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Old 08-02-2005, 06:02 AM
kc
 
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Default Heron season over?

I'm in Atlanta, GA and looks like all the leaves have finally fallen--they
were so embedded in the net I had over my pond, I decided to toss it and
maybe get a new one.
I really prefer not having a net over the pond, especially when I start
my plants up again--are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?
Thanks--
Kirsten


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Old 08-02-2005, 01:25 PM
Bonnie
 
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Default

--are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?
Thanks--
Kirsten



I live in NJ and the herons can be a problem whenever the
pond isn't frozen over.

--
Bonnie
NJ

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Old 08-02-2005, 02:47 PM
kathy
 
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Default

kc wrote --are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter

http://museum.nhm.uga.edu/gawildlife...aherodias.html

From the above web page it looks like you have a year round population

AND a migratory population. So you'll have more herons in the state in
the winter.

Here in Washington state we have a year round population.

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Old 08-02-2005, 03:37 PM
kc
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks, looks like the netting goes back on....!
Kirsten
"kathy" wrote in message
oups.com...
kc wrote --are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter

http://museum.nhm.uga.edu/gawildlife...aherodias.html

From the above web page it looks like you have a year round population

AND a migratory population. So you'll have more herons in the state in
the winter.

Here in Washington state we have a year round population.



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Old 08-02-2005, 03:38 PM
Hal
 
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Default

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 00:02:17 -0500, "kc" wrote:

I really prefer not having a net over the pond, especially when I start
my plants up again--are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?


There are lots of opinions on herons, like most things about ponding.
It stands to reason a heron would be more of a threat to a garden pond
during winter here in the South because the fish in the wild are in
deep holes where the water is warmer and their normal food supply is
out of reach of the heron. I think your location might make a
difference, I'm located between two larger (acres large, clay/mud
bottom) and see the herons fly over sometimes. I was cleaned out one
year, but my yard around the pond had nothing but lawn. Now I have
so much junk a heron has no place to land without hitting something
with it's wings. It has been about 5 years since the pond was
cleaned out. I didn't net this year and had no problems, except
having to dip out the leaves the net didn't catch.

Regards,

Hal in Warner Robins


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Old 08-02-2005, 03:57 PM
Benign Vanilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"kc" wrote in message
...
I'm in Atlanta, GA and looks like all the leaves have finally fallen--they
were so embedded in the net I had over my pond, I decided to toss it and
maybe get a new one.
I really prefer not having a net over the pond, especially when I start
my plants up again--are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?


My Heron has flown over the nieghborhood (in Maryland) all summer. He didn't
stop by my pond under late summer, early autumn. We have not seen him, since
it got cold. There is also a large run-off pond around the corner where many
heron hang out, and I have not seen them there either.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
http://www.iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.



  #7   Report Post  
Old 08-02-2005, 08:08 PM
Elaine T
 
Posts: n/a
Default

kc wrote:
I'm in Atlanta, GA and looks like all the leaves have finally fallen--they
were so embedded in the net I had over my pond, I decided to toss it and
maybe get a new one.
I really prefer not having a net over the pond, especially when I start
my plants up again--are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?
Thanks--
Kirsten


My parents live in Augusta, GA and the great blue heron that visits the
natural pond behind their house is there year round. Gorgeous bird.
There are hawks too that snatch frogs out of the water.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

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Old 09-02-2005, 02:03 AM
Phisherman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 00:02:17 -0500, "kc" wrote:

I'm in Atlanta, GA and looks like all the leaves have finally fallen--they
were so embedded in the net I had over my pond, I decided to toss it and
maybe get a new one.
I really prefer not having a net over the pond, especially when I start
my plants up again--are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?
Thanks--
Kirsten


It doesn't end. Herons are looking all year round. They recall
previous fishing spots too. I stock my pond with feeder goldfish, at
15 cents each. Some grow to 10", others die, others get eaten by
water snakes, raccoons, and herons. Herons are the worst because they
keep coming back until the pond is empty.
  #9   Report Post  
Old 09-02-2005, 02:11 AM
kathy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

phisherman,

That's probably what I would do if faced with a determined
and hungry heron. Stock the pond with feeder fish.
I'm curious if you ever tried any deterrent for the herons?

I had a heron visit my pond two days in a row and the dogs
and I were able to scare it off. Being a mom at home has its
advantages when dealing with critters, both human and nonhuman ;-)

kathy

  #10   Report Post  
Old 09-02-2005, 03:53 AM
~ Windsong ~
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"kc" wrote in message
...
--are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?

======================
Here in TN they're a problem all year round, along with the snapping
turtles, huge bullfrogs, water snakes and other fish predators.
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



  #11   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 05:57 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?


Unless the pond ices over, or dries out, herons may visit...

ahah, someone mentioned herons... this summons 'the heron file'
compiled from various ponders experience, over the years....

Herons have a muddle of habits, some go in for neat extermination jobs,
others may be picky, leaving the whole body of a fish and only eating
the tail section. Go round a lake after herons have been and you will
find a lot of variation in kill habits... Yes, they will fly around and
around a location on many days before even landing on a tall tree
close, for a more careful look... Very keen eyesight and hearing,
indeedy...

After a serious heron attack, its quite normal for fish to go hiding
for weeks, so you never quite know what has happened.... on a well
planted pond with a lot of cover, most fish survive though you will
notice the dramatic difference in their usual behaviour and wonder why.

Here's a few notes collected from observations and other folks
experience

1) Predator nets.... cheaper than losing koi, downside, local animals
can get trapped in it, snared. Not very pleasant explaining to your
neighbor why their pedigree cat or dog lost its life or leg through
strangulation. Predator nets are probably the most cost effective
barrier method, a large mesh of around 4" should allow most varieties
of plants to grow through it without tangling the mesh. Smaller meshes
tend to be a mess with plants, strangled pets, and dead frogs by the
time Spring arrives...

2) Barrier method.... Suspend strong fish line taut, 12" around the
pond, herons hate trip wires. An elegantly simple way to baffle a dim
fishbag on stilts, it often works, many folk have reported seeing
herons 'baffled' this way.... a near invisible line that they can't
see, bump into, cannot step over without tripping, is enough to stop
them....

3) Hiding places... Step up cover within the pond... water lilies....
big bits of pipe, float large sheets of black polythene (trash bags
will do) trippy stuff for tangling up predators... hiding places for
fish. Surprisingly, many black plastic objects, when submersed become
virtually invisible, in a natural setting, so the idea of this clutter
in pond is not as bad as it sounds. I like this method, it creates a
lot of hiding places and is virtually invisible to the usually
attractive pond setting, it makes it very difficult for the likes of
persistent herons and raccoons when they raid.... useful in winter when
foliage is bare and fish want somewhere quiet, to hibernate, bare
crystal clear ponds must be an easy target for predators....

4) Pond design... When you make a pond, make 45=B0 sides, herons have
gangly legs, they like 'easy walking' conditions, they hate 'trippy'
pond surroundings... The one common weakness of predatory birds is the
vulnerability of their gangly long legs, they absolutely rely on an
easy landing place, and an easy stroll into the pond, handy shallow
terraces are a big help....

5) Trapping... I can't be so fiendish, I cant advise you put out
snares... a simple loop of fish line can lock onto a predators leg.
Nasty way to die, that

6) Shooting... Not everyone in the world live in areas where herons are
protected, or rare... I can't reccommend a .22 air rifle, a bit
politically incorrect, even though a heron is easy to hit at 200' with
a decent scope, unfair, too easy I guess. Anyone who has used a rifle
properly could hit a quarter at 100 feet so for the squeamish, clipping
some tail feathers is quite possible .....or hit a bucket placed beside
the pond loud and close enough to frighten the bejasus out of the vile
fish bag... that is a quite effective clean way....Alas rifles in most
peoples hands are quite counter productive, you can waste a lot of
time waiting for the opportunity to use it, to learn how to be
competent with a rifle and the consequences of a bad tempered person
with a lethal tool is well, unpopular...

7) Sprinklers... For the flash and the opulent, linking a motion
detector and a sprinkler might provide some amusement to scare off the
dratted bird. Or, a hose with a timer, that briefly blasts water every
15 minutes or so, enough to startle a pest... if the risk of absent
mind folk getting a drenching is bothersome, perhaps the motion
detector could be linked with an emergency service strobe light, that
would be enough to freak most long leggedy villains away

8) Aquatic plants... A heavily planted pond makes life very difficult
for predators, even though the big bright dumber fish will always be
taken first, shy nervous timid (smart) fish and the little 'uns ought
to be able to find good hidey holes easy... the rafts of aquatic iris,
water lilies make life very difficult for hunters to find fish, let
alone move around or risk stumbling among

9) Fish feeding routine.... Have a special food signal, like tap a
stone three times at feed time. You don't want your fish to associate
every visitor to your pond, with a free meal.... one day it will be a
heron, looking for freebies...

10) Heron statue... what a novel idea, picturesque even. They always
seem to be coming on the market, second hand. Never heard anyone had
any success with them, other than folk who sell them, I guess.... Now I
have heard of someone linking an owl statue to a motion detector and
they swore that worked... that would be a hoot if it hooted when motion
was detected....

11) Sonic guns.... There is a very promising new device coming onto the
market.... sonic 'guns' that fire a narrow band of extreme noise in a
confined direction. Link this to a motion detector and it really will
do the job... herons are incredibly sensitive and nervous, a violent
sound like that pointed at the pond area will really blow them away
when they trigger the sonic gun. Because of the controlled direction of
the sonics, its not likely to bother neighbours, much.... Very
promising, that method..... Another device that can be activated by a
motion detector is a strobe light, the sort that emergency vehicles
use, that can drive off predatory birds which are unable to hunt with
such a dramatic distraction... that has been reported to keep fish
ponds free of attacks recently, not a big deal to find and install.

12) Baseball bats. Herons by nature are incredibly careful hunters, you
won't get within 50 feet with a bat. Anyone thinking of trying such a
method will quickly learn the bird is a lot smarter than them, and that
will be just sooooo embarrassing....

13) Crocodile heads... that might well work in Southern areas where
crocodiles are well known predators, however, many herons are not
familiar with crocodiles at a young stage, or have never seen them
before so in many cases it just won't be noticed, except, in areas
where crocodiles are well known...

14) Tin traps.... Another 'scarer' for discouraging prowlers could be a
tin trap, a big can with some large round stones to rattle loud within,
this can be precariously perched and attached to a fishing line trip
wire along likely approaches. Very effective after dark and around
morning and dusk...

15) Shishi odoshi.... Another critter scaring method, which may or may
not work against predatory birds but is supposedly effective against
deer is the Japanese 'shishi odoshi'....If it is a little out of the
way without too many neighbours close, this old japanese design for
scaring deer might be effective, made out of a few large pieces of
bamboo and relying on a trickle of water to keep it going, it's
supposed to work on deer, though, moose might be a different matter...
It could drive you nuts if you made it a little loud...

Checkout:
http://www.canadianhomeworkshop.com/...hi_odoshi.html

16) Koi 'decoys'.... Believe it or not, folk are reporting they work.
Someone somewhere makes rubber? koi which you can moor in the pond in
an open area... looking like a dozey sitting 'duck' the heron sneaks
up, batters at it a few times, tries to yank the koi plus anchor out of
the water, only to discover it can't.... by which time all the real koi
are well alerted and in hiding, having a good snicker, I hope

The time when predatory birds go pond hopping is often determined by
local factors, drought, floods or freezes have made difficult or
clouded their usual hunting places, early morning and fog is often a
factor to make them bold enough to go close to places where ponds are,
compact sushi bars are preferred....

Herons are creatures of habit, they will 'tour' their favourite water
holes quite religiously. When they spot a new pond with fish they will
add that pond to their schedule and turn up like clockwork with the
same routine...

Their eyesight is extremely good, it is something of a big advantage if
the fish turn out to be garishly bright koi or goldfish... Not unlike a
neon sign shouting 'sushi bar' loud and clear...

The loathsome fishbag on stilts might circle a promising pond a couple
of times about 400 yards away, checking the whole area then appear to
disappear over the horizon... They will disappear if they have spotted
anything lurking, perhaps a cat, or fox is about...

Several minutes later, they will overfly it once or twice, gliding
quite slow, to bank and turn and seem to go away. Five minutes or so
they then come very slow, steady and at a low height from a completely
different angle as if to take by surprise any skulking entity...
hedgehopping, literally...

Should they spot one little thing that frets them, they will abort
landing...

They want the pond all to themselves, with no complications like dogs,
or people about...

Only then, when they are absolutely sure it's safe to plunder, will
they come in and land in a high place overlooking the pond. Perhaps a
chimney, or a small tree close to the pond.

Herons quite often explore ponds in gardens during times of poor
visibility, fog, at first light when their usual haunts have become
difficult, for example when floods have clouded waters, or when ice has
formed, the conditions for likely heron attacks can be predicted if you
keep an eye on the weather forecast...

When they have landed at a high vantage point overlooking the pond
area, they really take their time and look with those beady little dark
eyes, to make absolutely sure nothing is lurking before flapping to the
best landing spot close to the pond...

I say they, because it is not unusual for them to go about in pairs...

Should your pond be netted they will go to some lengths to try and get
within, finding or forcing any gap that they can... When they are
safely well within the net, that is quite a good time to, errr....

..=2E.surprise them

regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

n

  #12   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 05:58 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default

are herons a problem all year round or just in the
winter, does anyone know?


Unless the pond ices over, or dries out, herons may visit...

ahah, someone mentioned herons... this summons 'the heron file'
compiled from various ponders experience, over the years....

Herons have a muddle of habits, some go in for neat extermination jobs,
others may be picky, leaving the whole body of a fish and only eating
the tail section. Go round a lake after herons have been and you will
find a lot of variation in kill habits... Yes, they will fly around and
around a location on many days before even landing on a tall tree
close, for a more careful look... Very keen eyesight and hearing,
indeedy...

After a serious heron attack, its quite normal for fish to go hiding
for weeks, so you never quite know what has happened.... on a well
planted pond with a lot of cover, most fish survive though you will
notice the dramatic difference in their usual behaviour and wonder why.

Here's a few notes collected from observations and other folks
experience

1) Predator nets.... cheaper than losing koi, downside, local animals
can get trapped in it, snared. Not very pleasant explaining to your
neighbor why their pedigree cat or dog lost its life or leg through
strangulation. Predator nets are probably the most cost effective
barrier method, a large mesh of around 4" should allow most varieties
of plants to grow through it without tangling the mesh. Smaller meshes
tend to be a mess with plants, strangled pets, and dead frogs by the
time Spring arrives...

2) Barrier method.... Suspend strong fish line taut, 12" around the
pond, herons hate trip wires. An elegantly simple way to baffle a dim
fishbag on stilts, it often works, many folk have reported seeing
herons 'baffled' this way.... a near invisible line that they can't
see, bump into, cannot step over without tripping, is enough to stop
them....

3) Hiding places... Step up cover within the pond... water lilies....
big bits of pipe, float large sheets of black polythene (trash bags
will do) trippy stuff for tangling up predators... hiding places for
fish. Surprisingly, many black plastic objects, when submersed become
virtually invisible, in a natural setting, so the idea of this clutter
in pond is not as bad as it sounds. I like this method, it creates a
lot of hiding places and is virtually invisible to the usually
attractive pond setting, it makes it very difficult for the likes of
persistent herons and raccoons when they raid.... useful in winter when
foliage is bare and fish want somewhere quiet, to hibernate, bare
crystal clear ponds must be an easy target for predators....

4) Pond design... When you make a pond, make 45=B0 sides, herons have
gangly legs, they like 'easy walking' conditions, they hate 'trippy'
pond surroundings... The one common weakness of predatory birds is the
vulnerability of their gangly long legs, they absolutely rely on an
easy landing place, and an easy stroll into the pond, handy shallow
terraces are a big help....

5) Trapping... I can't be so fiendish, I cant advise you put out
snares... a simple loop of fish line can lock onto a predators leg.
Nasty way to die, that

6) Shooting... Not everyone in the world live in areas where herons are
protected, or rare... I can't reccommend a .22 air rifle, a bit
politically incorrect, even though a heron is easy to hit at 200' with
a decent scope, unfair, too easy I guess. Anyone who has used a rifle
properly could hit a quarter at 100 feet so for the squeamish, clipping
some tail feathers is quite possible .....or hit a bucket placed beside
the pond loud and close enough to frighten the bejasus out of the vile
fish bag... that is a quite effective clean way....Alas rifles in most
peoples hands are quite counter productive, you can waste a lot of
time waiting for the opportunity to use it, to learn how to be
competent with a rifle and the consequences of a bad tempered person
with a lethal tool is well, unpopular...

7) Sprinklers... For the flash and the opulent, linking a motion
detector and a sprinkler might provide some amusement to scare off the
dratted bird. Or, a hose with a timer, that briefly blasts water every
15 minutes or so, enough to startle a pest... if the risk of absent
mind folk getting a drenching is bothersome, perhaps the motion
detector could be linked with an emergency service strobe light, that
would be enough to freak most long leggedy villains away

8) Aquatic plants... A heavily planted pond makes life very difficult
for predators, even though the big bright dumber fish will always be
taken first, shy nervous timid (smart) fish and the little 'uns ought
to be able to find good hidey holes easy... the rafts of aquatic iris,
water lilies make life very difficult for hunters to find fish, let
alone move around or risk stumbling among

9) Fish feeding routine.... Have a special food signal, like tap a
stone three times at feed time. You don't want your fish to associate
every visitor to your pond, with a free meal.... one day it will be a
heron, looking for freebies...

10) Heron statue... what a novel idea, picturesque even. They always
seem to be coming on the market, second hand. Never heard anyone had
any success with them, other than folk who sell them, I guess.... Now I
have heard of someone linking an owl statue to a motion detector and
they swore that worked... that would be a hoot if it hooted when motion
was detected....

11) Sonic guns.... There is a very promising new device coming onto the
market.... sonic 'guns' that fire a narrow band of extreme noise in a
confined direction. Link this to a motion detector and it really will
do the job... herons are incredibly sensitive and nervous, a violent
sound like that pointed at the pond area will really blow them away
when they trigger the sonic gun. Because of the controlled direction of
the sonics, its not likely to bother neighbours, much.... Very
promising, that method..... Another device that can be activated by a
motion detector is a strobe light, the sort that emergency vehicles
use, that can drive off predatory birds which are unable to hunt with
such a dramatic distraction... that has been reported to keep fish
ponds free of attacks recently, not a big deal to find and install.

12) Baseball bats. Herons by nature are incredibly careful hunters, you
won't get within 50 feet with a bat. Anyone thinking of trying such a
method will quickly learn the bird is a lot smarter than them, and that
will be just sooooo embarrassing....

13) Crocodile heads... that might well work in Southern areas where
crocodiles are well known predators, however, many herons are not
familiar with crocodiles at a young stage, or have never seen them
before so in many cases it just won't be noticed, except, in areas
where crocodiles are well known...

14) Tin traps.... Another 'scarer' for discouraging prowlers could be a
tin trap, a big can with some large round stones to rattle loud within,
this can be precariously perched and attached to a fishing line trip
wire along likely approaches. Very effective after dark and around
morning and dusk...

15) Shishi odoshi.... Another critter scaring method, which may or may
not work against predatory birds but is supposedly effective against
deer is the Japanese 'shishi odoshi'....If it is a little out of the
way without too many neighbours close, this old japanese design for
scaring deer might be effective, made out of a few large pieces of
bamboo and relying on a trickle of water to keep it going, it's
supposed to work on deer, though, moose might be a different matter...
It could drive you nuts if you made it a little loud...

Checkout:
http://www.canadianhomeworkshop.com/...hi_odoshi.html

16) Koi 'decoys'.... Believe it or not, folk are reporting they work.
Someone somewhere makes rubber? koi which you can moor in the pond in
an open area... looking like a dozey sitting 'duck' the heron sneaks
up, batters at it a few times, tries to yank the koi plus anchor out of
the water, only to discover it can't.... by which time all the real koi
are well alerted and in hiding, having a good snicker, I hope

The time when predatory birds go pond hopping is often determined by
local factors, drought, floods or freezes have made difficult or
clouded their usual hunting places, early morning and fog is often a
factor to make them bold enough to go close to places where ponds are,
compact sushi bars are preferred....

Herons are creatures of habit, they will 'tour' their favourite water
holes quite religiously. When they spot a new pond with fish they will
add that pond to their schedule and turn up like clockwork with the
same routine...

Their eyesight is extremely good, it is something of a big advantage if
the fish turn out to be garishly bright koi or goldfish... Not unlike a
neon sign shouting 'sushi bar' loud and clear...

The loathsome fishbag on stilts might circle a promising pond a couple
of times about 400 yards away, checking the whole area then appear to
disappear over the horizon... They will disappear if they have spotted
anything lurking, perhaps a cat, or fox is about...

Several minutes later, they will overfly it once or twice, gliding
quite slow, to bank and turn and seem to go away. Five minutes or so
they then come very slow, steady and at a low height from a completely
different angle as if to take by surprise any skulking entity...
hedgehopping, literally...

Should they spot one little thing that frets them, they will abort
landing...

They want the pond all to themselves, with no complications like dogs,
or people about...

Only then, when they are absolutely sure it's safe to plunder, will
they come in and land in a high place overlooking the pond. Perhaps a
chimney, or a small tree close to the pond.

Herons quite often explore ponds in gardens during times of poor
visibility, fog, at first light when their usual haunts have become
difficult, for example when floods have clouded waters, or when ice has
formed, the conditions for likely heron attacks can be predicted if you
keep an eye on the weather forecast...

When they have landed at a high vantage point overlooking the pond
area, they really take their time and look with those beady little dark
eyes, to make absolutely sure nothing is lurking before flapping to the
best landing spot close to the pond...

I say they, because it is not unusual for them to go about in pairs...

Should your pond be netted they will go to some lengths to try and get
within, finding or forcing any gap that they can... When they are
safely well within the net, that is quite a good time to, errr....

..=2E.surprise them

regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

n

  #13   Report Post  
Old 11-02-2005, 06:33 PM
Fishy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Heron season? What season? I've discovered that once a heron finds
your pond, he's always there, just waiting for his chance. I hadn't
seen ours in months. The pond finally thawed out. At dusk, what to my
wandering eyes should appear but a heron, standing in the middle of my
pond. I dashed to the basement to grab me net and flew like a spaz out
the door to bash plastic anchors into the frozen shore in the growing
dark. Of course, that night, the pond froze back over. Now, the net
can't be removed to get in (yes, I was meaning to get in this weekend)
unless it warms up a little more.

I have maybe half a dozen big (I mean 8+") goldfish left out of the 30
some that I had just this time last year. The heron got my oldest and
biggest goldfish, 10-14" last spring before I finally netted it. The
heron found my pond about a year ago, not having bothered with it from
1997 to 2003 at all except to stand next to it longingly (but never got
into until last year). Stupid me, if you'd asked me a year ago, I'd
have said my pond was heron-proof. Now, it's their playground (yes, we
had a loving pair).

Robyn
fishpondinfo.com

  #14   Report Post  
Old 12-02-2005, 01:05 AM
~ jan JJsPond.us
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The heron found my pond about a year ago, not having bothered with it from
1997 to 2003 at all except to stand next to it longingly (but never got
into until last year).


Kind of like watching the apple grow on the tree and turn red, weren't
they? ( ~ jan
~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~
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Is the uk.rec.gardening silly season over yet??? Pam Moore United Kingdom 1 08-01-2007 10:42 AM
Is the uk.rec.gardening silly season over yet??? Kaz United Kingdom 3 06-01-2007 12:01 PM
Is the uk.rec.gardening silly season over yet??? Leslie United Kingdom 0 05-01-2007 06:45 PM
Is the uk.rec.gardening silly season over yet??? Rupert \(W.Yorkshire\) United Kingdom 0 05-01-2007 01:53 PM


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