. My liner has survived two (three this year?) severe winters. Wonder how a concrete one would have done? John |
#5
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"David Jeppesen" wrote
The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds. Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep. Frost is no problem as long as the pond is full of water all winter. There is no maintenance as there is with liners. I never have to worry about puncturing the liner or repairing it or replacing it. The sides are vertical so I don't have any heron problems. I have tables around the edge under the water for my marginal plant pots. I can walk anywhere in the pond with no difficulty. With a new concrete pond, it would take a while for the alkaline condition to stabilize, which was not a concern in our old pool. The reason for the many liner ponds is cost. They are featured as do-it-yourself projects and can easily be removed when no longer wanted. Concrete ponds are a major undertaking and also a big undertaking to remove. Over the long haul, a concrete pond would be much cheaper and need much less maintenance. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
#6
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Basically everyone has covered it pretty well. But maybe there's so little
discussion about concrete ponds and their problems, because if properly built they just don't have as many problems! I built a small one, about 1200 gallons, nearly five years ago now and it has been wonderful. BUT, as one poster said, if you need to change anything, it's pretty major! Tim C. "David Jeppesen" wrote in message ... I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a decade. The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me? TIA, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ |
#7
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Stephen wrote They (liner ponds) are featured as
do-it-yourself projects Liner was something DH and captive children could do. A concrete pond would have inspired the engineer in him to get all carried away... know thy DH ;-) |
#8
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"Stephen Henning" wrote in message news "David Jeppesen" wrote The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. I'd be willing to bet your pool is reinforced concrete, and not just a quick pour. I'd also venture to say it's probably coated with some more dense material. I know in my zone of MD, all concrete pools are reinforced, and coated with a different material then they are constructed of. snip -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com http://www.iheartmypond.com/design/liners I'll be leaning on the bus stop post. |
#9
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"David Jeppesen" wrote:
I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a decade. The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me? TIA, David - Liner is very flexible and so it makes creating streams and ponds much simpler, especially if you want something that isn't rectangular. - Concrete requires reinforcement, forms and typically someone other than the home home owner to place. Pouring concrete will also probably require pumping and a piece of equipment to do that. - Concrete will create very alkaline water, so many water changes would be required. - Concrete usually gets coated anyway. - There have been more than one question on this NG asking about how to repair cracked concrete, so I don't think is has an advantage over liner in the leak department. - Depending on the size of the pond, I doubt pouring a proper pond would be cheaper than liner. Just MHO San Diego Joe 4,000 - 5,000 Gallons. Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#10
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Stephen Henning writes:
Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds. Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep. I wonder why you didn't leave it deep? |
#11
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In article ,
Andrew Burgess wrote: Stephen Henning writes: Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds. Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep. I wonder why you didn't leave it deep? Because water lilies don't grow in deeper water very well. We have about a dozen water lilies. Also, I can use wadders in cold weather when I am sinking the pots for the winter or putting the pots back out for the summer. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
#12
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Stephen Henning wrote:
In article , Andrew Burgess wrote: Stephen Henning writes: Obviously concrete ponds work since concrete swimming pools work. In fact all of the native fish hatcheries around here use concrete ponds. Our pond is a very old concrete swimming pool (over 50 years old) with the deep end filled in with clay so that it is about 3' deep. I wonder why you didn't leave it deep? Because water lilies don't grow in deeper water very well. We have about a dozen water lilies. Also, I can use wadders in cold weather when I am sinking the pots for the winter or putting the pots back out for the summer. My largest and most prolific lilies grow in 48" of water. |
#13
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wrote:
I wonder why you didn't leave it deep? Because water lilies don't grow in deeper water very well. We have about a dozen water lilies. Also, I can use wadders in cold weather when I am sinking the pots for the winter or putting the pots back out for the summer. My largest and most prolific lilies grow in 48" of water. My pond varies from 2.5 to 4 foot deep. The original pool before I filled in the deep end varied from 2.5 to 8 feet deep. So you see why I had to fill in the deep end. -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA |
#14
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My pond project -
1. Dug hole. Dug plant pockets. 2. Calculated amount of concrete to mix by hand. 3. Bought liner. I preferred concrete pond with plant pockets. I settled for liner with plant bed because it was much cheaper and easier. David Jeppesen wrote: I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a decade. The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me? TIA, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ |
#15
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Really good responses folks. Thank you. I have a much better grasp of
the issues now. They build everything out of concrete over there, and thus have gotten really good at it. And freezing is not an issue. Further, as labor for this kind of work runs at about $4 U.S. per day, I imagine that it would really run the costs up to import EPDM liners, especially when they would have had no experience in installing them anyway... Regards, David On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:42:25 -0700, David wrote: I recently returned from Thailand, and watched a chap build a koi pond, from scratch, out of concrete, concrete blocks, and mortar. One person, it took him less than three days to complete. Admittedly it was pretty rudimentary -- a nearly rectangular pond about 12x20x3 ft deep. I don't want to get into the debate about whether or not this is an appropriate koi pond; I can only say that he has two other smaller ones filled with koi that he has successfully run for over a decade. The question I would like to ask is why I see so little discussion about concrete ponds in the NG, and so much discussion about lined ponds,,,(and the associated problems with liners, etc.) This is a serious question, not a troll, from a newcomer to the subject. I have seen this same kind of pond construction throughout several countries in that part of the world, so I have to conclude that it must work. I just don't understand why we don't like it very much in our part of the world??? Can someone please enlighten me? TIA, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ For email, please eeliminate the threee dubbel-ewes in: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ |
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