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Old 03-04-2003, 03:56 AM
Susan Solomon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?

Hello again, rose-lovers. I'm trying to learn how to improve my
rose-growing, and am back with another question.

In the exchange with Mike called "Unruly Red Ribbons" Allegra describes
the following way to mulch your rose bed:

Pre-emergent weed killer. Buy yourself a paper shredder and
turn every bit of paper into mulch. First clean the bed well,
apply some weed killer in a calm day so there is no wind
to affect the foliage. Aim only at the ground and do not
spray openly or broadcast the spray. Just make sure to do
it so that it covers the area where the pests are. Next put
your shredded paper all over the bed, covering every inch
of space that you can see. Wet the paper well and then
cover the whole thing with manure or barkdust, whatever
you use for regular mulch. The paper works itself like
a lasagna bed, only that it keeps the weeds under and
allows the worms to do the work.


Well, this sounded great. I got all excited, and I've been collecting
newspapers ever since! I was going to start shredding and mulching ... but
then realized that Allegra lives in Portland, where it rains 4 days a week.
So your newspaper is going to go to mush in a few weeks. However, I live in
Santa Barbara, CA, a high desert; we might only get 4 really big, soaking
rains a year. if I make lasagne, it might take several years for the paper
to decompose, if it ever does! I've occasionally used folded newspaper to
cover the holes in plastic flowerpots, and when I repotted the plants
several years later, often the paper is still in good shape! Am I going to
regret this lasagne making?
Maybe I should just stick with preemergent and bark mulch??!!

Anyhow, the idea still sounds great, and I think I'd still like to try it.
How thick should the paper shreddings be? Just barely covering the dirt, or
covering it thickly? Should I redo this paper mulch under the bark every
year? And do you rake off the bark and save it, or do you till it in? How
about the paper? Should I discard the old paper shreddings and put down new,
or just leave the old and put down more?

Thanks to all -- you've given me a lot of great advice! I really appreciate
your ideas and suggestions. And I'm sure my roses would thank you if they
could!
Sue in SoCal







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Old 03-04-2003, 05:08 PM
Bob Bauer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?

On Thu, 03 Apr 2003 02:50:06 GMT, "Susan Solomon"
wrote:

Maybe I should just stick with preemergent and bark mulch??!!

Anyhow, the idea still sounds great, and I think I'd still like to try it.
How thick should the paper shreddings be? Just barely covering the dirt, or
covering it thickly? Should I redo this paper mulch under the bark every
year? And do you rake off the bark and save it, or do you till it in? How
about the paper? Should I discard the old paper shreddings and put down new,
or just leave the old and put down more?


Don't get weed killer anywhere near your roses! That is insane. It
can kill them.

In fact you don't need any insecticides, herbicides or fungicides for
mulching your roses. PERIOD.

The newspaper idea will work, but with a few changes:

1) Don't shred the paper, but put it down in moderately thick sheets,
layering all over the ground where you don't want anything to pop
through.

2) Next, cover the newspaper thoroughly with bark mulch. If the
newspaper is fully covered with mulch, it will remain moist from your
regular rose waterings, and slowly break down, even in your dry
climate. If it is exposed to the air, it won't break down.

3) Water and fertilize normally

Another great way to mulch roses is to use a thick layer of garden
compost covered with any type of mulch. (Pine needles, bark, nut
hulls, whatever.)

Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
http://www.rose-roses.com/

  #3   Report Post  
Old 03-04-2003, 06:20 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?

Bob Bauer wrote:


Don't get weed killer anywhere near your roses! That is insane. It
can kill them.

In fact you don't need any insecticides, herbicides or fungicides for
mulching your roses. PERIOD.


I'm with Bob, here, Susan. I have had crabgrass pre-emergent for a couple
of years, but have not put it down around my roses where the cg grows,
because I just don't quite trust this stuff with those vital little white
root hairs. I pull it up, apply more mulch, and have used newspapers as
Bob directs below. Even in sheets, if you are watering your roses enough,
they break down surprisingly fast, so that you can poke holes in them even
before they are totally broken down, to let the water through.




The newspaper idea will work, but with a few changes:

1) Don't shred the paper, but put it down in moderately thick sheets,
layering all over the ground where you don't want anything to pop
through.

2) Next, cover the newspaper thoroughly with bark mulch. If the
newspaper is fully covered with mulch, it will remain moist from your
regular rose waterings, and slowly break down, even in your dry
climate. If it is exposed to the air, it won't break down.

3) Water and fertilize normally

Another great way to mulch roses is to use a thick layer of garden
compost covered with any type of mulch. (Pine needles, bark, nut
hulls, whatever.)

Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
http://www.rose-roses.com/















  #4   Report Post  
Old 03-04-2003, 07:08 PM
Susan Solomon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?

Thank you, Bob and Shiva!



"Shiva" wrote in message
news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.e6a98812293a6a141d398de4629a5097 @1049390043.cotse.net...
Bob Bauer wrote:


Don't get weed killer anywhere near your roses! That is insane. It
can kill them.

In fact you don't need any insecticides, herbicides or fungicides for
mulching your roses. PERIOD.


I'm with Bob, here, Susan. I have had crabgrass pre-emergent for a couple
of years, but have not put it down around my roses where the cg grows,
because I just don't quite trust this stuff with those vital little white
root hairs. I pull it up, apply more mulch, and have used newspapers as
Bob directs below. Even in sheets, if you are watering your roses enough,
they break down surprisingly fast, so that you can poke holes in them even
before they are totally broken down, to let the water through.




The newspaper idea will work, but with a few changes:

1) Don't shred the paper, but put it down in moderately thick sheets,
layering all over the ground where you don't want anything to pop
through.

2) Next, cover the newspaper thoroughly with bark mulch. If the
newspaper is fully covered with mulch, it will remain moist from your
regular rose waterings, and slowly break down, even in your dry
climate. If it is exposed to the air, it won't break down.

3) Water and fertilize normally

Another great way to mulch roses is to use a thick layer of garden
compost covered with any type of mulch. (Pine needles, bark, nut
hulls, whatever.)

Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
http://www.rose-roses.com/

















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Old 03-04-2003, 07:32 PM
Allegra
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?


"Susan Solomon wanted to know whether or not a "lasagna" bed would work in
her hot and dry area,

Hello Susan,

Actually the reason to shred the paper was precisely to help it decompose
faster in dry areas such as Tucson where close friends used to live. Their
soil was, well, arid soil and no matter what kind of amendments were put
into it, it remained less than satisfactory unless you planted solely
natives which in those days weren't of interest to them and several phone
calls later I suggested a modified lasagna bed.

Any way, the first thing was to apply a pre-emergent weed killer, a product
that has been used for ever at the test garden here in Portland and in most
botanical gardens without any effect other than to kill the grass and the
weeds for which the label indicates it is appropriate. i.e:

Com-Pleet® 41% Systemic Grass and Weed Killer

New extra strength formulation.
Kills unwanted weeds and grasses.
One pint makes over 10 gallons of finished spray and covers up to 3,200
square feet.
Com-Pleetly kills the root.
Labeled for use around vegetable gardens, fruit trees, flower beds, trees,
shrubs and other residential areas.
Contains Glyphosate.
Available in pint and quart bottles.
for use around: Home Lawn Flowers Vegetables Ornamentals

This is but one of about 200 available in the market. There is also Topgun
Weed Killer
by Safer that you can use after the fact if you don't want to use or forget
or have no access to pre-emergent weed killer, but subscribing to the old
Spanish proverb: "It is better to prevent than to cure" is my motto in the
garden. You can pick and choose the one suggested for your area by simply
asking at your local nursery. One of the advantages of this is that by
killing the roots of the weeds you don't have any competition where you
plant your roses or companion plants to them.

We applied the grass and weed killer also to the paper so it was quite
saturated, and wet
it well. Since nearby where they lived there was a stable, it was a cinch to
get manure
which we spread evenly over the beds we were working on. After that, they
used some of
their compost and we covered everything with small bark which decomposes
faster than the big bark even in Tucson. Their roses, like everyone else's
demanded plenty of water and only when
they started to travel again it became a problem for them to keep up their
gorgeous garden.

I cannot speak for anyone else's experience but in 33 years of growing roses
I have never
killed a rose by applying weed killer, or any other spray. In fact, many a
rescued rose came
with its own luggage of weed roots entangled in her/his own, and only after
pulling and applying
weed killer they were restored and somehow able in a shorter period of time
than it would have happened otherwise, to grow back some root capillaries. I
don't know that everyone understands what pre-emergent weed killer is but a
Google search will tell you the differences between it and others.

At any rate, we have used and will continue to use Preen every Spring with
excellent results all over our garden and every year we have less and less
weeds to deal with, our roses and all the perennials including the closest
to the ground such as our 16 different kind of violets thrive (and the Lily
of the Valley is coming up like crazy which in our case makes for nothing
more than big broad smiles, as my mother used to leave tiny pots with a pip
in bloom every May first on our night tables because we all believe that if
you wake up the first of May with lilies of the valley, you will have beauty
around you all year long) so at least here, we will continue to do what we
are doing.

In Portland actually we have used cardboard and whole newspapers precisely
for the reasons that made you write: "constant rain". By shredding the
newspaper you are allowing a bit of air to come in contact with your soil
while the pre-emergent weed killer stops the potential weeds from taking
advantage of this factor. The little pockets of air allow the manure,
compost and whatever you
add to your soil to actively decompose the paper and if you keep on adding
mulch - which in your area I would suspect is a necessity both for water
conservation and for the sake of the roses - in a couple of years you will
have the most delicious friable soil you could dream of.

If you have any questions and I know the answers I will be happy to give
them to you. Bob and Phyllis were very happy with the result of the modified
lasagna bed in their gardens. They installed a deep irrigation system but it
failed once or twice while they were traveling and they decided that such a
big garden was tying them down. Eventually they sold the property and moved
back to Encino, but the people who bought it I was told were in love with
the roses. Who wouldn't?

And how are your roses doing?

Allegra




  #6   Report Post  
Old 03-04-2003, 09:44 PM
Shiva
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?

Susan Solomon wrote:

Thank you, Bob and Shiva!


You're welcome, Susan. I forgot to say that I, like Bob, use bark mulch for
my roses, laying on several inches a year. It keeps them moist and cool at
the roots AND keeps the weeds down, and makes beautiful black loam. (I use
pine straw on bare roots because it can be piled up around their canes to
keep them moist, and is lighter and so less likely to break off new shoots
when it is removed.)



"Shiva" wrote in message
news:aHlwYXRpYQ==.e6a98812293a6a141d398de4629a5097 @1049390043.cotse.net...
Bob Bauer wrote:


Don't get weed killer anywhere near your roses! That is insane. It
can kill them.

In fact you don't need any insecticides, herbicides or fungicides for
mulching your roses. PERIOD.


I'm with Bob, here, Susan. I have had crabgrass pre-emergent for a

couple
of years, but have not put it down around my roses where the cg grows,
because I just don't quite trust this stuff with those vital little

white
root hairs. I pull it up, apply more mulch, and have used newspapers as
Bob directs below. Even in sheets, if you are watering your roses

enough,
they break down surprisingly fast, so that you can poke holes in them

even
before they are totally broken down, to let the water through.




The newspaper idea will work, but with a few changes:

1) Don't shred the paper, but put it down in moderately thick sheets,
layering all over the ground where you don't want anything to pop
through.

2) Next, cover the newspaper thoroughly with bark mulch. If the
newspaper is fully covered with mulch, it will remain moist from your
regular rose waterings, and slowly break down, even in your dry
climate. If it is exposed to the air, it won't break down.

3) Water and fertilize normally

Another great way to mulch roses is to use a thick layer of garden
compost covered with any type of mulch. (Pine needles, bark, nut
hulls, whatever.)

Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
http://www.rose-roses.com/






























































  #7   Report Post  
Old 03-04-2003, 09:56 PM
Susan Solomon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?

Allegra, thank you for your response!
I appreciate your in-depth explanation of newspaper mulch. And thank you for
explaining preemergent sprays. I had understood that all they killed were
germinating weed seeds! Hmm. A lot to digest. I'm concerned about the spray,
because I've got pets who roam and flop down wherever I'm working. I'll have
to do some more reading before using it. But I've got my newspapers and my
bags of bark mulch! I'm ready for action!

And since you asked about my roses ...
First, my garden is less than 6 months old. Half of the roses were in 5 gal.
pots before going into the ground last Dec, so they had very little
transplant shock; most now have buds showing color and some blooms. The rest
are bare roots from my January madness; all but one have leafed out and are
growing vigorously. My little rose garden is looking quite lovely! :-)

Again, thanks to you and all of the rose growers of this group! It's great
to have so many people with such a wealth of information to share! All this
information so readily available!
And I enjoy seeing everyone's rose pictures on their websites!

Sue in SoCal


"Allegra" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Susan Solomon wanted to know whether or not a "lasagna" bed would work in
her hot and dry area,

Hello Susan,

Actually the reason to shred the paper was precisely to help it decompose
faster in dry areas such as Tucson where close friends used to live. Their
soil was, well, arid soil and no matter what kind of amendments were put
into it, it remained less than satisfactory unless you planted solely
natives which in those days weren't of interest to them and several phone
calls later I suggested a modified lasagna bed.

Any way, the first thing was to apply a pre-emergent weed killer, a

product
that has been used for ever at the test garden here in Portland and in

most
botanical gardens without any effect other than to kill the grass and the
weeds for which the label indicates it is appropriate. i.e:

Com-Pleet® 41% Systemic Grass and Weed Killer

New extra strength formulation.
Kills unwanted weeds and grasses.
One pint makes over 10 gallons of finished spray and covers up to 3,200
square feet.
Com-Pleetly kills the root.
Labeled for use around vegetable gardens, fruit trees, flower beds, trees,
shrubs and other residential areas.
Contains Glyphosate.
Available in pint and quart bottles.
for use around: Home Lawn Flowers Vegetables Ornamentals

This is but one of about 200 available in the market. There is also Topgun
Weed Killer
by Safer that you can use after the fact if you don't want to use or

forget
or have no access to pre-emergent weed killer, but subscribing to the old
Spanish proverb: "It is better to prevent than to cure" is my motto in the
garden. You can pick and choose the one suggested for your area by simply
asking at your local nursery. One of the advantages of this is that by
killing the roots of the weeds you don't have any competition where you
plant your roses or companion plants to them.

We applied the grass and weed killer also to the paper so it was quite
saturated, and wet
it well. Since nearby where they lived there was a stable, it was a cinch

to
get manure
which we spread evenly over the beds we were working on. After that, they
used some of
their compost and we covered everything with small bark which decomposes
faster than the big bark even in Tucson. Their roses, like everyone else's
demanded plenty of water and only when
they started to travel again it became a problem for them to keep up their
gorgeous garden.

I cannot speak for anyone else's experience but in 33 years of growing

roses
I have never
killed a rose by applying weed killer, or any other spray. In fact, many a
rescued rose came
with its own luggage of weed roots entangled in her/his own, and only

after
pulling and applying
weed killer they were restored and somehow able in a shorter period of

time
than it would have happened otherwise, to grow back some root capillaries.

I
don't know that everyone understands what pre-emergent weed killer is but

a
Google search will tell you the differences between it and others.

At any rate, we have used and will continue to use Preen every Spring with
excellent results all over our garden and every year we have less and less
weeds to deal with, our roses and all the perennials including the closest
to the ground such as our 16 different kind of violets thrive (and the

Lily
of the Valley is coming up like crazy which in our case makes for nothing
more than big broad smiles, as my mother used to leave tiny pots with a

pip
in bloom every May first on our night tables because we all believe that

if
you wake up the first of May with lilies of the valley, you will have

beauty
around you all year long) so at least here, we will continue to do what we
are doing.

In Portland actually we have used cardboard and whole newspapers precisely
for the reasons that made you write: "constant rain". By shredding the
newspaper you are allowing a bit of air to come in contact with your soil
while the pre-emergent weed killer stops the potential weeds from taking
advantage of this factor. The little pockets of air allow the manure,
compost and whatever you
add to your soil to actively decompose the paper and if you keep on adding
mulch - which in your area I would suspect is a necessity both for water
conservation and for the sake of the roses - in a couple of years you will
have the most delicious friable soil you could dream of.

If you have any questions and I know the answers I will be happy to give
them to you. Bob and Phyllis were very happy with the result of the

modified
lasagna bed in their gardens. They installed a deep irrigation system but

it
failed once or twice while they were traveling and they decided that such

a
big garden was tying them down. Eventually they sold the property and

moved
back to Encino, but the people who bought it I was told were in love with
the roses. Who wouldn't?

And how are your roses doing?

Allegra




  #10   Report Post  
Old 04-04-2003, 01:44 AM
Allegra
 
Posts: n/a
Default Lasagna Rose Beds?


"Huskies4all" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
says...
splinters from bark dust into her tiny paws. As a result I have never

had to
worry about the effect of the pre-emergent weed killer on them. I guess

dogs
have stronger skin or something like that since they don't seem to mind
walking over bark or even hot asphalt at times.


I'll jump right in here with a timely piece of information. I'm a
Certified Veterinary Technician, and this week we treated a cat for
exposure to a weed killer that contained Glyphosate (sp?)

Talk about one SICK cat. She was completely listless, couldn't keep any
food down for a couple of days, which in cats, can be a BIG problem. SO,
I wouldn't recommend putting anything on that a cat could get into
contact with.

Dogs are more resistant, cats are sensitive to EVERYTHING, they can't
even take aspirin. However, I'd still be hesitant to use it if a dog
might get into it.

CJ

PS, the cat's fine, went home yesterday after 2 days in the hospital.


Hello CJ

According to the EPA these are the trade names of the products using
Glyphosate.

Glialka
Roundup
Sting
Rodeo
Spasor
Muster
Tumbleweed
Sonic
Glifonox
Glycel
Rondo

You may want to go to
http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/dwh/c-soc/glyphosa.html
and look there for more info if you think it will help you when you advise
your
patients.

How was the cat exposed to it, by the way? Ate it, walked in fresh exposed
area,
was it an outside cat? There are so many factors here to be considered, but
the most
important one is that I know of not a single pre-emergent weed killer that
has any form
of Glyphosate in its formula. At least none of the ones we have used or use
presently.

For more information you can go to
http://www.scotts.com/growMag/2003Ma...ntrol_zone.htm

where a master gardener explains the uses and how to of pre-emergent weed
killers.

I do not believe that animals should be allowed to roam the gardens while
one is engaged
in either planting or spraying. We have been very careful to spray always at
dusk, downwind,
and preferably after we know given their almost recognizable schedule for
instance with
our hummingbirds, when they are not to return for the day at our home to
feed. Then and
only then BH has gone out properly suited to spray. We have never had a
problem with
either our dogs or our cats. But I believe these to be personal choices
which in no way
should be interpreted to be a criticism or a reproach to any pet owner.

However since you refer to Glyphosate I thought I must bring up the subject
once again that pre-emergent weed killers and "regular" weed killers are not
one and the same. And good for the kitty and shame to the parents that
allowed her/him to be exposed to a pesticide.

Allegra




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