Cass wrote:

In article , Regina
wrote:

Cass wrote:

Regina wrote:

Cut back harder! I know
I need to cut back harder.

I BR'd Pierre de Ronsard and left the canes about 3 feet, and it's
doing fine too. BR'd 2 Westerlands, one cut the canes back to 15
inches, one with canes cut back to 24 inches. All fine.

Fine like strong new basals? (photo?) See, that's what I want, a
little urban renewal.

Sure, I'll take pix a little later in the day.

Cool.

Fine as in didn't die,
now leafing out and growing new basals.

I love new basals, once they've survived the life threats of hard
freeze, wind and dogs.

And I am finding that once that is done, they need less and less time
from me, which then of course fully justifies adding more roses. Here's
a zen question for you - can one aspire to be Mack and not prune?

One can, but some roses like the abuse.

The question is, which ones, and how often? Not yearly, surely?

Dainty Bess clung to her wood today like a mother to her child. And so
did Mister Lincoln, where I'm cutting two feet over my head. Mrs.
Oakley Fisher told me I could only cut off her split ends, then sent me
packing.

Regina

In article , Regina
wrote:

Cass wrote:
wrote:

Cass wrote:

Regina wrote:

Cut back harder! I know
I need to cut back harder.

I BR'd Pierre de Ronsard and left the canes about 3 feet, and it's
doing fine too. BR'd 2 Westerlands, one cut the canes back to 15
inches, one with canes cut back to 24 inches. All fine.

Fine like strong new basals? (photo?) See, that's what I want, a
little urban renewal.

Sure, I'll take pix a little later in the day.

Cool.

Fine as in didn't die,
now leafing out and growing new basals.

I love new basals, once they've survived the life threats of hard
freeze, wind and dogs.

And I am finding that once that is done, they need less and less time
from me, which then of course fully justifies adding more roses. Here's
a zen question for you - can one aspire to be Mack and not prune?

One can, but some roses like the abuse.

The question is, which ones, and how often? Not yearly, surely?

Not me. I watch. If it grew well once, it can do it again, right? So I
start by removing some older canes. But on a short rose like Sunsprite
(mine was only 3-1/2' tall), that just doesn't produce enough of a
change in a single season. Why not a whack every 3 or 4 years? I also
whacked an Austin this year, not to 1 foot but to 2 feet. Looks good so
far.

For a rose with a shape, like a climber, a pillar, a fountain, it gets
trickier. I've managed well with the remove-the-whole-cane approach
except for Lavender Lassie. Tom Liggett warned that it wouldn't produce
new basals after the first few years. And it seems to be true, but it
*does* produce long continuing laterals from the base, i.e. if you cut
it back to a foot, it will throw a long new lateral right from the
bottom. So that kind of growth is its form of a basal, like Altissimo,
except Altissimo produces both new basals and new
low-laterals-that-might-as-well-be basals.

Now a 6 foot upright HT, all barky? I haven't got a clue. I tried to
prune a few at the SJHRG, and since they all grew differently, I pruned
them all differently. A couple had nice shrubby growth, and I tried to
just shape them. That's always my first inclination. I admit, tho, that
if some of the really barky ones were in my garden, I'd whack them hard
just so I wouldn't have to look at that barky base again!

Truth be told, I prune every rose differently. The only two that I have
that grow alike are The Fairy and Sea Foam. I prune them alike: remove
old dead wood from underneath, wait til they leaf out and then cut off
leftover hips and dead tips. Ex post facto pruning.

Cass wrote:

In article , Regina
wrote:

And I am finding that once that is done, they need less and less time
from me, which then of course fully justifies adding more roses. Here's
a zen question for you - can one aspire to be Mack and not prune?

One can, but some roses like the abuse.

The question is, which ones, and how often? Not yearly, surely?

Not me. I watch. If it grew well once, it can do it again, right? So I
start by removing some older canes. But on a short rose like Sunsprite
(mine was only 3-1/2' tall), that just doesn't produce enough of a
change in a single season. Why not a whack every 3 or 4 years?

Yeah, that feels about right to me too.

I also whacked an Austin this year, not to 1 foot but
to 2 feet. Looks good so far.

Which one? And OR or grafted? I have heard that Graham Thomas is more
restrained OR, so I am trying it that way just to see what it will do.

My budded GTs are magnificent. Both had a main cane split by the fierce
winds in December which forces the issue on thinning out the plant. My
hunch is that it will prove to be a good thing. Every winter I trim
back hunks of up to four feet off of the late summer growth on GT. This
winter was even tougher than usual on the plant that is more exposed,
but the remaining plant is so strong. My theory on reblooming on GT is
that it needs the cold, or it needs that kind of cutting back to do
well. Cold winters seem to force the issue.

For a rose with a shape, like a climber, a pillar, a fountain, it gets
trickier. I've managed well with the remove-the-whole-cane approach

My one really well developed fountain (Cl Jackie) hardly ever needs
anything from me now. Getting the mess of stems cleaned out a few years
ago was grueling, but now it's really easy.

Then there's New Dawn, which takes nearly a week of effort from me every
year. And then I stop because I'm sick of getting wrapped up in those
flexible thorny death trap canes. I wore the wrong clothing in the
stint yesterday afternoon and couldn't pull free with my usual abandon.
If I never show up again, look in ND for my body.

except for Lavender Lassie. Tom Liggett warned that it wouldn't produce
new basals after the first few years. And it seems to be true, but it
*does* produce long continuing laterals from the base, i.e. if you cut
it back to a foot, it will throw a long new lateral right from the
bottom. So that kind of growth is its form of a basal,

Interesting.

like Altissimo,
except Altissimo produces both new basals and new
low-laterals-that-might-as-well-be basals.

All of which the raspberry sawfly cane borer *******s ruined last year.
Altissimo has built size here very slowly, but if last year's canes had
been allowed to live, it would be boggling now.

Now a 6 foot upright HT, all barky? I haven't got a clue. I tried to
prune a few at the SJHRG, and since they all grew differently, I pruned
them all differently.

So the key is probably to pay attention the what the rose seems to
need. The hard cut backs can be scary and counterintuitive. And
sometimes necessary.

A couple had nice shrubby growth, and I tried to
just shape them. That's always my first inclination. I admit, tho, that
if some of the really barky ones were in my garden, I'd whack them hard
just so I wouldn't have to look at that barky base again!

Funny how cautious we are with other people's plants.

Truth be told, I prune every rose differently.

Yes, by feel, by experience, and in the interest of experiment.

The only two that I have
that grow alike are The Fairy and Sea Foam. I prune them alike: remove
old dead wood from underneath,

The most important step on all my plants - get that low down stuff that
prevents you from seeing the form.

wait til they leaf out and then cut off
leftover hips and dead tips. Ex post facto pruning.

Prune the structure early, then tip prune what looks messy. That's all
a lot of mine get any more.

Regina

Regina wrote:
Cass wrote:

In article , Regina
wrote:


And I am finding that once that is done, they need less and less time
from me, which then of course fully justifies adding more roses. Here's
a zen question for you - can one aspire to be Mack and not prune?

One can, but some roses like the abuse.

The question is, which ones, and how often? Not yearly, surely?

Not me. I watch. If it grew well once, it can do it again, right? So I
start by removing some older canes. But on a short rose like Sunsprite
(mine was only 3-1/2' tall), that just doesn't produce enough of a
change in a single season. Why not a whack every 3 or 4 years?


Yeah, that feels about right to me too.


I also whacked an Austin this year, not to 1 foot but
to 2 feet. Looks good so far.


Which one? And OR or grafted? I have heard that Graham Thomas is more
restrained OR, so I am trying it that way just to see what it will do.

My budded GTs are magnificent. Both had a main cane split by the fierce
winds in December which forces the issue on thinning out the plant. My
hunch is that it will prove to be a good thing. Every winter I trim
back hunks of up to four feet off of the late summer growth on GT. This
winter was even tougher than usual on the plant that is more exposed,
but the remaining plant is so strong. My theory on reblooming on GT is
that it needs the cold, or it needs that kind of cutting back to do
well. Cold winters seem to force the issue.


For a rose with a shape, like a climber, a pillar, a fountain, it gets
trickier. I've managed well with the remove-the-whole-cane approach


My one really well developed fountain (Cl Jackie) hardly ever needs
anything from me now. Getting the mess of stems cleaned out a few years
ago was grueling, but now it's really easy.

Then there's New Dawn, which takes nearly a week of effort from me every
year. And then I stop because I'm sick of getting wrapped up in those
flexible thorny death trap canes. I wore the wrong clothing in the
stint yesterday afternoon and couldn't pull free with my usual abandon.
If I never show up again, look in ND for my body.


except for Lavender Lassie. Tom Liggett warned that it wouldn't produce
new basals after the first few years. And it seems to be true, but it
*does* produce long continuing laterals from the base, i.e. if you cut
it back to a foot, it will throw a long new lateral right from the
bottom. So that kind of growth is its form of a basal,


Interesting.


like Altissimo,
except Altissimo produces both new basals and new
low-laterals-that-might-as-well-be basals.


All of which the raspberry sawfly cane borer *******s ruined last year.
Altissimo has built size here very slowly, but if last year's canes had
been allowed to live, it would be boggling now.


Now a 6 foot upright HT, all barky? I haven't got a clue. I tried to
prune a few at the SJHRG, and since they all grew differently, I pruned
them all differently.


So the key is probably to pay attention the what the rose seems to
need. The hard cut backs can be scary and counterintuitive. And
sometimes necessary.


A couple had nice shrubby growth, and I tried to
just shape them. That's always my first inclination. I admit, tho, that
if some of the really barky ones were in my garden, I'd whack them hard
just so I wouldn't have to look at that barky base again!


Funny how cautious we are with other people's plants.


Truth be told, I prune every rose differently.


Yes, by feel, by experience, and in the interest of experiment.


The only two that I have
that grow alike are The Fairy and Sea Foam. I prune them alike: remove
old dead wood from underneath,


The most important step on all my plants - get that low down stuff that
prevents you from seeing the form.


wait til they leaf out and then cut off
leftover hips and dead tips. Ex post facto pruning.


Prune the structure early, then tip prune what looks messy. That's all
a lot of mine get any more.

Taking notes on this exchange. Much here that I can confirm both by
experience and by lack thereof. Thanks for the lessons.

I will be sure not to plant a New Dawn unless we inherit a 5 acre plot
of land some day.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Regina
wrote:
Cass wrote:

I also whacked an Austin this year, not to 1 foot but to 2 feet.
Looks good so far.

Which one? And OR or grafted? I have heard that Graham Thomas is
more restrained OR, so I am trying it that way just to see what it
will do.

Grafted Hero, pos. One great flush followed by the rust bloom.

Then there's New Dawn, which takes nearly a week of effort from me
every year. And then I stop because I'm sick of getting wrapped up
in those flexible thorny death trap canes. I wore the wrong clothing
in the stint yesterday afternoon and couldn't pull free with my usual
abandon. If I never show up again, look in ND for my body.

That's a brute. Westerland ripped a hole in my sweat pants, or so I
finally discovered at bedtime after I walked around all day with a vent
on my backside which no one in my family felt the need to mention.