Newbie and frustrated
OK....
Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3 foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design Aquaclear" Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning, etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape. With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals. Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly considering adding them. HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae problem that is driving me to frustration. Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear" bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks. But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out there - any objective reviews?) |
"ebruvold" wrote in message oups.com... OK.... Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3 foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design Aquaclear" Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning, etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape. With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals. Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly considering adding them. HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae problem that is driving me to frustration. Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear" bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks. But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out there - any objective reviews?) A lot of us here will tell you that you should avoid using algacides, if at all possible because they can damage your aquatic plants, and the resulting dead algae will settle to the bottome, decompose, and add evern more nutrients to the water. You should be adding a product like aquazyme, which provides beneficial bacteria to your pond to help reduce the nutrient load. Adding more shade to the pond also helps. You can accomplish this with more water lillies, which will also use up those nutrients. You are having a problem with too high a nutrient load in your pond. You need an effective filtration system, either mechanical that you can clean, or biological (much preferred). I recommend that you read the information provided at this web site. It contains very valuable information, and should help you solve your problem: http://www.naturalsolutionsetc.com/g...ae-control.htm The keyword with garden ponds - patience. Don't rush things. Nature is on her own schedule. The key is to learn what that schedule is and how to facilitate it in a way that is beneficial to the flora and fauna of your pond. Whatever you do, don't clean or do partial water changes with straight tap water, and don't change all the water at one time. UV filtration (very expensive) will help with pea soup algae, but not with string algae, and may actually make the string algae problem worse. I also have a big problem with nuking pond water to solve what is essentially a biochemical imbalance in an ecosystem. |
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html Is there a filter for that pond? Which type is it? pA HREF="http://la.znet.com/~seannydinh/"http://la.znet.com/~seannydinh//A pMy lovely green water went away a week after installing a bigger TT filter. pebruvold wrote: blockquote TYPE=CITEOK.... pLive in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3 brfoot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed brby local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus br"Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design brAquaclear" pFollowed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning, bretc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than brwe have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into brthe pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous broccasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape. pWith warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals. brLillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more brpads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly brconsidering adding them. pHOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae brproblem that is driving me to frustration. pBeen spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear" brbacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is breasy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks. pBut not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a brdifference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should brI have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something brdifferent (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out brthere - any objective reviews?)/blockquote /html |
More information seems in order.
The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged and too soiled). The pond gets a LOT of morning shade and then afternoon and evening sun. I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond. What I am trying to figure out is how to make sense of ALL the products out on the market. There seem to be scores of different "bacteria" products. Are there any reviews???? Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-) |
"ebruvold" wrote in message oups.com... More information seems in order. The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged and too soiled). The pond gets a LOT of morning shade and then afternoon and evening sun. I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond. What I am trying to figure out is how to make sense of ALL the products out on the market. There seem to be scores of different "bacteria" products. Are there any reviews???? Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-) As advertized, your filter will not eliminate string algae. You should read these articles about filtration: http://www.practical-water-gardens.com/bioch0101.htm http://www.worldofwater.com/filtration.htm http://www.bestfish.com/sprngpnd.html http://www.hoerrnursery.com/GardenIn...tionBasics.cfm http://www.ponddoc.com/Topics/Filtration.htm And about the beneficial bacteria, if you are using it, have some patience. These guys take a while (usually about a month) to get firmly established in your pond. |
Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3 foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design Aquaclear" Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning, etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape. With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals. Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly considering adding them. HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae problem that is driving me to frustration. Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear" bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks. But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out there - any objective reviews?) Patience is the single, most important thing with a new pond - it takes literally months for it to completely settle down, but you are on the right track with the bacteria supplements you are using and trying to get as much shade as possible on the water surface with lily-pads - ~70% would be best. There is no use tripling the bacteria as it will only "spike" the bacteria level in your pond and filter up to a certain point, depending on 02 levels in your pond water. Also don't clean out your filter as it needs the bacteria to build up in it for it to work biologically (without being said, your filter is running 24/7, right?) As your lilies spread, your string algae will abate and as the bacteria in your filter grows and catches up with the nutrients in your pond feeding the suspended algae, your water will clear Good luck Gale :~) |
"ebruvold" wrote in message oups.com... snip But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out there - any objective reviews?) snip A few thoughts... 1. Dead algae is food for new algae 2. I would never put any algaecide into my pond with the exception of #3 3. You could try the blue dye tabs, which tint the water and cut down on algae by starving them of sunlight. 4. Draining and refilling, is just going to give the algae a nice new batch of water to work in and probably stress everything else. I wouldn't do it. 5. String algae can't be helped, just scoop it out. 6. More plants. Plants out compete algae 7. Patience 8. Get rid of your fish and chlorinate the pond...so no algae plants or other critters will ever call the pond home. -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com http://www.iheartmypond.com Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516. It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click! |
It is possible to have a clear pond without using any chemicals
at all. (which is a relief for those of us whose brains freeze at '1 teaspoon per gallon') Our ponds are nutrient heavy. We have WAY too many fish in our ponds than Mother Nature recommends. Like the other posters recommended higher order plants are the way to use up the extra nutrients. Ways to cut down on nutrients is to cull the fish population, stop feeding the fish as much and use a filter to screen and convert fish waste. Fresh water is a nutrient for algae and you've had more than your share of fresh water this year. There isn't much you can do about that. Algae and string algae are very efficent at growing when the higher order plants are still waking up. Spring is usually a time when ponds will suffer an algae bloom. I use watercress in the spring to get ahead of the algae. I place stems of it (from the grocery store) under a rock (one stem to a rock) in my waterfall. The stuff loves fast running, cool water. It spreads but the roots are shallow and brittle and it is very easy to rip up. I have watercress that wintered over, frozen in the ice, that is growing like crazy right now and the only other plant growth out there is two inch high iris. The problem with algaecides is that they make lots of suddenly dead algae which feeds the next algae bloom. Your pond isn't old enough to need cleaning yet, but dead plant matter, fish waste, mulm, muck and crud are also good food for algae. And finally sun. Floating plants will shade the water, like lily pads. Water hyacinth are good floaters in that they reproduce like crazy. In zone 7, where we are, they don't survive the winter so have to be taken out as with their demise they will turn into decaying plants (more algae food). Patience is always helpful. Frustrating, but helpful. It takes a while to get to know your system and how to manage it. good luck! kathy :-) |
On 15 Mar 2005 21:28:21 -0800, "ebruvold" wrote:
Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3 foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design Aquaclear" San Diego Koi Club. http://www.koiclubsandiego.org/index.html Reference Library/Green Water I've been reading Norm's article on Green Water for a number of years and it is has become better information than the first time. Sorry I don't have an immediate and absolute solution to your problem, but you will overcome it, just keep working and be patient. Regards, Hal |
ebruvold wrote:
The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged and too soiled). Note how "Biofalls" and "Contractor" appear so close together... I'm not much of a fan of contractor-based solutions. Biofalls just seem to me to be another way to separate recreational ponders from large amounts of money. I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond. .... Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-) Frankly, short of a UV treatment system, I doubt you'll ever see the bottom - and it's not something I'd aim for. It's unnatural, and it limits the hiding places for fish. Being able to see a couple of feet into the pond is good enough for me. -- derek |
ebruvold wrote:
The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged and too soiled). Note how "Biofalls" and "Contractor" appear so close together... I'm not much of a fan of contractor-based solutions. Biofalls just seem to me to be another way to separate recreational ponders from large amounts of money. I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond. .... Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-) Frankly, short of a UV treatment system, I doubt you'll ever see the bottom - and it's not something I'd aim for. It's unnatural, and it limits the hiding places for fish. Being able to see a couple of feet into the pond is good enough for me. -- derek |
Isn't 6 Koi a lot for an 800-1000 gallon pond? I thought the basic rule is
1000 gallons for the first koi and 100 gallons for each additional one? Anne "ebruvold" wrote in message oups.com... OK.... Live in San Diego. Had a pond installed last September. About a 3 foot rise waterfall into a pond of about 800-1000 gallons. Installed by local contractor. Gave us Koi (6) and some water lillies plus "Aquascape Designs String Algea Buster (SAB)" and "Aquascape Design Aquaclear" Followed all directions rigorously in respect to bacteria, cleaning, etc. But as you may have heard, southern california had more rain than we have had in the last 100 years. So a fair amount of run off into the pond and outright rain. Had to pump out water on numerous occasions and other times simply let it overflow in to landscape. With warmer weather planted some more lilles and some marginals. Lillies going well. I have about 10-15% surface area covered and more pads every day. I do not have any "bottom plants" but strongly considering adding them. HOWEVER, I have a serious string and single cell (green water) algae problem that is driving me to frustration. Been spiking (triple the dose every day) my pond with both "clear" bacteria and SAB. Hand cleaning out every day the string algae that is easy to get out and actually pulling some off from individual rocks. But not sure it is helping! Or at least I can not noticeably see a difference. Is my only hope to drain the pond and start over? Should I have patience with the product I am using? Should I try something different (there seem to be a huge number of different concoctions out there - any objective reviews?) |
"Anne Lurie" wrote in message om... Isn't 6 Koi a lot for an 800-1000 gallon pond? I thought the basic rule is 1000 gallons for the first koi and 100 gallons for each additional one? ================== It's enough if they're young koi and there's good filtration, partial water changes and aeration. -- McKoi.... the frugal ponder... "To persevere in one's duty and be silent, is the best answer to calumny." ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
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html I've been to Aquascape site, yet couldn't find any information regarding what went inside the biofall. If you worry about killing the beneficial bacteria, try cleaning half of the filter. Then clean the other half 2 weeks later. The other option is to stop feeding the fish, and clean the filter now. Resume feeding 2 weeks later. pMy pond had a lot of plants, yet it had pea soup water. It cleared once my better filter started to function. I had those same green water in an outdoor aquarium. It remained green until I put in some Water Hyacinth. Plants alone did not clear the water, the same could be said about filter. pDon't feel too bad. People with superior filters still have problem with pea soup. They still need to resort to using UV filter to remove it. If you want a quick solution, get one installed. pAs for bacteria products, I have no idea. I've never used them. pebruvold wrote: blockquote TYPE=CITEMore information seems in order. pThe filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put brit in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the brbenefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the brfilter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged brand too soiled). pThe pond gets a LOT of morning shade and then afternoon and evening brsun. pI am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear brbacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which bras I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water brcourse. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond. brWhat I am trying to figure out is how to make sense of ALL the products brout on the market. There seem to be scores of different "bacteria" brproducts. Are there any reviews???? pWoudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-)/blockquote /html |
They are LITTLE koi - I think the biggest is about 5-6 inches. Haven't
really fed them much for about 2 weeks. Figured there was enough stuff for them to munch on in the pondDid give them a bit today - they gobbled up the food quickly. |
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... ebruvold wrote: The filter is an Aquascape "BIOFALLS" filter. The contractor who put it in suggested not to clean that often as it would kill off the benefial bacteria. I believe the recommendation was to change out the filter once a year. It looks generally clean (or at least not clogged and too soiled). Note how "Biofalls" and "Contractor" appear so close together... I'm not much of a fan of contractor-based solutions. Biofalls just seem to me to be another way to separate recreational ponders from large amounts of money. I am using supposedly beneficial bacteria - the Aquascape Clear bacteria plus SAB enyme. I haven't tried (but thinking) Barley (which as I understand it I can place either in the pond or in the water course. I am tyring to get the lillies to cover at least 60% of pond. ... Woudl just like to see the bottom of my pond at some point ;-) Frankly, short of a UV treatment system, I doubt you'll ever see the bottom - and it's not something I'd aim for. It's unnatural, and it limits the hiding places for fish. Being able to see a couple of feet into the pond is good enough for me. -- derek Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom of my pond (45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the bottom? lol |
"George" wrote in message news:wT9_d.144483$4q6.122051@attbi_s01... snip Don't feel too bad. People with superior filters still have problem with pea soup. They still need to resort to using UV filter to remove it. If you want a quick solution, get one installed. Hmmm. If the filter is so superior, why do they have pea green soup for water? I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three years ago. I haven't had it since. As for bacteria products, I have no idea. I've never used them. They work, and work well. I disagree. I get an algae bloom EVERY YEAR. When the VF takes off, the water clears within days. My neighbor, who uses a biofilter only, added a VF last year, and had clear water for the first time. I am not anti-UV, I just don't have a need for it. -- BV Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com http://www.iheartmypond.com Help IHeartMyPond.com, by doing all of your eBay shopping via our eBay Affiliate Link: http://www.kqzyfj.com/click-1609574-10357516. It doesn't cost you anything, but an extra click! |
I use a veggie filter and can always see the bottom of mine also. My
pond is 3 foot deep. Oh by the way this is rebeljoe on someone elses box. |
George wrote:
Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom of my pond (45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the bottom? lol Perhaps :-) I don't believe in UV either, but I have never expected to see the bottom of my pond (about the same depth, perhaps a little more). I can see it just fine in the early spring, and occasionally in the summer, but algae's a normal part of a pond. It doesn't bother me. -- derek |
"George" wrote in message news:rTl_d.79368$Ze3.26190@attbi_s51... "Derek Broughton" wrote in message ... George wrote: Hmmm. I've never used UV and I've always been able to see the bottom of my pond (45" deep). If I use a UV filter, will I be able to see 'past' the bottom? lol Perhaps :-) I don't believe in UV either, but I have never expected to see the bottom of my pond (about the same depth, perhaps a little more). I can see it just fine in the early spring, and occasionally in the summer, but algae's a normal part of a pond. It doesn't bother me. -- derek I can usually see the bootm of mine pretty much all year round. I truly believe in biofiltration. It works. ======================================= We also use heavy biofiltration but every spring we still get an algae bloom for a week or more. I wish I could add more plants to the larger pond but the koi just rip them out of their pots or knock them over. Only the water iris and water bamboo survive them. The other plants are in the settling tank/plant filter. -- McKoi.... the frugal ponder... Zone 6 TN ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o |
"Sean Dinh" wrote in message ... They are superior in term of ammonia and nitrite removal. There is still nitrate left. George wrote: Hmmm. If the filter is so superior, why do they have pea green soup for water? I only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three years ago. I haven't had it since. I might experiment with a possible nitrate solution this year. If you're a marine aquarium buff, and I am, then you know that everyone is moving completely away from artificial filtration and moving to natural filters. What this means is getting rid of all the foam, bioballs, and most any other filter media that convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. What is substituted for these are a refugium (garden pond people are already doing this with veggie filters), live rock, and thick sea sand on the bottom with a current flowing over it. The idea of using the sand substrate for filtration (without using the terrible undergravel filters that suck up all the gunk in the tank and then let it decompose on the bottom, adding to the nitrate problem) is that sea sand acts as a nitrate filter, because the water flow through it is very slow compared to other filters. With a current flowing over top of the sand (as you wold have in a natural stream), a slow current is induced in the sand. So it allows for the growth bacteria that will utilize the nitrates. These bacteria also grow in the live rock. I know that everyone is against placing rock or any substrate in the bottom of their ponds for various reasons. What I plan to do is to change the setup on my main filter by pulling it completely out of the pond (the filter material is all from porous rock). This will allow more room for the fish to move around in. It will also allow me to build a fresh water reef on top of an 8 inch coarse, dark sand base. The final modification will be to divert some of the outflow from the primary filter to allow it to flow slowly over the sand base and more strongly across the reef structure (this might involve getting a bigger pump, or a second pump). It works very well for sal****er tanks, so I'm strongly considering trying this method. |
4. Draining and refilling, is just going to give the algae a nice new batch
of water to work in and probably stress everything else. I wouldn't do it. I think this one is a total myth, more a YMMV. Every year I have to totally drain my lily pond to get the baby fish and muck out. So all new (treated) water goes in. That was a week ago, still perfectly clear. Course I started the filter prior to the clean out so there would be some bio-bugs in it. I gently rinse the sides, but leave the fuzz algae attached.... and the clincher, there are no fish in the pond, just the frogs doing their thing (which feeds the bacteria in the filter). Now sometimes I have gotten Suspended Algae in this pond, but it had nothing to do with the new water, it happened later in the summer when the pH went sky high. 9.0+ and I'd over harvested some string algae (at the time I didn't have much fuzz algae). The lily pads were thick, but once that pH goes over 9.0 it becomes very difficult for the higher plants to remove the nutrients. I'm hoping this year the fuzz algae has a good hold, so far it is looking good. I also added a pound of baking soda from the start. ~ jan See my ponds and filter design: http://users.owt.com/jjspond/ ~Keep 'em Wet!~ Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a To e-mail see website |
"ebruvold" wrote in message
They are LITTLE koi - I think the biggest is about 5-6 inches. Haven't really fed them much for about 2 weeks. Figured there was enough stuff for them to munch on in the pondDid give them a bit today - they gobbled up the food quickly. In about three years, they will be MUCH BIGGER. In 3 years, so will his next pond. ;) (Nobody can have just one!) ~ jan ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~ |
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:04:53 -0800, Sean Dinh
wrote: Sean, you need to turn off your html. ~ jan !doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en" html They are superior in term of ammonia and nitrite removal. There is still nitrate left. pGeorge wrote: blockquote TYPE=CITEHmmm. If the filter is so superior, why do they have pea green soup for water? brI only had this problem once, immediately after I set up my pond three years brago. I haven't had it since./blockquote /html ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~ |
I did. I found that out earlier this morning when I was
messing around with settings. I didn't realize about that before. "~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote: Sean, you need to turn off your html. ~ jan |
"Sean Dinh" wrote in message ... Hi George, the only major problem I see atm is hydrogen sulfide gas. You would need a serious degassing tower to remove it fast. I have rocks and kitty litter in my pond. I'm hoping the 3 Dojo Loach are digging around there to reduce hydrogen sulfide gas accumulation. As for nitrate reduction, the simplest is to use a 4' tall Trickle Tower outside the pond. Since you don't have any plants in your pond, you won't worry about TT being too efficient in removing nitrate. Only people like me worry about having too little nitrate for our water plants. I do have plants in my pond. I have lillies, irises, and cattails. I don't have room for a veggie filter. Trickle towers have been shown to produce more nitrates than they digest (they aren't actually designed to digest nitrates anyway, contrary to some advertisements seen on aquarium supplier web sites. They were designed for CO2-O2 gas exchange and to provide a habitat for nitrite and ammonia reducing bacteria, which tend to convert these compounds into nitrates), which is why marine aquarium enthusiasts are moving completely away from them and any mechanical filtration. As for hydrogen sulphide gas buildup, it is true that this could be an issue. However, if oxygenated water is blown over the sand bed and around the reef, and one periodically stirs it up, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. It doesn't seem to be a problem in marine aquariums, which tend to produce more gases than freshwater environments. The key is not to let the sand bed go stagnent. Since the bacteria that will be living in the sand bed and in the water will break down any detritus very rapidly, and because sand is very porous , any gases produced will out-gas and be washed out by the water flowing over the sand at a slow rate and be exchanged in the main filter and on the waterfall with oxygenated water. In addition, the sand will become a habitat for lots of critters which will no doubt continuously bore into it. This is good, since it will disturb the bed and help keep it oxygenated. In addition, since many of these critters reproduce rapidly, the fish will root around in the sand bed looking for a tasty meal, disturbing the sand bed even more, adding oxygen to the sand, and reducing the cost of fish food. All of this is in theory, of course, since I don't know of anyone who has tried this yet for garden fish ponds. This is why it is an experiment. I recently (2 months ago)added a refugium to my marine aquarium (which has macroalgae, live sand, and losts of snails and copopods in it) and added an additional two inches of live sand to the main tank (for a total of five inches). The water in my reef tank has remained nitrate-free ever since. The trick is going to be how to evenly distribute the oxygenated water over the sand without causing it to become suspended in the water and pile up somewhere. I'm working on a model for that right now. George wrote: I might experiment with a possible nitrate solution this year. If you're a marine aquarium buff, and I am, then you know that everyone is moving completely away from artificial filtration and moving to natural filters. What this means is getting rid of all the foam, bioballs, and most any other filter media that convert ammonia and nitrites to nitrates. What is substituted for these are a refugium (garden pond people are already doing this with veggie filters), live rock, and thick sea sand on the bottom with a current flowing over it. The idea of using the sand substrate for filtration (without using the terrible undergravel filters that suck up all the gunk in the tank and then let it decompose on the bottom, adding to the nitrate problem) is that sea sand acts as a nitrate filter, because the water flow through it is very slow compared to other filters. With a current flowing over top of the sand (as you wold have in a natural stream), a slow current is induced in the sand. So it allows for the growth bacteria that will utilize the nitrates. These bacteria also grow in the live rock. I know that everyone is against placing rock or any substrate in the bottom of their ponds for various reasons. What I plan to do is to change the setup on my main filter by pulling it completely out of the pond (the filter material is all from porous rock). This will allow more room for the fish to move around in. It will also allow me to build a fresh water reef on top of an 8 inch coarse, dark sand base. The final modification will be to divert some of the outflow from the primary filter to allow it to flow slowly over the sand base and more strongly across the reef structure (this might involve getting a bigger pump, or a second pump). It works very well for sal****er tanks, so I'm strongly considering trying this method. |
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"Elaine T" wrote in message om... George wrote: "Sean Dinh" wrote in message ... TT and nitrate reduction... http://tinyurl.com/4hlhx 10 ppm is not acceptable in reef aquariums, and I strongly suspect it does little good in large freshwater systems (such as garden ponds) with no/inadequate plants to remove it. Hence, the algae blooms. In a sand bed that uses a Jaubert plenum, a porous plenum is constructed beneath the bed with a void space below the bed that is filled with water, anaerobic bacteria form in the bottom depths of the substrate and in the water below. As anaerobic bacteria cultivate, they remove nitrates. Anaerobic action produces a fair amount of heat. The heat warms the water layer below the gravel. The warmer water flows upwards, displacing cooler water above the gravel. This action moves water through the plenum at very slow rates. The slow movement of water through the gravel helps to prevent dangerous hydrogen-sulfide gases from forming in the plenum. The deep gravel bed also provides a home for burrowing motile invertebrates which feed on solid organic mulm and detritus. The idea here is to move away from systems that required heavy maintenance to prevent nitraqtes from getting too high. Trickle filters work great in removing nitrogen compounds over a limited time period before they must be maintained (i.e., cleaning pre-filters, etc). Sand beds with a Jaubert plenum usually never have to be cleaned because, if it is properly constructed, there is no build up. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...?article_id=21 Jaubert plenums have been tried in large FW planted tanks shortly after they became popular in sal****er. It is much harder to get a population of denitrifying bacteria in FW that does not include sulfur reducing bacteria and generally attempts at denitrification in FW crash and burn. Sulfur reducing bacteria establish in the plenum, poison the water, and fish start showing all sorts of bizarre diseases in what otherwise seems to be a healthy system. -- __ Elaine T __ __' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__ Do you have a link to any papers on this? I found a web site this evening that describes the set up and it seems to suggest that it works very well, at least in freshwater aquariums. It also recommended to use 2-3 mm diameter gravel instead of sand. Since we are talking about a lot more water, I am considering using even larger gravel (probably something slightly smaller than peah gravel). I've also read elsewhere that fears of crashing and burning are unfounded if it is done properly. Of course, like any experiment, I'll have to monitor it. Sulphur-reducing bacteria could become a problem if the substrate becomes completely anoxic. But most sulpur-reducing bacteria are anoxic. The idea of using a live gravel bed in a garden pond must take into considerations all of the needs of the bateria that will live there. De-nitrifying bacteria are anoxic, while ammonia reducing and nitrite-reducing bacteria are aerobic. The idea is to get all three types growing in the same substrate. So can we expect these three bacteria to live viably together? The answer is yes, IF oxygentated water is induced to flow just above the gravel (parallel to it), which will induce flow/exchange within the gravel, but at a low rate. I suspect that my hogs (fish) will also root around in it enough looking for food that it will get enough oxygenation. But I plan to come up with a way to create the current flow a few inches above the gravel. I already have a very thin layer of gravel on the bottom (I had extra gravel when I built my biofilter, and I wanted to add a little color to the bottom of the pond), and they do root around in what I already have there. But I will certainly take your advice at heart before I make any final decisions. Thanks for the advice. Oh, and after reading that article, and your advice, I will probably lose the plenum and just build the substrate right on the bottom. Here is the link to the site I found: http://www.athiel.com/lib/lg-fw.html Here is another one about gravel filtration (as opposed to undergravel filtration): http://www.athiel.com/lib/ugfilterarticle.htm Just read the part about gravel filtration. |
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message ... Cement blocks like pavers or cinder blocks? Definitely not cinder (I don't think).... more like cement block, but they have more holes, decorative? You can see them at my website by clicking on *Lily Pond Photos* I've looked at your site before, but had forgotten the Lilly Ponds. Very attractive, but I see how they might continue to leach with all the decorative area. But after 5 years, I would think the concrete would have aged enough. I would have assumed that anything underwater would have sealed over and anything above would have aged sufficiently. Maybe the acid washing is keeping the blocks porous and the leeching continues. Could be. I quit putting acid in, added 4 lbs. of baking soda and then did 4-6 water changes of 20-25% over 10 days (this was recommended by the experts on the KHA board) it worked. Plants were happy after that. Frogs never were bothered, amazingly. ~ jan Oh, the acid went in the water. Still, isn't acid etching what one does to open the pores of concrete for adhesion of various coatings? But, you obviously know what you're doing and how to correct the problem if it continues. http://users.owt.com/jjspond/ |
Could be. I quit putting acid in, added 4 lbs. of baking soda and then did
4-6 water changes of 20-25% over 10 days (this was recommended by the experts on the KHA board) it worked. Plants were happy after that. Frogs never were bothered, amazingly. ~ jan Oh, the acid went in the water. Still, isn't acid etching what one does to open the pores of concrete for adhesion of various coatings? But, you obviously know what you're doing and how to correct the problem if it continues. I can only hope (I know what I'm doing) some days it's definitely questionable. ;o) ~ jan ~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~ |
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