Don't install bottom drains.

Why? 2 main reasons:

1. You have to cut a hole in the bottom of the rubber liner to fit the
drain pipe. No matter how well you plan this and use the top of the
line sealants, it will leak. Maybe not in the first 2-3 years, but no
matter the claims of sealants, they expand and shrink as the
temperature changes and do not change exactly at the same rate as the
rubber liner. Over time this connection fails. If you give an extra
tightening turn or two to make the seal tighter you are actually
pushing the sealant completely out of the space and make the lifespan
of the seal weaker. Once you get a leak in the bottom of the pond then
there is a whole list of bad things that can happen. Why cut a hole in
a perfectly good liner that will last for 25 years or more?

2. The holes in the bottom drain cover plate get clogged up with leaves
and debris. Let's say that the wind blows a plastic bag into your pond
and then the bag eventually falls to the bottom and obstructs the
drain. Now your water pump is sucking into a vacuum and the pump will
burn out. You can avoid this by installing 2 bottom drains to divert
any negative pressure from creating a vacuum, but now you have 2
potential places for a leak. Also God forbid, but let's say a child is
wading in the pond and slips into the deep end where the drain is. If
his bare leg comes up to the drain it can create a very tight holding
force and actually prevent him from coming up for air. The suction
pressure is so great that even a strong man would need to struggle to
break loose.

We have found that for residential installations the Savio skimmer
http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_products_pond_skimmers.htm works best. As a
matter of fact we won't even offer anything other than that for sale on
our website because we don't want anyone to use inferior products. We
have tested virtually every skimmer on the market and we are abosultely
convinced that the Savio is the best unit available. It does not need a
bottom drain.

You can visit your pond once a week and scoop out anything that has
settled to the bottom and be done with it in 5 minutes or less.

wrote:

Don't install bottom drains.

Why? 2 main reasons:

1. You have to cut a hole in the bottom of the rubber liner to fit the
drain pipe. No matter how well you plan this and use the top of the
line sealants, it will leak. Maybe not in the first 2-3 years, but no
matter the claims of sealants, they expand and shrink as the
temperature changes and do not change exactly at the same rate as the
rubber liner. Over time this connection fails.

Do you have _any_ evidence to back this up? Consider that the average
toilet seal, generally a much weaker seal than a good gasket in the bottom
of a pond, can last thirty years...

2. The holes in the bottom drain cover plate get clogged up with leaves
and debris. Let's say that the wind blows a plastic bag into your pond
and then the bag eventually falls to the bottom and obstructs the
drain. Now your water pump is sucking into a vacuum and the pump will
burn out.

That can happen. I'm not quite sure how it can be avoided with _any_ pump
though. No matter what system you use, the pump has an intake that can be
clogged.

Also God forbid, but let's say a child is
wading in the pond and slips into the deep end where the drain is. If
his bare leg comes up to the drain it can create a very tight holding
force and actually prevent him from coming up for air. The suction
pressure is so great that even a strong man would need to struggle to
break loose.

Oh, please. Again, that's no different for any pump, but you're talking
about swimming pool-sized pumps. The typical 5000gph pond pump is not
that strong.

We have found that for residential installations the Savio skimmer
http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_products_pond_skimmers.htm works best.

Yeah. Just more commercial spam. In fact, most people who use bottom
drains recommend a skimmer too.

You can visit your pond once a week and scoop out anything that has
settled to the bottom and be done with it in 5 minutes or less.

The whole point of a skimmer is that it should _prevent_ things settling to
the bottom.
--
derek

On 6 May 2005 02:14:34 -0700, wrote:

Don't install bottom drains.

Why? 2 main reasons:

1. You have to cut a hole in the bottom of the rubber liner to fit the
drain pipe. No matter how well you plan this and use the top of the
line sealants, it will leak. Maybe not in the first 2-3 years, but no
matter the claims of sealants, they expand and shrink as the
temperature changes and do not change exactly at the same rate as the
rubber liner. Over time this connection fails. If you give an extra
tightening turn or two to make the seal tighter you are actually
pushing the sealant completely out of the space and make the lifespan
of the seal weaker. Once you get a leak in the bottom of the pond then
there is a whole list of bad things that can happen. Why cut a hole in
a perfectly good liner that will last for 25 years or more?

I strong disagree. In my 10 years in this hobby, I've yet to hear of a
properly installed tetra bottom drain leaking. A bottom uptake makes all
the difference in keeping a pond clean and maintenance easy.

2. The holes in the bottom drain cover plate get clogged up with leaves
and debris. Let's say that the wind blows a plastic bag into your pond
and then the bag eventually falls to the bottom and obstructs the
drain. Now your water pump is sucking into a vacuum and the pump will
burn out. You can avoid this by installing 2 bottom drains to divert
any negative pressure from creating a vacuum, but now you have 2
potential places for a leak. Also God forbid, but let's say a child is
wading in the pond and slips into the deep end where the drain is. If
his bare leg comes up to the drain it can create a very tight holding
force and actually prevent him from coming up for air. The suction
pressure is so great that even a strong man would need to struggle to
break loose.

Only if it is an improperly done bottom drain without the bell top, and
bottom drains should be used in conjunction with a skimmer. Only an idiot
would put in such a drain (descripted above) in a fish pond that would suck
in small children. What do you think would happen to the fish? If that's
what you use for an argument against, it is really weak. Not to mention the
whole "no bottom drain" argument is against everything Koi USA, AKCA & KHA
teach.... and they aren't marketing reps.

We have found that for residential installations the Savio skimmer
snip the spam

You can visit your pond once a week and scoop out anything that has
settled to the bottom and be done with it in 5 minutes or less.

If one is only visiting their pond once a week, they don't have time to be
ponding, with or without bottom drains. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:

If one is only visiting their pond once a week, they don't have time to be
ponding, with or without bottom drains. ~ jan

LOL. Why didn't I think of that? :-)
--
derek

This is nothing more than ill-conceived spam.

You can betcherass I won't be visiting this dipwit's site.



On 6 May 2005 02:14:34 -0700, wrote:

Don't install bottom drains.

Why? 2 main reasons:

1. You have to cut a hole in the bottom of the rubber liner to fit the
drain pipe. No matter how well you plan this and use the top of the
lin.

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody...I should have been more specific..." - Lily Tomlin

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

Derek Broughton wrote:
wrote:

Don't install bottom drains.

Why? 2 main reasons:

1. You have to cut a hole in the bottom of the rubber liner to fit
the
drain pipe. No matter how well you plan this and use the top of the
line sealants, it will leak. Maybe not in the first 2-3 years, but
no
matter the claims of sealants, they expand and shrink as the
temperature changes and do not change exactly at the same rate as
the
rubber liner. Over time this connection fails.

Do you have _any_ evidence to back this up? Consider that the
average
toilet seal, generally a much weaker seal than a good gasket in the
bottom
of a pond, can last thirty years...

If you are referring to the wax ring on the toilet base, that is a
static gravity seal and not subject to constant pressure. There is
nothing more aggravating that to drain your pond for spring or fall
cleanout and find that a leaking bottom drain has saturated the earth
with water. That water then causes the rubber liner to have huge
pockets of trapped water that bubble up the liner and cannot be fixed
without pulling the entire liner out and pumping the water out of the
hole and resealing the drain and fitting the liner again. DO NOT USE
BOTTOM DRAINS WITH LINERS

If you are referring to the wax ring on the toilet base, that is a
static gravity seal and not subject to constant pressure.

A filter set-up to AKCA recommendations is also via gravity, not pressure.

There is nothing more aggravating that to drain your pond for spring or fall
cleanout and find that a leaking bottom drain has saturated the earth
with water.

With a bottom drain to filter, there is no need for spring or fall drain
and clean out of the pond. All muck is pulled into the pre-filter and is
removed from there. No need to disturb the fish, plants, beneficial
bacteria and fuzz algae.

That water then causes the rubber liner to have huge
pockets of trapped water that bubble up the liner and cannot be fixed
without pulling the entire liner out and pumping the water out of the
hole and resealing the drain and fitting the liner again. DO NOT USE
BOTTOM DRAINS WITH LINERS

The above is Aquascape Mantra. Those of us schooled in koi ponds try our
best to inform water garden hobbyists, that the infra-structure recommended
in koi ponds, make water gardens all the more low-maintenance.

So who do you believe? The marketing rep. or the certified KHA, schooled
and tested on AKCA recommended way? ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
www.jjspond.us

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Oh, and I should add. If one is scared to cut a hole in the liner? One can
always use the tetra vaccuum bottom drain and go over the side with siphon
effect. Just as I did my first pond, before I knew better. It isn't how I'd
recommend someone do it on a new pond, but it is better than no bottom
drain at all. Aquascape (or similar) has retrofitted and started putting
these connections into their skimmer boxes. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:
If you are referring to the wax ring on the toilet base, that is a
static gravity seal and not subject to constant pressure.
A filter set-up to AKCA recommendations is also via gravity, not
pressure.

Incorrect. A wax toilet base seal has only momentary water flow through
it when you flush the toilet. There is thousands of pounds of water
weight (pressure) sitting on top of the seal, constantly expanding and
shrinking as the temperature changes in your pond. This expansion and
contraction will result in a leak in the bottom drain fitting to pond
liner connection over time and make your life complicated.


There is nothing more aggravating that to drain your pond for spring
or fall
cleanout and find that a leaking bottom drain has saturated the
earth
with water.

With a bottom drain to filter, there is no need for spring or fall
drain
and clean out of the pond. All muck is pulled into the pre-filter and
is
removed from there. No need to disturb the fish, plants, beneficial
bacteria and fuzz algae.

This is not true. Even with a perfectly operating bottom drain you WILL
get an accumulation of muck and debris. That is unless you have NO
gravel or rocks on the pond liner bottom. If your pond liner is just
that, slick as a baby's butt, then a bottom drain that doesn't leak
will do what you say. However, most people have rocks and gravel in the
bottom of their ponds and there is no way in a heck a bottom drain is
going to keep your pond muck free. You need to perform spring and fall
maintenance. (Start-up and Winterization)


That water then causes the rubber liner to have huge
pockets of trapped water that bubble up the liner and cannot be
fixed
without pulling the entire liner out and pumping the water out of
the
hole and resealing the drain and fitting the liner again. DO NOT USE
BOTTOM DRAINS WITH LINERS

The above is Aquascape Mantra. Those of us schooled in koi ponds try
our
best to inform water garden hobbyists, that the infra-structure
recommended
in koi ponds, make water gardens all the more low-maintenance.

So who do you believe? The marketing rep. or the certified KHA,
schooled
and tested on AKCA recommended way? ~ jan

1. I am not a marketing rep. I am a 55 year old retired engineer from
the Federal Aviation Administration. I built the website for my
daughter and son-in-law at www.pondkoi.com. Go down to the opening
page, and look for their signatures (Wes and Melissa) and you will see
a link to a picture of my brand new granddaughter less than 1 month
old. "Sorry, 1st grandchild and couldn't help the shameless plug to
have you look at the most beautiful child in the World." This is a
family effort from educated and experienced people.

2. Wes (my son-in-law) has been building ponds for years and was
Aquasquapes #1 installer in the state of Michigan, and I think in the
top 10 in the USA before he decided to stop using some of the marginal
products they sell and ended his affiliation with them and went on his
own way. Yes, Aquascapes is the largest pond supplier and educator in
the business. Their growth has been phenomenal. Their 20 steps to
building a pond does not even suggest a bottom drain. However, as they
have grown, they are competing in the marketplace by cheapening the
quality, and offering some products that just won't work no matter
what you do with them.

3. We do not say that ALL bottom drain applications are bad. "Just
the ones using a pond liner." We even have a section devoted to other
people's ponds and we feature one with a bottom drain that belongs to
the President of the Midwest Pond and Koi Society.
http://www.pondkoi.com/opp_0001.htm Bob's system is very nice.

4. Basically, you are an Aquascapes trained clone and in time you will
learn on your own with trial and error how to do things right as you
mature in the business. Wes also started out like you, believing
Aquasacpes was God.

5. For the average home pond or watergarden you should not use a bottom
drain. If you want to use something other than a pond liner, then go
for it. Also be prepared to spend lots more money to get the job done.

Regards,

Paul
www.pondkoi.com

wrote:


~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:
If you are referring to the wax ring on the toilet base, that is a
static gravity seal and not subject to constant pressure.
A filter set-up to AKCA recommendations is also via gravity, not
pressure.

Incorrect. A wax toilet base seal has only momentary water flow through
it when you flush the toilet.

It does, however, have water on the seal at all times. My point was that
it's a _really_ flimsy - and primitive - seal, subject not only to
expansion and contraction, but considerable flex in the floor to which it
is mounted (usually), and yet they still rarely fail.

There is thousands of pounds of water
weight (pressure) sitting on top of the seal, constantly expanding and

Do you actually have a single clue? Pressure in a water column is _purely_
dependent on the height of the water column. In the case of a 3' deep
pond, approximately 6psi. Scary...

shrinking as the temperature changes in your pond. This expansion and
contraction will result in a leak in the bottom drain fitting to pond
liner connection over time and make your life complicated.

You parrot things you've been told without the slightest understanding of
the reality of the situation.

There is nothing more aggravating that to drain your pond for spring
or fall
cleanout and find that a leaking bottom drain has saturated the
earth
with water.

There's nothing more aggravating than draining your pond annually. Period.

This is not true. Even with a perfectly operating bottom drain you WILL
get an accumulation of muck and debris. That is unless you have NO
gravel or rocks on the pond liner bottom.

Well, duh? Why would you defeat the purpose of a filtration system like
that?

However, most people have rocks and gravel in the
bottom of their ponds

Care to take a survey? From many years on this group, I can assure you that
most of the regulars here do _not_ have rocks or gravel on the bottom.
Most of the people who ever did, rip it out.

That water then causes the rubber liner to have huge
pockets of trapped water that bubble up the liner and cannot be
fixed

That's the least of your problems. If it actually leaked, a pond installed
with proper drainage wouldn't have that problem - and you _should_ have
good drainage, otherwise you're going to get that water under the lining
when it rains, anyway. The leak would be the real problem. Nobody wants
to lose water at a steady rate.

The above is Aquascape Mantra. Those of us schooled in koi ponds try\ our
best to inform water garden hobbyists, that the infra-structure
recommended
in koi ponds, make water gardens all the more low-maintenance.

1. I am not a marketing rep. I am a 55 year old retired engineer from

You're plugging a business that hypes bad practices. That makes you a
marketing rep. (Congrats on the Grandchild).

2. Wes (my son-in-law) has been building ponds for years and was
Aquasquapes #1 installer in the state of Michigan, and I think in the
top 10 in the USA before he decided to stop using some of the marginal
products they sell and ended his affiliation with them and went on his
own way. Yes, Aquascapes is the largest pond supplier and educator in
the business.

Oh, please. Even when you say they have problems you repeat their
propaganda. They are the largest supplier and educator by their own
standards.

Their growth has been phenomenal. Their 20 steps to
building a pond does not even suggest a bottom drain.

So, let's take another survey. How many people here use Aquascapes?

4. Basically, you are an Aquascapes trained clone and in time you will
learn on your own with trial and error how to do things right as you
mature in the business. Wes also started out like you, believing
Aquasacpes was God.

Now, you've completely lost me. Jan is _definitely_ not an "Aquascapes
trained clone". As I said, you won't find much support for Aquascapes
systems here. You, otoh, are spouting way too much of their schtick.

5. For the average home pond or watergarden you should not use a bottom
drain. If you want to use something other than a pond liner, then go
for it. Also be prepared to spend lots more money to get the job done.

Try letting Wes do your talking. If he knows as much as you say he does, he
should have a clue. (Though most of us didn't need all those years to
figure out Aquascapes doesn't work).
--
derek

Incorrect. A wax toilet base seal has only momentary water flow through
it when you flush the toilet. There is thousands of pounds of water
weight (pressure) sitting on top of the seal, constantly expanding and
shrinking as the temperature changes in your pond. This expansion and
contraction will result in a leak in the bottom drain fitting to pond
liner connection over time and make your life complicated.

And just how do you think they've managed all these year with bottom drains
in swimming pools that are of the liner type?

This is not true. Even with a perfectly operating bottom drain you WILL
get an accumulation of muck and debris. That is unless you have NO
gravel or rocks on the pond liner bottom.

That's why it is recommended by the AKCA and many of us here (Google for
Rocks or Not) for not rocking a pond.

However, most people have rocks and gravel

Now this is where you are just plain inexperienced. Most people do not have
rocks, and many who did, don't have them now.

You need to perform spring and fall
maintenance. (Start-up and Winterization)

Without rocks, with a bottom drain, there is no needed for such muscle
straining work in the spring or winter. The work is only dealing with the
filter.

1. I am not a marketing rep. I am a 55 year old retired engineer from
the Federal Aviation Administration. I built the website for my
daughter and son-in-law at www.pondkoi.com.

You are representing a company (family owned) that deals in ponds, are you
not?

Regardless that your son-in-law doesn't work for Aquascape now, this design
is #1 because of great marketing and people seeing the beauty and not
realizing the high maintenance needed. My club informs people that they
MUST do the yearly recommended maintenance as they'll soon have a cesspool
with this design. If draining and power washing their pond yearly isn't
appealing, come on over to the AKCA way of doing it. They've been doing and
giving advice far, far longer than the Aquascape design has been in play.

One thing I will say about AS, they have assimilated a lot more people into
ponders, and this is a very good thing.

Congratulations on your first grandchild. I'm hoping my recently
married son will wait awhile (no matter how much I'd like one), as he's in
the Army, based at Ft.Hood and has already done a year in Iraq. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Hi Jan:
I know from past conversation that you really dont like ponds with rocks
in. But while I don't claim to be any kind of expert, nor do I object
to others making different pond design choices I do wish to offer my
data point to the discussion (besides it beats reading the toll posts)

I am 5 years into my pond experience with a pond lined bottom and sides
with with river rock. Our back yard does not get a lot of sun and the
water has always stayed clear. After 5 years I have never had to drain
& power wash the pond. Each rear I climb in and dig the rocks away to
check in several spots to see if any Mum is accumulating - Nil.
I am lucky I suspect to not get a lot of deciduous leaves in the pond.
The evergreen leaves get trapped by the skimmer before they can sink.

Anyway my pets seem to like their environment and it has been low
maintenance for me. Most of the problems I have had with the pond is
keeping the raccoon away.

Cheers.


~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
Regardless that your son-in-law doesn't work for Aquascape now, this design
is #1 because of great marketing and people seeing the beauty and not
realizing the high maintenance needed. My club informs people that they
MUST do the yearly recommended maintenance as they'll soon have a cesspool
with this design. If draining and power washing their pond yearly isn't
appealing, come on over to the AKCA way of doing it. They've been doing and
giving advice far, far longer than the Aquascape design has been in play.

Derek Broughton wrote:

Care to take a survey? From many years on this group, I can assure you that
most of the regulars here do _not_ have rocks or gravel on the bottom.
Most of the people who ever did, rip it out.

I took the gravel out of my pond only last week. I left a very small
amount in just to amuse the fish with something to mouth at and in the
process help swirl the bottom. This morning the water has never looked
clearer, the muck is now going to the filter where it's supposed to be
and not trapped in the gravel.

--
Andy

~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:
Incorrect. A wax toilet base seal has only momentary water flow
through
it when you flush the toilet. There is thousands of pounds of water
weight (pressure) sitting on top of the seal, constantly expanding
and
shrinking as the temperature changes in your pond. This expansion
and
contraction will result in a leak in the bottom drain fitting to
pond
liner connection over time and make your life complicated.

And just how do you think they've managed all these year with bottom
drains
in swimming pools that are of the liner type?

They were installed by professional crews that are properly trained.
Not by someone who wants a pond in their backyard and buys the
components and tries to build one themselves. You can only cut a hole
in a perfectly good liner ONCE. Not a practice I would advise to just
anyone. If you screw it up the project is done.


This is not true. Even with a perfectly operating bottom drain you
WILL
get an accumulation of muck and debris. That is unless you have NO
gravel or rocks on the pond liner bottom.

That's why it is recommended by the AKCA and many of us here (Google
for
Rocks or Not) for not rocking a pond.

However, most people have rocks and gravel

Not rocking a pond is a creepy sterile environment. If you just want to
eliminate maintenance fine then. I for one don't like to see a liner
when I look into the water and go to great lengths to hide it. See
pictu http://www.pondkoi.com/pond_gallery_008.htm#pondpic


Now this is where you are just plain inexperienced. Most people do
not have
rocks, and many who did, don't have them now.

You need to perform spring and fall
maintenance. (Start-up and Winterization)

Without rocks, with a bottom drain, there is no needed for such
muscle
straining work in the spring or winter. The work is only dealing with
the
filter.

It is very easy to put your fish in a kiddie pool for a few hours while
you drain your pond, rent a power washer (or buy one they are not that
expensive) and spray the rocks and gravel, then suck out the muck. A
very easy task that just needs to be done in the spring anyway.

1. I am not a marketing rep. I am a 55 year old retired engineer
from
the Federal Aviation Administration. I built the website for my
daughter and son-in-law at www.pondkoi.com.

You are representing a company (family owned) that deals in ponds,
are you
not?

I am not an employed marketing rep. I am a person who builds websites
and just happened to build one for my family members. Last I checked my
freedom to exchange topical information was still intact.


Regardless that your son-in-law doesn't work for Aquascape now, this
design
is #1 because of great marketing and people seeing the beauty and not
realizing the high maintenance needed. My club informs people that
they
MUST do the yearly recommended maintenance as they'll soon have a
cesspool
with this design. If draining and power washing their pond yearly
isn't
appealing, come on over to the AKCA way of doing it. They've been
doing and
giving advice far, far longer than the Aquascape design has been in
play.

You club is a good thing. You can gather people with diverse opinions
and share information. It is nice that you have a group of people to
network with. If your goal is to have NO pond structure maintenance
then you are on track. But you sacrifice the natural look of a gravel
and rocked in pond.


One thing I will say about AS, they have assimilated a lot more
people into
ponders, and this is a very good thing.

Congratulations on your first grandchild. I'm hoping my recently
married son will wait awhile (no matter how much I'd like one), as
he's in
the Army, based at Ft.Hood and has already done a year in Iraq. ~
jan


Thanks for the congrats. I applaud your son for his service to his
country and wish you and him well.

wrote:


~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:

And just how do you think they've managed all these year with
bottom drains in swimming pools that are of the liner type?

They were installed by professional crews that are properly trained.
Not by someone who wants a pond in their backyard and buys the
components and tries to build one themselves. You can only cut a hole
in a perfectly good liner ONCE. Not a practice I would advise to just
anyone. If you screw it up the project is done.

Not so. Seam tape works great. Plus, EPDM makes for better seals than
swimming pool PVC anyway.

Not rocking a pond is a creepy sterile environment.

Do you even _have_ a pond? Once you've got the plants established, and a
good coat of fuzzy algae on the liner, you can't tell whether there's rocks
or not. It's not at all creepy, and about as far from sterile as you can
get.

Without rocks, with a bottom drain, there is no needed for
such muscle
straining work in the spring or winter. The work is only
dealing with the filter.

It is very easy to put your fish in a kiddie pool for a few hours while
you drain your pond, rent a power washer (or buy one they are not that
expensive) and spray the rocks and gravel, then suck out the muck. A
very easy task that just needs to be done in the spring anyway.

I'm sorry, but you're barking mad! (1) It's really not a good idea to
stress your fish in the spring, when their immune systems are at their
worst. (2) However easy you think it is, it's a lot more work than
cleaning out a filter - my pond: 5000 gallons; my filter: 200 (and no
important fish). (3) I've never have the kind of muck in my pond that
requires such trouble, anyway.

I am not an employed marketing rep. I am a person who builds websites
and just happened to build one for my family members. Last I checked my
freedom to exchange topical information was still intact.

Whatever your title, you're acting as a marketing rep, and spreading bad
advice to boot.

If your goal is to have NO pond structure maintenance
then you are on track. But you sacrifice the natural look of a gravel
and rocked in pond.

I never built a pond so that I could look at its bottom. It's the stuff
between there and the water surface that's worth looking at.
--
derek