"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the local
ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm" states, has
had devastating results for the local fauna.

Hardly. Tropical fish don't survive long even in Florida. Temperate &
sub-tropical fish are the real problem. Koi are far more of a threat than
tropicals.
--
derek

It is a well known fact that tilapia have create a huge problem in South
Florida. They are surviving in the wild there, and have been displacing native
species of both fish and vegetation.

So are a number of the Cichlid species which now are Game fish in Florida.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------
"George" wrote in message
news:GfSJd.22151$yY6.20422@attbi_s02...

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the
local
ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm" states, has
had devastating results for the local fauna.

Hardly. Tropical fish don't survive long even in Florida. Temperate &
sub-tropical fish are the real problem. Koi are far more of a threat
than
tropicals.
--
derek

It is a well known fact that tilapia have create a huge problem in South
Florida. They are surviving in the wild there, and have been displacing
native species of both fish and vegetation.

David,

This is not hat hard to realize. I sometimes put my Clown loaches outside
in the Summer, but you have to make sure that it is at a time when the
temperatures are suitable for the fish you are putting in the pond. When I
put the clowns outside the water has to be at least a stable 75 degrees all
the time. You can do this with any species, but the problem is getting them
back out of the pond when the temperatures start falling again. Clowns are
extremely hard to catch especially after the freedom of a good quantity of
water. I usually have to virtually drain the pond to get them out.

The advantage of KOI and Goldfish for the pond culture is that they can be
enjoyed from looking down on them from above, while tropicals kind of
disappear into the pond. I had six Clowns in the pond and virtually didn't
know if they all had made it until the early fall when I drained the pond to
get them out.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------
"David" wrote in message
...
I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.

Don't get me wrong -- I like koi. However, I also find the extremely
large variety of tropical freshwater fish fascinating. So I am
wondering whether it might be possible to bring the worlds of ponding,
water gardening, and tropical aquaria together in the same place? Has
anyone in the group ever attempted this, or know of anyone who has?

The first obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "why would you
want to do this, you couldn't see them? -- you can see koi." Well,
suppose one side of the pond was next to your living room, and had
windows into it. Like, well, the aquarium at your local zoo? (I'd
rather not get into all the practical issues of design and engineering
yet -- I'm only just starting to think at the very conceptual
top-level.)

The next obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "what happens
when all these tropical fish are subjected to freezing temperatures?"
Well, suppose this affair was to be installed in S.E. Asia, where it
never freezes. (Which if this thinking works out, will be the case.)

If you haven't lost interest by now, and already gone on the the next
post, we are now at the crux of the matter. It would appear to me
that this concept would have to deal with at least all of the same
issues that a koi ponder would have to address. Plus, the additional
untidy little detail of, "how do you keep all these cute little fish
from being sucked into and lost or chewed up in all of the ponding
apparatus?"

I have gone through many of the designs in rec.ponds, and in AWGS and
Koiphen, and this has been a very interesting and enlightening
experience for an (obvious) newcomer. I think some of this hardware
technology, and the bio-filtration systems are just wonderful! But is
it possible to apply it to little fishes? Is there a way to keep them
from all being sucked into a Savio skimmer, or a Spindrifter bottom
drain?

Is there any wishful hope that fishes generally tend to avoid things
that try to suck them in??? Or are completely different kinds of
filtration, (and a whole lot more manual effort) going to be
necessary?

(After, {if?}, I hear from anyone in this group, I will address
something like this to rec.aquaria.freshwater -- however, conversely,
they won't know anything about all of this wonderful ponding
technology that is available.)

Thank you for all your endurance if you have made it this far with me.
And most certainly, thank you for any thoughts.

Regards,
David

George wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the
local ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm"
states, has had devastating results for the local fauna.

Hardly. Tropical fish don't survive long even in Florida. Temperate &
sub-tropical fish are the real problem. Koi are far more of a threat
than tropicals.

It is a well known fact that tilapia have create a huge problem in South
Florida. They are surviving in the wild there, and have been displacing
native species of both fish and vegetation.

That's because Tilapia are a sub-tropical species, and Florida is just like
home for them. _Tropicals_ wouldn't be a problem in Florida. However, you
didn't bother to read what the OP said - he's in SE Asia, where it _is_
tropical, so it's still an issue, but no more so than escaped koi in
temperate climes.
--
derek

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
news
George wrote:

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the
local ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm"
states, has had devastating results for the local fauna.

Hardly. Tropical fish don't survive long even in Florida. Temperate &
sub-tropical fish are the real problem. Koi are far more of a threat
than tropicals.

It is a well known fact that tilapia have create a huge problem in South
Florida. They are surviving in the wild there, and have been displacing
native species of both fish and vegetation.

That's because Tilapia are a sub-tropical species, and Florida is just like
home for them. _Tropicals_ wouldn't be a problem in Florida. However, you
didn't bother to read what the OP said - he's in SE Asia, where it _is_
tropical, so it's still an issue, but no more so than escaped koi in
temperate climes.
--
derek

Oh I agree. I was just pointing out that it is an issue that should be
considered.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:22:24 -0600, "Tom L. La Bron"
wrote:

David,

This is not hat hard to realize. I sometimes put my Clown loaches outside
in the Summer, but you have to make sure that it is at a time when the
temperatures are suitable for the fish you are putting in the pond. When I
put the clowns outside the water has to be at least a stable 75 degrees all
the time. You can do this with any species, but the problem is getting them
back out of the pond when the temperatures start falling again. Clowns are
extremely hard to catch especially after the freedom of a good quantity of
water. I usually have to virtually drain the pond to get them out.

The advantage of KOI and Goldfish for the pond culture is that they can be
enjoyed from looking down on them from above, while tropicals kind of
disappear into the pond.
You have hit the nail precisely on the head there Tom. That indeed
is the reason for my thinking about this concept..
And the fact that we are talking S.E. Asia means, at least
temperature-wise, that I *shouldn't have to* catch them...

I had six Clowns in the pond and virtually didn't
know if they all had made it until the early fall when I drained the pond to
get them out.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------
"David" wrote in message
.. .
I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.

Don't get me wrong -- I like koi. However, I also find the extremely
large variety of tropical freshwater fish fascinating. So I am
wondering whether it might be possible to bring the worlds of ponding,
water gardening, and tropical aquaria together in the same place? Has
anyone in the group ever attempted this, or know of anyone who has?

The first obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "why would you
want to do this, you couldn't see them? -- you can see koi." Well,
suppose one side of the pond was next to your living room, and had
windows into it. Like, well, the aquarium at your local zoo? (I'd
rather not get into all the practical issues of design and engineering
yet -- I'm only just starting to think at the very conceptual
top-level.)

The next obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "what happens
when all these tropical fish are subjected to freezing temperatures?"
Well, suppose this affair was to be installed in S.E. Asia, where it
never freezes. (Which if this thinking works out, will be the case.)

If you haven't lost interest by now, and already gone on the the next
post, we are now at the crux of the matter. It would appear to me
that this concept would have to deal with at least all of the same
issues that a koi ponder would have to address. Plus, the additional
untidy little detail of, "how do you keep all these cute little fish
from being sucked into and lost or chewed up in all of the ponding
apparatus?"

I have gone through many of the designs in rec.ponds, and in AWGS and
Koiphen, and this has been a very interesting and enlightening
experience for an (obvious) newcomer. I think some of this hardware
technology, and the bio-filtration systems are just wonderful! But is
it possible to apply it to little fishes? Is there a way to keep them
from all being sucked into a Savio skimmer, or a Spindrifter bottom
drain?

Is there any wishful hope that fishes generally tend to avoid things
that try to suck them in??? Or are completely different kinds of
filtration, (and a whole lot more manual effort) going to be
necessary?

(After, {if?}, I hear from anyone in this group, I will address
something like this to rec.aquaria.freshwater -- however, conversely,
they won't know anything about all of this wonderful ponding
technology that is available.)

Thank you for all your endurance if you have made it this far with me.
And most certainly, thank you for any thoughts.

Regards,
David

On 25 Jan 2005 09:15:40 -0800, "ajames54"
wrote:

Well with the exception of the window which will be expensive but not
too difficult technically, you do a good job of describing most
tropical fish breeding facilities.
I hadn't even thought about that, Ajames!! So, clearly I need to
visit some of them.

However I would bet you are looking at more trouble than its worth.. a
250 gallon tank mounted into the wall can be protected from the
elements .. No huge temp swings, no falling leaves, no flooding the
fish out into the yard, no predetors... and no giant insurance premiums
to cover potential water damage to your house.
See, you are much more practical than I!!
I guess it's kind of like the question, "why do people climb
mountains" isn't it? IMHO, there are certainly more practical, (and
prudent) ways to spend one's time! (And I've climbed a few g)

anything filter related in ponding is also available for aquaria check
the aquaria groups and check www.thekrib.com.
I am, thanks!
If you decide to do it have fun and post pics...
I shall.
~~David

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:35:33 GMT, "George"
wrote:


An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the local
ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm" states, has had
devastating results for the local fauna.

Your point is well-taken George, *and applauded*!!
I am sure that it becomes a very difficult decision for aquarists --
"how do I properly dispose of these pets that have accumulated under
my watch?"
But protecting the local ecology has to come first!!

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:52:00 -0400, Derek Broughton
wrote:


Huge numbers of the tropical fish that are sold in N. America have been
raised in ponds in SE Asia.

When you visit the street markets over there (somewhat comparable to
our "flea" markets), you find literally hundreds of vendors selling
tropical fish, aquariums, and supplies. You can buy individual fish,
selected from tanks; however the "economy paks" are bags of one or two
dozen or so, of the same species, inflated with oxygen I assume, and
sealed. I counted well over a hundred different varieties of fish in
such bags at one vendor's stand. A bagful is maybe $2-3, depending on
the species.

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:22:58 GMT, Crashj
wrote:

On or about Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:59:06 -0700, David
wrote something like:

I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.

Don't get me wrong -- I like koi. However, I also find the extremely
large variety of tropical freshwater fish fascinating. So I am
wondering whether it might be possible to bring the worlds of ponding,
water gardening, and tropical aquaria together in the same place?

My ideal for this large outdoor aquarium would be a house on the Great
Barrier Reef with a glass window in the basement.
"World's Largest"

I like the idea. I have skippered, and anchored overnight a few times
out there; but I don't think the Aussie gov't will be permitting house
construction anytime soon... With mask and fins though, it's next
best.

On or about Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:18:29 -0700, David
wrote something like:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:35:33 GMT, "George"
wrote:


An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the local
ecosystem

"how do I properly dispose of these pets that have accumulated under
my watch?"

Remove your watch and scrub carefully.
--
Crashj