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Old 25-01-2005, 04:59 PM
David
 
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Default Tropical Aquarium in a Pond?

I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.

Don't get me wrong -- I like koi. However, I also find the extremely
large variety of tropical freshwater fish fascinating. So I am
wondering whether it might be possible to bring the worlds of ponding,
water gardening, and tropical aquaria together in the same place? Has
anyone in the group ever attempted this, or know of anyone who has?

The first obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "why would you
want to do this, you couldn't see them? -- you can see koi." Well,
suppose one side of the pond was next to your living room, and had
windows into it. Like, well, the aquarium at your local zoo? (I'd
rather not get into all the practical issues of design and engineering
yet -- I'm only just starting to think at the very conceptual
top-level.)

The next obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "what happens
when all these tropical fish are subjected to freezing temperatures?"
Well, suppose this affair was to be installed in S.E. Asia, where it
never freezes. (Which if this thinking works out, will be the case.)

If you haven't lost interest by now, and already gone on the the next
post, we are now at the crux of the matter. It would appear to me
that this concept would have to deal with at least all of the same
issues that a koi ponder would have to address. Plus, the additional
untidy little detail of, "how do you keep all these cute little fish
from being sucked into and lost or chewed up in all of the ponding
apparatus?"

I have gone through many of the designs in rec.ponds, and in AWGS and
Koiphen, and this has been a very interesting and enlightening
experience for an (obvious) newcomer. I think some of this hardware
technology, and the bio-filtration systems are just wonderful! But is
it possible to apply it to little fishes? Is there a way to keep them
from all being sucked into a Savio skimmer, or a Spindrifter bottom
drain?

Is there any wishful hope that fishes generally tend to avoid things
that try to suck them in??? Or are completely different kinds of
filtration, (and a whole lot more manual effort) going to be
necessary?

(After, {if?}, I hear from anyone in this group, I will address
something like this to rec.aquaria.freshwater -- however, conversely,
they won't know anything about all of this wonderful ponding
technology that is available.)

Thank you for all your endurance if you have made it this far with me.
And most certainly, thank you for any thoughts.

Regards,
David



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Old 25-01-2005, 05:15 PM
ajames54
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well with the exception of the window which will be expensive but not
too difficult technically, you do a good job of describing most
tropical fish breeding facilities.

However I would bet you are looking at more trouble than its worth.. a
250 gallon tank mounted into the wall can be protected from the
elements .. No huge temp swings, no falling leaves, no flooding the
fish out into the yard, no predetors... and no giant insurance premiums
to cover potential water damage to your house.

anything filter related in ponding is also available for aquaria check
the aquaria groups and check www.thekrib.com.
If you decide to do it have fun and post pics...

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Old 25-01-2005, 05:52 PM
Derek Broughton
 
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Default

David wrote:

I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.


Oh, no. Many of us would _love_ to keep tropicals in a pond.
Unfortunately, with the majority of posters being in N. America and Europe,
this just isn't possible except for a very few of us.

Don't get me wrong -- I like koi. However, I also find the extremely
large variety of tropical freshwater fish fascinating. So I am
wondering whether it might be possible to bring the worlds of ponding,
water gardening, and tropical aquaria together in the same place? Has
anyone in the group ever attempted this, or know of anyone who has?


I know there are people in Florida and California who have posted here with
Cichlid and Pleco successes.

The next obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "what happens
when all these tropical fish are subjected to freezing temperatures?"
Well, suppose this affair was to be installed in S.E. Asia, where it
never freezes. (Which if this thinking works out, will be the case.)


Huge numbers of the tropical fish that are sold in N. America have been
raised in ponds in SE Asia.

If you haven't lost interest by now, and already gone on the the next
post, we are now at the crux of the matter. It would appear to me
that this concept would have to deal with at least all of the same
issues that a koi ponder would have to address. Plus, the additional
untidy little detail of, "how do you keep all these cute little fish
from being sucked into and lost or chewed up in all of the ponding
apparatus?"


Why? Fish _do_ get sucked up in the pumps, but the flow through your
average pond is far less than even a fairly slow moving stream, so it's
pretty infrequent. The fact that they're tropicals rather than koi is
pretty irrelevant.

Is there any wishful hope that fishes generally tend to avoid things
that try to suck them in???


I'd say so. Fish may have very _small_ brains, but why would they want to
be sucked into a black hole, that leads to no known source of food or sex
(of course, if the finny object of their desires already got sucked in, all
bets are off :-))

Go for it!
--
derek
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Old 25-01-2005, 06:05 PM
Bob Koerber
 
Posts: n/a
Default


I see absolutly nothing wrong with it. I have a 3000 gallon pond that
is inside my heated greenhouse. Between my mechanical and veggie filter
I have maintained crystal clear water for over 4 years. Although I have
koi and goldfish you would be able to see any fish down to the bottom.
Dream and enjoy that's what it is all about.

Bob

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Old 25-01-2005, 07:52 PM
Bill Stock
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"David" wrote in message
...
I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.

Don't get me wrong -- I like koi. However, I also find the extremely
large variety of tropical freshwater fish fascinating. So I am
wondering whether it might be possible to bring the worlds of ponding,
water gardening, and tropical aquaria together in the same place? Has
anyone in the group ever attempted this, or know of anyone who has?

The first obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "why would you
want to do this, you couldn't see them? -- you can see koi." Well,
suppose one side of the pond was next to your living room, and had
windows into it. Like, well, the aquarium at your local zoo? (I'd
rather not get into all the practical issues of design and engineering
yet -- I'm only just starting to think at the very conceptual
top-level.)

The next obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "what happens
when all these tropical fish are subjected to freezing temperatures?"
Well, suppose this affair was to be installed in S.E. Asia, where it
never freezes. (Which if this thinking works out, will be the case.)

If you haven't lost interest by now, and already gone on the the next
post, we are now at the crux of the matter. It would appear to me
that this concept would have to deal with at least all of the same
issues that a koi ponder would have to address. Plus, the additional
untidy little detail of, "how do you keep all these cute little fish
from being sucked into and lost or chewed up in all of the ponding
apparatus?"

I have gone through many of the designs in rec.ponds, and in AWGS and
Koiphen, and this has been a very interesting and enlightening
experience for an (obvious) newcomer. I think some of this hardware
technology, and the bio-filtration systems are just wonderful! But is
it possible to apply it to little fishes? Is there a way to keep them
from all being sucked into a Savio skimmer, or a Spindrifter bottom
drain?

Is there any wishful hope that fishes generally tend to avoid things
that try to suck them in??? Or are completely different kinds of
filtration, (and a whole lot more manual effort) going to be
necessary?

(After, {if?}, I hear from anyone in this group, I will address
something like this to rec.aquaria.freshwater -- however, conversely,
they won't know anything about all of this wonderful ponding
technology that is available.)

Thank you for all your endurance if you have made it this far with me.
And most certainly, thank you for any thoughts.

Regards,
David


Sounds like a good project.

I always thought it would be cool to have an indoor/outdoor pond. So the
fish could come and go between the house and outside. But living in the
Frozen North, this would be a seasonal project. Of course, I would stock it
with KOI!








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Old 25-01-2005, 09:29 PM
John Hines
 
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Default

David wrote:

The next obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "what happens
when all these tropical fish are subjected to freezing temperatures?"
Well, suppose this affair was to be installed in S.E. Asia, where it
never freezes. (Which if this thinking works out, will be the case.)


They die. That is why they (tropicals) live where it don't freeze.

Temperate fish live where it freezes.

You could stock something like sunfish, or bass, catfish, pike, muskies,
etc, in addition to your koi, assuming they (koi) are big enough not to
be eaten.
  #7   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2005, 10:35 PM
George
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"ajames54" wrote in message
ups.com...
Well with the exception of the window which will be expensive but not
too difficult technically, you do a good job of describing most
tropical fish breeding facilities.

However I would bet you are looking at more trouble than its worth.. a
250 gallon tank mounted into the wall can be protected from the
elements .. No huge temp swings, no falling leaves, no flooding the
fish out into the yard, no predetors... and no giant insurance premiums
to cover potential water damage to your house.

anything filter related in ponding is also available for aquaria check
the aquaria groups and check www.thekrib.com.
If you decide to do it have fun and post pics...


An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the local
ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm" states, has had
devastating results for the local fauna.


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Old 25-01-2005, 11:30 PM
San Diego Joe
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"David" wrote:

I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.

snip

The next obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "what happens
when all these tropical fish are subjected to freezing temperatures?"
Well, suppose this affair was to be installed in S.E. Asia, where it
never freezes. (Which if this thinking works out, will be the case.)


I live in San Diego, with no frost. I kept an Oscar in my pond from May thru
October then bring him inside. I placed some platties in the pond in June to
see how they would do. There are a couple left. My water - at it's coldest
point - hits about 50 F. That's way too cold for the Oscar. I lost a lot of
platties when that temperature went over a few weeks.

It's not if it never freezes, it's, "what will the minimum water temp be.

If you haven't lost interest by now, and already gone on the the next
post, we are now at the crux of the matter. It would appear to me
that this concept would have to deal with at least all of the same
issues that a koi ponder would have to address. Plus, the additional
untidy little detail of, "how do you keep all these cute little fish
from being sucked into and lost or chewed up in all of the ponding
apparatus?"


I have a net in my skimmer to stop that. There were very few that I found in
the net. So I think they figure it out. Most skimmers I have seen on the
market today have such a net built in.

I have gone through many of the designs in rec.ponds, and in AWGS and
Koiphen, and this has been a very interesting and enlightening
experience for an (obvious) newcomer. I think some of this hardware
technology, and the bio-filtration systems are just wonderful! But is
it possible to apply it to little fishes? Is there a way to keep them
from all being sucked into a Savio skimmer, or a Spindrifter bottom
drain?

See net, above.

Is there any wishful hope that fishes generally tend to avoid things
that try to suck them in??? Or are completely different kinds of
filtration, (and a whole lot more manual effort) going to be
necessary?

Ditto

(After, {if?}, I hear from anyone in this group, I will address
something like this to rec.aquaria.freshwater -- however, conversely,
they won't know anything about all of this wonderful ponding
technology that is available.)

Thank you for all your endurance if you have made it this far with me.
And most certainly, thank you for any thoughts.

Regards,
David




San Diego Joe
4,000 - 5,000 Gallons.
Goldfish, a RES named Colombo and an Oscar.



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Old 25-01-2005, 11:53 PM
John Hines
 
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Default

"George" wrote:


"ajames54" wrote in message
oups.com...
Well with the exception of the window which will be expensive but not
too difficult technically, you do a good job of describing most
tropical fish breeding facilities.

However I would bet you are looking at more trouble than its worth.. a
250 gallon tank mounted into the wall can be protected from the
elements .. No huge temp swings, no falling leaves, no flooding the
fish out into the yard, no predetors... and no giant insurance premiums
to cover potential water damage to your house.

anything filter related in ponding is also available for aquaria check
the aquaria groups and check www.thekrib.com.
If you decide to do it have fun and post pics...


An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the local
ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm" states, has had
devastating results for the local fauna.


Oh, yeah I forgot about snakeheads, They would be great in a pond.
(NOT!)

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Old 25-01-2005, 11:59 PM
John Hines
 
Posts: n/a
Default

David wrote:

The first obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "why would you
want to do this, you couldn't see them? -- you can see koi." Well,
suppose one side of the pond was next to your living room, and had
windows into it. Like, well, the aquarium at your local zoo?


How about a cheap LCD camera, placed in a Plexiglas enclosure, that is
submersed in the pond? Run this to an RF modulator, and put it on you
TV on an unused channel, to your existing TV's.

(I'd
rather not get into all the practical issues of design and engineering
yet -- I'm only just starting to think at the very conceptual
top-level.)


It is a lot easier to keep a camera alive, and not all that hard to
remote. G Many of them will work with IR lights, so as to not disturb
the fishies as they sleep. IR LEDS could provide cheap illumination.


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Old 26-01-2005, 12:22 AM
Crashj
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On or about Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:59:06 -0700, David
wrote something like:

I can already hear the howls of derision, and taste the flames of
scorn g.

Don't get me wrong -- I like koi. However, I also find the extremely
large variety of tropical freshwater fish fascinating. So I am
wondering whether it might be possible to bring the worlds of ponding,
water gardening, and tropical aquaria together in the same place?


My ideal for this large outdoor aquarium would be a house on the Great
Barrier Reef with a glass window in the basement.
"World's Largest"
--
Crashj
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Old 26-01-2005, 09:33 AM
George
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"George" wrote:


"ajames54" wrote in message
roups.com...
Well with the exception of the window which will be expensive but not
too difficult technically, you do a good job of describing most
tropical fish breeding facilities.

However I would bet you are looking at more trouble than its worth.. a
250 gallon tank mounted into the wall can be protected from the
elements .. No huge temp swings, no falling leaves, no flooding the
fish out into the yard, no predetors... and no giant insurance premiums
to cover potential water damage to your house.

anything filter related in ponding is also available for aquaria check
the aquaria groups and check www.thekrib.com.
If you decide to do it have fun and post pics...


An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the local
ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm" states, has had
devastating results for the local fauna.


Oh, yeah I forgot about snakeheads, They would be great in a pond.
(NOT!)


I thought of that too, but I was really thinking about fish like Tilapia, which
have caused a lot of problems in Florida.


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Old 26-01-2005, 09:36 AM
George
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Hines" wrote in message
...
David wrote:

The first obvious (and reasonable) question would be, "why would you
want to do this, you couldn't see them? -- you can see koi." Well,
suppose one side of the pond was next to your living room, and had
windows into it. Like, well, the aquarium at your local zoo?


How about a cheap LCD camera, placed in a Plexiglas enclosure, that is
submersed in the pond? Run this to an RF modulator, and put it on you
TV on an unused channel, to your existing TV's.


Interesting Idea. Or you could use an old digital web camera, and broadcast it
over the internet.

(I'd
rather not get into all the practical issues of design and engineering
yet -- I'm only just starting to think at the very conceptual
top-level.)


It is a lot easier to keep a camera alive, and not all that hard to
remote. G Many of them will work with IR lights, so as to not disturb
the fishies as they sleep. IR LEDS could provide cheap illumination.



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Old 26-01-2005, 01:58 PM
ajames54
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mine is going to be in either Costa Rica or the Keys...

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Old 26-01-2005, 02:51 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

George wrote:

An additional concern is for these fish to 'inadvertantly' enter the local
ecosystem, where, as is the case in Florida and other "warm" states, has
had devastating results for the local fauna.


Hardly. Tropical fish don't survive long even in Florida. Temperate &
sub-tropical fish are the real problem. Koi are far more of a threat than
tropicals.
--
derek


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